Post-Game Talk: Jets win 4 - 3

[Bob E]

Disagree. If you believe that, then I suggest you watch the games closer and more importantly, their recent board-work and puck support.

I watch very closely. And have all season.

The board work has to lead to something. Once they have the puck, it then becomes how they move the puck, and where they move the puck.

Maybe they have someone open to pass to now?

 

[YWGinYYZ]

I watch very closely. And have all season.

As do others - those were your words, not mine. Just suggesting that it's a poor debate tactic.

 

[scelaton]

Amazes me that people continually hold long time players of the franchise in high regard and refuse to believe they may not be as good as they once were.
As they age, this list will continue to grow.

Speaking of beliefs, the facts don't really support yours.
Little has struggled this year, but much of it has been carrying the two offensive wuderkinds, who, frankly, have sucked defensively at times. L/E aside, the past few games have not been his best and now a bunch of people have a bad case of recency bias. Interestingly, after all that, Little's numbers this year still won't be far off his median production (47 pt/season) since he has been a Jet. And he is on track to be healthier than he has been for most of his career. To say he in the midst of an inexorable decline is a stretch.
In comparison, Stastny's career numbers are very close to Little's although his point production this season projects to be a bit higher than his median over the same 5 yr period as Little (49 pts/season excluding the lockout). But he is two years older than Little, so it's pretty hard to suggest he will resist decline more than Bryan over the next few years. TBH, they are both aging very well, thank you.
I think Stastny is a terrific player and a great acquisition, but Little deserves way, way, WAAYY Y more respect than he gets around here.

 

[Bob E]

As do others - those were your words, not mine. Just suggesting that it's a poor debate tactic.

Ok. Then i’ll talk about what I see.

In the dzone I see more movement, and an outlet for a pass to control zone exit, more than I’ve seen with Little. Copp was better, but Stastny is much more consistent at being in the right position to support the play.

He also controls the puck better than Little. I see our C’s having trouble controlling the puck while exiting the zone. Scheifele is fine, but puck control is not a strength of Little’s, imo. Never has. The rush dies on Little’s stick too often, or he loses control. Little’s strength is battling to get the puck back once it’s lost, and short passes in the ozone. It’s not controlling the puck to move it quickly through the neutral zone to go on the attack.

In the ozone, Stastny is better at reading the play of Ehlers and Laine, supports board play by being available along the boards, or moves to open ice to be available for a pass. But rarely gets out of position defensively and is always ready to peal back to protect against an odd man rush.

Copp was good at supporting a rushing Ehlers, as is Stastny. Perhaps another way to explain it is Little is looking to be the shooter on the line, and not the playmaker, while Copp and Stastny are comfortable with being a set up man for Laine or Ehlers.

 

[Bob E]

Speaking of beliefs, the facts don't really support yours.
Little has struggled this year, but much of it has been carrying the two offensive wuderkinds, who, frankly, have sucked defensively at times. L/E aside, the past few games have not been his best and now a bunch of people have a bad case of recency bias. Interestingly, after all that, Little's numbers this year still won't be far off his median production (47 pt/season) since he has been a Jet. And he is on track to be healthier than he has been for most of his career. To say he in the midst of an inexorable decline is a stretch.
In comparison, Stastny's career numbers are very close to Little's although his point production this season projects to be a bit higher than his median over the same 5 yr period as Little (49 pts/season excluding the lockout). But he is two years older than Little, so it's pretty hard to suggest he will resist decline more than Bryan over the next few years. TBH, they are both aging very well, thank you.
I think Stastny is a terrific player and a great acquisition, but Little deserves way, way, WAAYY Y more respect than he gets around here.

It’s more about playing style and meshing with your line mates. Little is not the right fit for Ehlers and Laine.

He works hard and battles. But he’s not an elite offensive player, imo.

 

[Bob E]

Speaking of beliefs, the facts don't really support yours.
Little has struggled this year, but much of it has been carrying the two offensive wuderkinds, who, frankly, have sucked defensively at times. L/E aside, the past few games have not been his best and now a bunch of people have a bad case of recency bias. Interestingly, after all that, Little's numbers this year still won't be far off his median production (47 pt/season) since he has been a Jet. And he is on track to be healthier than he has been for most of his career. To say he in the midst of an inexorable decline is a stretch.
In comparison, Stastny's career numbers are very close to Little's although his point production this season projects to be a bit higher than his median over the same 5 yr period as Little (49 pts/season excluding the lockout). But he is two years older than Little, so it's pretty hard to suggest he will resist decline more than Bryan over the next few years. TBH, they are both aging very well, thank you.
I think Stastny is a terrific player and a great acquisition, but Little deserves way, way, WAAYY Y more respect than he gets around here.

How has Little struggled?

Putting up points? Playing with those two for most of the time should help your points total. Maybe he misses Wheeler, who may have helped his point totals in years past.

Playing too defensively by having to cover for them? I’d argue he has been just as lapse defensively and not covering who he needs to well enough at times also.

I’m not sure Little will be a 50 point player this year. But will be paid as one for the next 6 years.

 

[Bob E]

Now, if we find out that Little has been battling an injury that has affected his play, that could be a solid reason and holds out hope that his play and production could improve.

 

[Ducky10]

Next home game you attend, watch our dzone breakout closely. In particular, watch where Little is positioned on the ice, more often than not. Then watch Stastny with Ehlers and Laine, and where he is.

Watch what direction they are moving, how they are moving and where. Then we can have a follow up discussion.

I've bèen watching their D zone breakout all year but sure.

 

[Ducky10]

Ok. Then i’ll talk about what I see.

In the dzone I see more movement, and an outlet for a pass to control zone exit, more than I’ve seen with Little. Copp was better, but Stastny is much more consistent at being in the right position to support the play.

He also controls the puck better than Little. I see our C’s having trouble controlling the puck while exiting the zone. Scheifele is fine, but puck control is not a strength of Little’s, imo. Never has. The rush dies on Little’s stick too often, or he loses control. Little’s strength is battling to get the puck back once it’s lost, and short passes in the ozone. It’s not controlling the puck to move it quickly through the neutral zone to go on the attack.

In the ozone, Stastny is better at reading the play of Ehlers and Laine, supports board play by being available along the boards, or moves to open ice to be available for a pass. But rarely gets out of position defensively and is always ready to peal back to protect against an odd man rush.

Copp was good at supporting a rushing Ehlers, as is Stastny. Perhaps another way to explain it is Little is looking to be the shooter on the line, and not the playmaker, while Copp and Stastny are comfortable with being a set up man for Laine or Ehlers.

Stastny has played two games for crying out loud. Sorry, I really don't see much issue with Little's play through the middle of the ice or being a good outlet on the breakout. Its very rare Little gets caught too high in the zone and he's one of the best supporting down low.

Personally I see a much bigger difference in Ehlers and moreso Laine's game that has led to the difference. That's not to say Stastny isn't the right fit, but I don't think it matters much which centre not named Hendricks is playing with them the way they are going.

 

[Ducky10]

It’s more about playing style and meshing with your line mates. Little is not the right fit for Ehlers and Laine.

He works hard and battles. But he’s not an elite offensive player, imo.

Define elite offensive player? Little may not be one but then neither is Stastny.

If your main description of Little is that he works hard and battles, then perhaps you need to look closer.

 

[Bob E]

Stastny has played two games for crying out loud. Sorry, I really don't see much issue with Little's play through the middle of the ice or being a good outlet on the breakout. Its very rare Little gets caught too high in the zone and he's one of the best supporting down low.

Personally I see a much bigger difference in Ehlers and moreso Laine's game that has led to the difference. That's not to say Stastny isn't the right fit, but I don't think it matters much which centre not named Hendricks is playing with them the way they are going.

I guess I’m not seeing the big changes in Ehlers game. In fact, they still struggle to get pucks out. Laine’s turnover directly led to the 3rd goal against Wings.

But they are having more 5v5 scoring success since they left Little. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

 

[Bob E]

Define elite offensive player? Little may not be one but then neither is Stastny.

If your main description of Little is that he works hard and battles, then perhaps you need to look closer.

Look closer for what? What exactly does he do well, or better than Stastny for instance?

 

[Bob E]

I've bèen watching their D zone breakout all year but sure.

Then tell me what you feel the issues are.

 

[Ducky10]

Look closer for what? What exactly does he do well, or better than Stastny for instance?

Produce points? I don't think he's necessarily a better player than Stastny but he's certainly as good. Honestly, I need to give you a list of what Little does well?

 

[Ducky10]

Then tell me what you feel the issues are.

What issues? Ehlers and Laine?

Early on it was Laine's inabilty to move the puck quickly enough or move his feet to change the breakout option slightly, even to just drive it himself, which he is doing more of. He's also getting back in the zone faster and making himself an option sometimes down low and sometimes higher up, for the D to transition the puck to quickly before the forecheck is set up. He himself is moving through the middle of the ice faster.

Ehlers is flying the zone less and playing a much more straight line game, not exclusively, but he has been much better in getting straight up the ice, as well as not isolating himself.

All teams struggle to get the puck out once the forecheck is set up, especially against an active D like Nashville. The Jets gave them fits as well at times, I don't view those situations as a big part of their breakout strategy, it's an all hands on deck strategy once a couple of breakdowns occur.

 

[Ducky10]

I guess I’m not seeing the big changes in Ehlers game. In fact, they still struggle to get pucks out. Laine’s turnover directly led to the 3rd goal against Wings.

But they are having more 5v5 scoring success since they left Little. I don’t think that’s a coincidence.

Laine's turnover against the Wings was a poor choice by him, something he's done a lot less of. Even still, he at least made that move high in the zone and was not as the last guy back, he didn't have much support if I recall correctly. He could have got it out safely but that goal was a complete clown car show that he was simply a part of.

 

[Bob E]

Produce points? I don't think he's necessarily a better player than Stastny but he's certainly as good. Honestly, I need to give you a list of what Little does well?

My point is, Ehlers and Laine do not mesh with Little. I’m not a Little hater, though I am a Ehlers-Little-Laine hater.

I do think Stastny is a smart player. A responsible player. Seems to always be in good position, which helps Ehlers and Laine. He also controls the puck well, better than Little, which helps. I think if he plays with Ehlers and Laine on a regular basis, he could be a 60-70 point player. While I don’t think Little would score 50 points with the two. Ehlers and Laine style fits better with a certain player type. If they split them up, then everything changes.

Question is, Little may be heading into a stage in his career he doesn’t produce as many points. He didn’t with Ehlers and Laine. Or Laine and Perreault. Now he’s producing less with Perreault and Roslovic. Is he still effective? Sure as a 40 point 3rd line c. But he’s being paid as a 50+ point c.

 

[Bob E]

What issues? Ehlers and Laine?

Early on it was Laine's inabilty to move the puck quickly enough or move his feet to change the breakout option slightly, even to just drive it himself, which he is doing more of. He's also getting back in the zone faster and making himself an option sometimes down low and sometimes higher up, for the D to transition the puck to quickly before the forecheck is set up. He himself is moving through the middle of the ice faster.

Ehlers is flying the zone less and playing a much more straight line game, not exclusively, but he has been much better in getting straight up the ice, as well as not isolating himself.

All teams struggle to get the puck out once the forecheck is set up, especially against an active D like Nashville. The Jets gave them fits as well at times, I don't view those situations as a big part of their breakout strategy, it's an all hands on deck strategy once a couple of breakdowns occur.

Teams are taking away the boards. Pinching down. Need different outlets and available players. Stastny makes himself available. Which helps.

Many times there are simple plays to make to exit the zone with possession, Jets struggle at times and some lines more than others.

During the Wings game, part way through third, Perreault and Little couldn’t execute a controlled breakout and Wings simply sent the puck back in over and over.

 

[Ippenator]

Because they're simplifying their game, and Laine is playing a much stronger game on the boards. This would have been possible even with Little, but I believe both factors are contributing. Their individual play is also better, regardless of who's centering them.

Tantalizingly: I think we're only just starting to see what the kids can do playing wing with Stastny.

[mod] Everyone who plays with Little, their production happens to fall off the face of the earth, unless their names are Wheeler or Perreault. That should tell pretty much what the problem is with Little.

To me it is absolutely certain that if ELL would be put back together, it would be the exact same disaster that it has been so far. It’s about the playstyles and the absolute lack of chemistry. No better board play will change much in that. Just wishful thinking and obvious desperate Little defending here.

Little is defensively a fine player, but unfortunately he holds down his linemates offensively. That’s why he shouldn’t really play as much minutes as he is playing now, as the Jets have a better offensive option in Stastny.

And I don’t care about their career stats, but in what they are at the moment, and what the eye test very clearly shows me now - that Stastny is a much better playmaker than Little at the moment. And that is what the Jets have been very much needing for a while already.

 

[10Ducky10]

The Jets definitely needed another center that can put up points and plays D well but let's not take anything away from Little. His line has been the best line on the ice some nights. I honestly think he has a nagging injury. Has he missed any practices? I also like the line chemistry he has with MP and Roslo.

 

[YWGinYYZ]

No better board play will change much in that. Just wishful thinking and obvious desperate Little defending here.

I'm not focusing on Little here - I'm discussing Laine's improved play, which has been very promising the last 5-10 games. If he can maintain his fantastic offensive game while improving his defensive game and puck protection, he'll become even more dangerous than he is.

IMO, I think this is a good thing.

 

[mazmin]

My point is, Ehlers and Laine do not mesh with Little. I’m not a Little hater, though I am a Ehlers-Little-Laine hater.

I do think Stastny is a smart player. A responsible player. Seems to always be in good position, which helps Ehlers and Laine. He also controls the puck well, better than Little, which helps. I think if he plays with Ehlers and Laine on a regular basis, he could be a 60-70 point player. While I don’t think Little would score 50 points with the two. Ehlers and Laine style fits better with a certain player type. If they split them up, then everything changes.

Question is, Little may be heading into a stage in his career he doesn’t produce as many points. He didn’t with Ehlers and Laine. Or Laine and Perreault. Now he’s producing less with Perreault and Roslovic. Is he still effective? Sure as a 40 point 3rd line c. But he’s being paid as a 50+ point c.

My take on this:

Back when Little was on the top line with Wheeler he produced like a 1C and no one complained. Good defensively, could hit 60 points on a good year.

Once Scheifele asserted himself as elite top line C then Little became #2 and his production reflects that.

Now that Stastny is here and meshed better with Ehlers and Laine, Little's scoring drops again.

It's 100% logical and I'm not worried about it. It's nice to have this type of depth, especially if an injury occurs down the middle.

 

[Ducky10]

Teams are taking away the boards. Pinching down. Need different outlets and available players. Stastny makes himself available. Which helps.

Many times there are simple plays to make to exit the zone with possession, Jets struggle at times and some lines more than others.

During the Wings game, part way through third, Perreault and Little couldn’t execute a controlled breakout and Wings simply sent the puck back in over and over.

Neithet could Scheifele or Wheeler. Stastsny's line was good that game for sure but the issue's in the game went far beyond the Little and Scheifele lines being able to break out cleanly. The D helped immensely, apart from Buff and Morrissey.

Little has been one the Jets top centres at making thr simple play to exit the zone, he's positionally as sound a hockey player as the Jets have had. I'm shocked that's even a debate.

He hasn't worked with Ehlers and Laine, no doubt. I'm not advocating a return to that, just there are other reasons for it not being effective outside of Little's inability to create offense.

 

[Ducky10]

Anyway, back to Laine. I love how much more assertive he has looked, he's coming up the ice with more speed with and without the puck and it's causing problems for opposing teams. He's also been much harder on the puck in the offensive zone. Only 19, so exciting to think of him in only a year or two.

 

[SLAYER]

Anyway, back to Laine. I love how much more assertive he has looked, he's coming up the ice with more speed with and without the puck and it's causing problems for opposing teams. He's also been much harder on the puck in the offensive zone. Only 19, so exciting to think of him in only a year or two.

Agreed. I can't wait to see playoffs Laine. After watching a lot of his work from his Liiga championship run, it's exciting thinking what he can become.