Player Discussion Jesse Puljujärvi 4th Overall 2016 Draft. Part V: Called Up 11/10/17

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GameChanger

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Pulju is presently having repeated stints with Draisaitl. How is tht not topsix?

I thought you would understand the difference of having a regular spot in a line for at least some games in a row to the way Jesse has been used. So he's got some occasional shifts with Drai, maybe a period, before his line has been shuffled. Or have I missed something? If I have you may freely correct me.

The last time Drai and him played together Drai was plain terrible. Or is that Jesse's fault, too?

Maybe I should emphasize again, so that there's no misunderstanding, that Jesse can do and should do better than lately. But during the last monts there's usually been at least one hindrance out of the following ones (besides all the line shuffling):

- a winger as his center
- Camalleri or Lucic on one side
- playing on his off wing
(-sitting on the benc for long whiles even when there's no logical reason)

These kind of issues are often mentioned to defend other players (especially you with Drai), so why wouldn't they affect Jesse's game, too.
 
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Drivesaitl

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You may have some point there, but I honestly believe a part of you thinking they're terrible is because you haven't liked the grades or reviews they've given to Drai this season. He's had some terrific games, but more bad games that he maybe should've for his salary. And I know you don't like hearing that, you know that too.

Drai is a young guy and may have something against TM, too, so I understand him quite well, but he does have room for development there. Think about it, he may have some great games, but also games where he gets the lowest grades of the forwards and where the other fans see his game bad or terrible. So maybe it's not as easy to keep one's highest level game after game as you seem to expect from Jesse.

E: I had counted the player grades during Jesse's nine first games, and at that time Jesse's was the highest of the team and Drai's average and behind Lucic, Pakarinen, Caggiula and Camalleri.

Anybody here knows my opinion on Staples, Jones, and Matheson, nor is it an isolated opinion and it has nothing at all to do with Pulju. Being that I've had the opinion on those Journalists for at least a dozen years.

I can't believe we're having a discussion between a player that is essentially a ppg player that constantly drives offense vs someone that has 25 career pts and who can't feed himself even when being babysat by some of the best players in the world in McD and Drai. Really it should be next to impossible for Pulju to not succeed here. Why have McD or Drai done significantly better? Other than just being much better players with much more adaptable game and that understand an NA game.

As I stated before it was a mistake for Pulju not to play NA hockey here subsequent to, or before draft. Euro players that do come here to learn to play the NA game often do better.

One of the reasons stated that Chia wanted to move out some of the vets and provide opportunity is that so this orgs current prospects, get a chance to perform, get minutes, and significantly that they get better in order to make constructive use of those minutes. This org wanted players like Nuge, Pulju, Strome, Slepy, Khaira to take their game to a different level. That's what this org believed these players could do.

Nuge and Khaira have answered that bell and improved. Strome and Slepy have tried hard but without progress. They've remained the same kind of player. Pulju is a wildcard that was being groomed to play a prominent topsix role. That was the plan here from the offseason. When Pulju failed to even make the team out of preseason that plan was impacted. That Yamamoto was twice as good as Pulju I think caused a lot of concern and rethinks, but albeit at that time it was too late for the club to make huge adjustments for the season.

I can't imagine that the org are anything but disappointed in who they picked. The org looking at Tkachuk several times a year are probably concluded the pick was a mistake. Its an odd one too. Because nothing in Pulju's game speaks to Chia or McLellan. They would both tend to prefer a Tkachuk.
 

CycloneSweep

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Anybody here knows my opinion on Staples, Jones, and Matheson, nor is it an isolated opinion and it has nothing at all to do with Pulju. Being that I've had the opinion on those Journalists for at least a dozen years.

I can't believe we're having a discussion between a player that is essentially a ppg player that constantly drives offense vs someone that has 25 career pts and who can't feed himself even when being babysat by some of the best players in the world in McD and Drai. Really it should be next to impossible for Pulju to not succeed here. Why have McD or Drai done significantly better? Other than just being much better players with much more adaptable game and that understand an NA game.

As I stated before it was a mistake for Pulju not to play NA hockey here subsequent to, or before draft. Euro players that do come here to learn to play the NA game often do better.

One of the reasons stated that Chia wanted to move out some of the vets and provide opportunity is that so this orgs current prospects, get a chance to perform, get minutes, and significantly that they get better in order to make constructive use of those minutes. This org wanted players like Nuge, Pulju, Strome, Slepy, Khaira to take their game to a different level. That's what this org believed these players could do.

Nuge and Khaira have answered that bell and improved. Strome and Slepy have tried hard but without progress. They've remained the same kind of player. Pulju is a wildcard that was being groomed to play a prominent topsix role. That was the plan here from the offseason. When Pulju failed to even make the team out of preseason that plan was impacted. That Yamamoto was twice as good as Pulju I think caused a lot of concern and rethinks, but albeit at that time it was too late for the club to make huge adjustments for the season.

I can't imagine that the org are anything but disappointed in who they picked. The org looking at Tkachuk several times a year are probably concluded the pick was a mistake. Its an odd one too. Because nothing in Pulju's game speaks to Chia or McLellan. They would both tend to prefer a Tkachuk.
To be honest I think their guy was Juolevi at 4 if Pulju didnt drop.

It actually looked like they were planning on trading down to 5 or 6 to pick him.
 

Drivesaitl

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I thought you would understand the difference of having a regular spot in a line for at least some games in a row to the way Jesse has been used. So he's got some occasional shifts with Drai, maybe a period, before his line has been shuffled. Or have I missed something? If I have you may freely correct me.

The last time Drai and him played together Drai was plain terrible. Or is that Jesse's fault, too?

Maybe I should emphasize again, so that there's no misunderstanding, that Jesse can do and should do better than lately. But during the last monts there's usually been at least one hindrance out of the following ones (besides all the line shuffling):

- a winger as his center
- Camalleri or Lucic on one side
- playing on his off wing
(-sitting on the benc for long whiles even when there's no logical reason)

These kind of issues are often mentioned to defend other players (especially you with Drai), so why wouldn't they affect Jesse's game, too.

Drai was very good in both of the Florida matches. he played better than Barkov in the Florida game. He was solid again yesterday and prominent in all zone play, in preventing GA, in setting up team mates etc. Drai is making around 8 productive plays a game that result in scoring chances by my eye. I seldom see Pulju creating a scoring chance.

I do think its disruptive for players to have different linemates a lot of the time but Drai has certainly experienced this as well as has everybody on the club. One of the consequences of a team being bad, and not scoring nearly enough, and not having a decent PP, is lines changing a lot of the time.

Other than Drai, McD, Nuge, there has been no forward on this club that have looked to play well with, or elevate other players. Drai has succeeded fairly consistently in elevating the games of even Cammaleri, Caggiula, Slepychev, Strome, Khaira. I honestly wanted to see what Pulju could do with him. I've been pretty disappointed. if that changes, my opinion will change.

Even Strome, in fairness is trying really hard and had half a dozen scoring chances in the last game. you could see how much he was working on each shift. Can't finish to save his life but the work rate was there. I would even take that with Pulju. If he gave honest effort.
 

GameChanger

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I can't believe we're having a discussion between a player that is essentially a ppg player that constantly drives offense vs someone that has 25 career pts and who can't feed himself even when being babysat by some of the best players in the world in McD and Drai. Really it should be next to impossible for Pulju to not succeed here. Why have McD or Drai done significantly better? Other than just being much better players with much more adaptable game and that understand an NA game.

First of all, we're not talking about that. Only you are now turning it to that because you can't take criticism over Drai. Drai is a good example because he happens to be your favourite player and one of the most incosistent forwards in the team. So he should serve as an example why it's not that easy for younger players to avoid harder games and more difficult times. As I said, you won't accept this so I'm not surprised.

As for Puljujarvi, you honestly are not seeing the whole picture in how he did with McDavid. It's only the last stretch of games where he failed to produce. A part of that is explained by Pulju himself, but part by the way the team played at time (remember the 0-5 losses) and that McDavid had some of his worst games at that time, too. In fact Lucic-McDavid-Pulju was clearly better for the team than Drai and McDavid have been at even strength. But no, I'm not saying Pulju is currently at the same level as Drai, but maybe his defensive game worked with McDavid as was often written here by the others.

Any other times Pulju has done fine if not great there.
 

Drivesaitl

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Puljujarvi at 19 .33 PPg still learning language Draisaitl at 19 .24 ppg 5 years in north america full command of english language Puljujarvi is tied with Kharia for most current goals for Oiler wingers .

Khaira is a 63rd pick. A draft number that invariably usually produces AHL, if anything players. He's vastly exceeded his pick and expected worth through some hard work, determination, willing to do extras, even fighting for the club, and has risen to the point where he is contributing far more than Pulju is to the team.

Pulju is an expected 3rd pick.

Sure Khaira has more experience but that shouldn't matter as much as it has considering the respective expected pedigrees of the players.
If we're really comparing a 3rd pick with a 63pick, and wherein the latter has clearly performed better, what is it saying about the former?
 

Drivesaitl

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First of all, we're not talking about that. Only you are now turning it to that because you can't take criticism over Drai. Drai is a good example because he happens to be your favourite player and one of the most incosistent forwards in the team. So he should serve as an example why it's not that easy for younger players to avoid harder games and more difficult times. As I said, you won't accept this so I'm not surprised.

As for Puljujarvi, you honestly are not seeing the whole picture in how he did with McDavid. It's only the last stretch of games where he failed to produce. A part of that is explained by Pulju himself, but part by the way the team played at time (remember the 0-5 losses) and that McDavid had some of his worst games at that time, too. In fact Lucic-McDavid-Pulju was clearly better for the team than Drai and McDavid have been at even strength. But no, I'm not saying Pulju is currently at the same level as Drai, but maybe his defensive game worked with McDavid as was often written here by the others.

Any other times Pulju has done fine if not great there.

How has Drai been "one of the most inconsistent players on the team" when he has only two stints all season where he has gone 3 games without a point? On the team ONLY McD has been more consistent. (he has one 3 game pointless streak)

The bolded is just mysterious.

These are simply inaccurate statements.

I don't even know how somebody could think them to be true.

The 3 most consistent forwards on this team this season are McD, Drai, Nuge. In that order.

Last season the most consistent were; McD, Drai, Maroon. In that order.

In the playoffs Drai was the best Oiler, Even considerably better than McD. Drai seemed to take naturally to the playoffs despite being sick in the first round.

The Year before it was Hall, Drai, McD (McD was injured most of the season)


So who's name is in there EVERY season as one of the most consistent Oilers forwards?

The guy you claim is "one of the most inconsistent forwards on the team"


If you're joking let me know.
 

VainGretzky

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Khaira is a 63rd pick. A draft number that invariably usually produces AHL, if anything players. He's vastly exceeded his pick and expected worth through some hard work, determination, willing to do extras, even fighting for the club, and has risen to the point where he is contributing far more than Pulju is to the team.

Pulju is an expected 3rd pick.

Sure Khaira has more experience but that shouldn't matter as much as it has considering the respective expected pedigrees of the players.
If we're really comparing a 3rd pick with a 63pick, and wherein the latter has clearly performed better, what is it saying about the former?
Avs should of given up on Rantanen as well at 19 and determined him a bust like you're doing with Puljujarvi , and others did with Draisaitl , trust me all theses posts you're making determining he is a bust is going to make you look pretty foolish in the future. Not every player jumps into the NHL and is a star at the start regardless of draft billing Marchand had 1 point in his first 20 NHL games was a 40-50 point tweener despite playing with high end talent player development is not linear , if so draft selections would be perfect every year from 1st to 210 . You seem like the only one who has taken exception to why Puljujarvi is not killing it . What were your comments on Draisaitl 19 year season when so many were calling him a bust ?
 

GameChanger

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Drai was very good in both of the Florida matches. he played better than Barkov in the Florida game. He was solid again yesterday and prominent in all zone play, in preventing GA, in setting up team mates etc. Drai is making around 8 productive plays a game that result in scoring chances by my eye. I seldom see Pulju creating a scoring chance.

I thought the game against San Jose was the last one they really played together. Here's the EJ's take on that game:

#29 Leon Draisaitl, 2. Not all bad, but mostly bad. Let’s start with the obvious: he was on the ice for all 4 San Jose goals and none by the Oilers. While he did chip in to 6 Oilers scoring chances on the night, he was culpable on 8 against, a lousy number, including direct involvement in all 4 of those goals against. Led the Oilers with 3 giveaways, a bad one leading directly to the first Sharks counter. Had another fine night on the dot (12/17=71%) but lost a key draw on the PK that led directly to a goal. Failed to fill the shooting lane and contributed to the screen on Montoya on the 3-3 goal, seconds after he had failed to get a pass through on a 2-on-1 at the other end. Finally, turned the puck over inside his own line on the game winner (officially, a takeaway by eventual goal scorer Tomas Hertl, but a key battle lost however you slice it). “2” is a harsh grade for his overall performance but the bottom line is results, and Leon’s were dreadful in this contest.

#98 Jesse Puljujarvi, 5. Among those burned on the first goal-against, even as he busted his butt in a failed effort to stop the jailbreak. Otherwise he had a decent game, firing 2 shots and contributing to 5 Oilers chances. No luck on the conversion end of things though. Had one of the games funner moments when he volleyball-spiked a puck to the end wall, needs to learn to pursue that puck himself however as the only guy on his team legally allowed to touch it.


According to that Jesse contributed to 5 Oilers chances. While there are some things in your posts I agree with there's some fundamental problems IMO. Of them one of the biggest ones is that you blame Jesse for not doing well with Drai, while they've had some 2-3 complete games together, of which in one Jesse did very well indeed (2+1) and in one Drai was a bigger problem. I would love to see them together for a solid stretch of games, I believe that could actually benefit Drai as well, and he could certainly help Jesse with some things.

If Drai plays his best hockey and Jesse won't do well I'll accept it, but when it's about some odd shifts together or Drai having pretty much his worst game when they play together it's premature to say Jesse can't do well with Drai.
 
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Drivesaitl

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^Jesse and Drai played together for much of this current road trip in Florida. Are you even watching the games?

Citing David Staples reports isn't any kind of substantiation. Its merely giving that pundits opinions, which is like any other.

Funnily enough about the only thing memorable Jesse did in that game was the volleyball spike.

That said that was Drais worst game this season. No argument there. But look who he was with.

Finally I don't take a lot of stock in Chances by players that are not producing anything. Strome and Cagg get lots of chances. But its not really significant in terms of players wherein chances are not related to their production. Saying that a player got chances is not really that satisfying. At some point production is required. Its a results based business. The good players on this team are producing. We don't have a lot of them.
 

GameChanger

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If you're joking let me know.

You too.

Yes, Drai has been incosistent, but I guess there's a better word to replace that. I mean despite his points he's had many games where his total output has been much lower than what he can do. Why would EJ give him all those grades of 2-4 if he hadn't suceeded less than what's expected from him.

However, I agree that the expectations from Drai are much higher, so most of the time his bad game is above e.g. what we've seen from Lucic or Caggiula. But please don't get angry when things you don't like to hear are said aloud. You bash Pulju with some of the things I find not true at all (while some have a point), but can't take it when negative things about Drai are said. I don't mean this in an offensive way, actually vice versa, but I don't know how to find the proper words.
 

GameChanger

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I have to go now. I can tell the anger or at least irritation you feel when I dared to talk about Drai. And now you probably think I see him as a bad player, which is not true at all. But I hope you'd try to accept that he hasn't played at his best level game after game either, and actually the same can be said of the whole team. So I'd hope a bit more patience with Jesse as he's obviously having some confidence issues right now. Didn't mean to offend you or Drai or anyone. Have a great night and thanks for the conversation!
 

Drivesaitl

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You too.

Yes, Drai has been incosistent, but I guess there's a better word to replace that. I mean despite his points he's had many games where his total output has been much lower than what he can do. Why would EJ give him all those grades of 2-4 if he hadn't suceeded less than what's expected from him.

However, I agree that the expectations from Drai are much higher, so most of the time his bad game is above e.g. what we've seen from Lucic or Caggiula. But please don't get angry when things you don't like to hear are said aloud. You bash Pulju with some of the things I find not true at all (while some have a point), but can't take it when negative things about Drai are said. I don't mean this in an offensive way, actually vice versa, but I don't know how to find the proper words.

David Staples or Matheson (you're citing one or the other) have evident player bias, like anybody does. That's fine, but if you look at their scores you'll rarely if ever see Draisaitl getting a good grade.

But I don't really see the value in bringing up one game in the context of a season where Drai has 62pts and Pulju has 18. Its going to take more than one game to tell me Drai is being the problem there. One here is a team leader and its 2nd best player. The other isn't even featuring, isn't even significant here.

Drai has been good in Florida, both games. Pulju has contributed little in these games. Would be nice if he brought his game once in 2018.
 

Drivesaitl

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I have to go now. I can tell the anger or at least irritation you feel when I dared to talk about Drai. And now you probably think I see him as a bad player, which is not true at all. But I hope you'd try to accept that he hasn't played at his best level game after game either, and actually the same can be said of the whole team. So I'd hope a bit more patience with Jesse as he's obviously having some confidence issues right now. Didn't mean to offend you or Drai or anyone. Have a great night and thanks for the conversation!

Not anger at all, just interest, and I never lose sight of it just being conversation. Thank you as well for the exchange. We'll put our helmuts on and do this again some time. ;)

The readers like it.

ps Of course I'll continue to have patience for Jesse. I'm not inclined to give up on players. I realize bad years exist, but I just want to see some more. Its been a hard year to follow the Oilers.
 
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GameChanger

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David Staples or Matheson (you're citing one or the other) have evident player bias, like anybody does. That's fine, but if you look at their scores you'll rarely if ever see Draisaitl getting a good grade.

Actually I thought Drai has got a lot of great grades and IMO I've felt the grades have been pretty close to the truth most of the time. Not always, but still. But you may be right with the bias, I really can't say about that. Sorry I haven't got time for more now, I need to get to bed asap as it's late here. Thanks again!
 

GameChanger

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Not anger at all, just interest, and I never lose sight of it just being conversation. Thank you as well for the exchange. We'll put our helmuts on and do this again some time. ;)

The readers like it.

Yeah, thanks! I love it when you can close a tough conversation like this with a smile and a feeling all is perfectly well between us. As I said I need to go to bed now, but if you have popcorn today have some for me, too :)
 

bobbythebrain

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RNH and Ebs had down years last year...Looch was their winger. Looch brought McD down this year, Clearly Drai's getting the same negative affect on his line right now
 
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surixon

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I don't disagree with this. But I don't blame Pulju for giving up either - no one in the long term will care, but at the same time how hard can you keep busting your ass for a coach who won't give you a fair shake, apparently ever?

I'm reserving judgment until I see him with another coach. I hope it's not too late by then.

Jets fan chiming in on this conversation, hope you don't mind.

I find these conversations fascinating because many Jets fans have had them at times in the past about many of our young prospects. Everyone wants their grade A talent to hit the ground running and get annoyed when you feel that they are being pigeon holed in the bottom 6. But I have come to realize that while it may not always be apparent teams have very detailed development plans for each player.

I'll use one example from us in Kyle Connor (Fantastic NCAA and USHL scoring rates) came into his first training camp and shot the lights out and earned a spot in our top 9. When the season got underway it became apparent fairly quickly that there where holes in his game and he wasn't sure how to play in traffic at the NHL level. He was also hesitant to engage physically and as time went on he was dropped down the line up as that is what his play warranted (There where many outraged Jets fans calling for Maurice's head). He got sent and pretty much played the rest of the year in the AHL where he started to learn how to dominate and was scoring at terrific levels by the end of the year on a very poor Moose team. They called him up for one game at the end of the season and he looked like a much different player. He was more engaged all over the ice.

The start of this season most penciled him in to make the team given his progression but he had an meh camp and was sent down. He went down and busted his butt putting up 6 points in 5 games to start. The Jets suffered an injury in their top 6 and Connor was plugged in and took that opportunity and hasn't relinquished it. You wouldn't recognize what he is now based on what he was at the beginning of last season. He went from a kid that didn't like getting his nose dirty to being one of the most relentless forecheckers on the team. He now excels in puck battles and in traffic and is no longer looping on the ice waiting for things to happen. All this because he had to work for what he got and work extra hard to keep the role. He did need a conversation with the captain in which Wheeler told him that just by making the NHL he hadn't proven anything yet as he Wheeler stated he himself had to prove himself every day. When Connor realized he needed to bust his butt and he incorporated so called checking skills the rest of his game flourished as a result. It gave him the platform to be able use his elite talent.

I bring up Connor because I see many similarities between him and Pulju, very fast talented kids who had terrific pedigree before entering the league. Both players when entering the NHL had numerous holes in their games and their talent alone wasn't sufficient. As someone who witnessed the transformation in Connor's game I wouldn't give up on Pulju as gains can be made awfully quickly and the player Puliju might be by the end of next season could be night and day different than what you see now. Where I agree with some is that its more up to him at this point then the coach. It was Connor realizing that he needed to up and adapt his game that opened up opportunities, it was his willingness to keep battling and keep making himself noticeable that allowed him to keep it on a very deep Jets team. The next step for Puliju will happen only when he realizes that its up to him to force the issue. This is the NHL if you are not willing to fight to get and keep your spot there is always someone hungry nipping at your heals waiting to take it. I believe all TMAC is trying to do is make him earn it and in the end Puliju earning it will be better for the org and will make him stronger as a player.
 

bobbythebrain

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Jets fan chiming in on this conversation, hope you don't mind.

I find these conversations fascinating because many Jets fans have had them at times in the past about many of our young prospects. Everyone wants their grade A talent to hit the ground running and get annoyed when you feel that they are being pigeon holed in the bottom 6. But I have come to realize that while it may not always be apparent teams have very detailed development plans for each player.

I'll use one example from us in Kyle Connor (Fantastic NCAA and USHL scoring rates) came into his first training camp and shot the lights out and earned a spot in our top 9. When the season got underway it became apparent fairly quickly that there where holes in his game and he wasn't sure how to play in traffic at the NHL level. He was also hesitant to engage physically and as time went on he was dropped down the line up as that is what his play warranted (There where many outraged Jets fans calling for Maurice's head). He got sent and pretty much played the rest of the year in the AHL where he started to learn how to dominate and was scoring at terrific levels by the end of the year on a very poor Moose team. They called him up for one game at the end of the season and he looked like a much different player. He was more engaged all over the ice.

The start of this season most penciled him in to make the team given his progression but he had an meh camp and was sent down. He went down and busted his butt putting up 6 points in 5 games to start. The Jets suffered an injury in their top 6 and Connor was plugged in and took that opportunity and hasn't relinquished it. You wouldn't recognize what he is now based on what he was at the beginning of last season. He went from a kid that didn't like getting his nose dirty to being one of the most relentless forecheckers on the team. He now excels in puck battles and in traffic and is no longer looping on the ice waiting for things to happen. All this because he had to work for what he got and work extra hard to keep the role. He did need a conversation with the captain in which Wheeler told him that just by making the NHL he hadn't proven anything yet as he Wheeler stated he himself had to prove himself every day. When Connor realized he needed to bust his butt and he incorporated so called checking skills the rest of his game flourished as a result. It gave him the platform to be able use his elite talent.

I bring up Connor because I see many similarities between him and Pulju, very fast talented kids who had terrific pedigree before entering the league. Both players when entering the NHL had numerous holes in their games and their talent alone wasn't sufficient. As someone who witnessed the transformation in Connor's game I wouldn't give up on Pulju as gains can be made awfully quickly and the player Puliju might be by the end of next season could be night and day different than what you see now. Where I agree with some is that its more up to him at this point then the coach. It was Connor realizing that he needed to up and adapt his game that opened up opportunities, it was his willingness to keep battling and keep making himself noticeable that allowed him to keep it on a very deep Jets team. The next step for Puliju will happen only when he realizes that its up to him to force the issue. This is the NHL if you are not willing to fight to get and keep your spot there is always someone hungry nipping at your heals waiting to take it. I believe all TMAC is trying to do is make him earn it and in the end Puliju earning it will be better for the org and will make him stronger as a player.

Totally agree. So far TM has developed Drai and McD just fine. Bear is also being handled decent. Clearly there is something different going on with JP, but TM addressed that saying he wants him to stand on his own

IMO alot of the posts so far are simply complaining about how he's being treated different, but again, TM addressed that
 
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