Confirmed with Link: Jesper Lindgren signs with HPK in Liiga (Post #57)

[Mr Hockey]

Why did he go to Finland instead of SHL?

 

[sxvnert]

Playing in an inferior league isn't a positive no matter how much ice time he gets. Not pleased with this move unless he decides to come over next summer (when marlie spots open up).

 

[Nithoniniel]

Having a difference of opinion is fine but there are people that are of the opinion that the earth is flat. All facts indicate it is not but they must be right because it's their opinion.

Yes, thinking Lindgren hasn't developed as well as he needs to if he's to be an NHL asset is almost the same as saying the earth is flat.

After all, him playing a fairly large role on one of the worst teams in a second tier professional league makes just as strong a case as all the proof we have of the shape of the planet.

This is the second time you've forgone the chance of a mature discussion and chosen to go after my credibility, which highlights what kind of poster you are quite well.

To be fair, Nithoniniel's country is Sweden at least thats what it says on his profile. So maybe he knows more about the players there than we do.

I do (edit: I do know the players. Didn't mean to say I know better .) I don't watch a lot of local hockey but I tend to keep track of our guys here. The reason I'm a bit disappointed with him so far is that he hasn't developed a whole lot since I watched him in his draft year. I liked him then, and I still like him as a player. But the progress that McMatthews mention is simply that this season he got a better opportunity. Previously he'd been in junior or playing over his head in SHL, now he got a good role in the second tier league.

But he was good enough to have that role on a bad team in Allsvenskan in his draft year, pretty much. I think he's gotten a bit stronger, and a bit better all around, but not at a rate that would mean he'd hit his potential. And this guy oozes potential. He's highly skilled, mobile, and smart. And like the below post says, he's still only 20. If he can take a big step in Finland, he's got top 4 upside for us. So far it doesn't look likely though.

Long-term prospect. Just turned 20. Two more years in Finland make sense if the playing time is there. Future on the Marlies blueline was a long shot anyways with Borgman and Rosen in the fold now.

Yeah I think it's the right call too.

 

[Man Bear Pig]

Why did he go to Finland instead of SHL?

Minutes or money or both. If I'm the Leafs i want him going to whichever league will offer top minutes.

 

[lifelonghockeyfan]

He signed with Leafs/Marlies as it starts burning off his ELC season.

He likely isn't AHL ready and will be loaned back to a European team.

 

[Barilko14]

He signed with Leafs/Marlies as it starts burning off his ELC season.

He likely isn't AHL ready and will be loaned back to a European team.

When did he sign an ELC?

I'm thinking some posters are confusing his ATO with an actual contract.

 

[McMatthews]

Jesper Lindgren at 20 years old has done better than the last offensive Swedish defenceman that Thommie Bergman drafted.

Anton Stralman.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=4152

 

[johnny_rudeboy]

Jesper Lindgren at 20 years old has done better than the last offensive Swedish defenceman that Thommie Bergman drafted.

Anton Stralman.

http://www.eliteprospects.com/player.php?player=4152

I dont disagree. But the poster you decided to attack is one of the more balanced ones around here. And he usually know what he talk about.

 

[McMatthews]

I dont disagree. But the poster you decided to attack is one of the more balanced ones around here. And he usually know what he talk about.

It doesn't mean he can't be wrong.

Maybe his expectations were a little high for Lindgren.

Based on where he was drafted and what we knew of Lindgren, he hasn't done anything to disappoint.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I dont disagree. But the poster you decided to attack is one of the more balanced ones around here. And he usually know what he talk about.

Thanks, Johnny!

It doesn't mean he can't be wrong.

Maybe his expectations were a little high for Lindgren.

Based on where he was drafted and what we knew of Lindgren, he hasn't done anything to disappoint.

Honest question: How many games have you watched from him? How would you describe his development from draft to this point?

Since you are shutting down other people's opinions, I'm expecting you can show some expertise on him as a prospect.

Oh, and Strålman's draft+2 year was spent in SHL, not Allsvenskan. That's a huge difference. Strålman had a similar year to what Lindgren did this year in his draft-1 year.

 

[VictorLustig]

John Klingberg took a similar path and it worked out pretty nicely.

 

[Nithoniniel]

John Klingberg took a similar path and it worked out pretty nicely.

Absolutely. Though Klingberg is a step ahead. I'm not arguing that it can't work out. It's early in his development path. But so far, not enough has happened in his game to feel comfortable with his projection. That's the point I made, and that McMatthews claim mean I have no idea what I'm talking about and likens me to people who think the world is flat.

 

[Mr Hockey]

Absolutely. Though Klingberg is a step ahead. I'm not arguing that it can't work out. It's early in his development path. But so far, not enough has happened in his game to feel comfortable with his projection. That's the point I made, and that McMatthews claim mean I have no idea what I'm talking about and likens me to people who think the world is flat.

Curious, do you live in Sweden?

 

[sxvnert]

John Klingberg took a similar path and it worked out pretty nicely.

Not a similar path. Klingberg stayed in the SHL.

 

[McMatthews]

Lindgren wasn't in the SHL because the club he had a contract with was relegated.

His draft+2 season was comparable to Stralman. He produced significantly more in Allsvenskan as Stralman did in the SHL. He could have likely matched or even topped Stralman's draft+2 season if MODO was good enough to not get relegated.

I get how I came off initially but you have yet to come up with a reason why you're concerned or disappointed in his progress so far.

 

[Nithoniniel]

Lindgren wasn't in the SHL because the club he had a contract with was relegated.

His draft+2 season was comparable to Stralman. He produced significantly more in Allsvenskan as Stralman did in the SHL. He could have likely matched or even topped Stralman's draft+2 season if MODO was good enough to not get relegated.

I get how I came off initially but you have yet to come up with a reason why you're concerned or disappointed in his progress so far.

I know that's why he wasn't in SHL. However, that's still quite a difference in context.

Produced significantly more? Lindgren had 24 points in 50 games in a lower tiered league, compared to Strålman having 21 points in 53 games.

The difference between SHL and Allsvenskan isn't quite like between NHL and AHL, but it's still a very distinct difference. You seem to argue as if they are two comparable leagues, and that's just not true.

I've yet to come up with a reason? Really? Try reading my posts. Here's a quote from a few posts up:

The reason I'm a bit disappointed with him so far is that he hasn't developed a whole lot since I watched him in his draft year. I liked him then, and I still like him as a player. But the progress that McMatthews mention is simply that this season he got a better opportunity. Previously he'd been in junior or playing over his head in SHL, now he got a good role in the second tier league.

But he was good enough to have that role on a bad team in Allsvenskan in his draft year, pretty much. I think he's gotten a bit stronger, and a bit better all around, but not at a rate that would mean he'd hit his potential.

We're two years in, and he's not shown a lot of growth in his game. He was a player that was too good for junior, but not good enough for SHL when we drafted him. He was still that the next season. And this season, he's played at a level in between those two.

I appreciate you rising to the challenge and discussing this with me though, but I couldn't disagree more with some of your arguments.

Curious, do you live in Sweden?

Yes?

 

[highslot]

i like lindgren's potential better than carrick's at this point, even with not progressing. hopefully the finnish league will kickstart him, although the ahl would have been a fine choice, if dermott moves up.

 

[McMatthews]

I know that's why he wasn't in SHL. However, that's still quite a difference in context.

Produced significantly more? Lindgren had 24 points in 50 games in a lower tiered league, compared to Strålman having 21 points in 53 games.

The difference between SHL and Allsvenskan isn't quite like between NHL and AHL, but it's still a very distinct difference. You seem to argue as if they are two comparable leagues, and that's just not true.

I've yet to come up with a reason? Really? Try reading my posts. Here's a quote from a few posts up:


We're two years in, and he's not shown a lot of growth in his game. He was a player that was too good for junior, but not good enough for SHL when we drafted him. He was still that the next season. And this season, he's played at a level in between those two.

I appreciate you rising to the challenge and discussing this with me though, but I couldn't disagree more with some of your arguments.

At 19 years old, Stralman had 5 points in 45 games in the SHL.

At 19 years old, Lindgren had 24 points in 50 games in Allsvenskan.

As a 17/18 year old, Lindgren totaled 4 points in 30 games in the SHL.

There is no reason to think his development curve so far has fallen short of long-term prospects like Stralman was.

 

[Nithoniniel]

At 19 years old, Stralman had 5 points in 45 games in the SHL.

At 19 years old, Lindgren had 24 points in 50 games in Allsvenskan.

As a 17/18 year old, Lindgren totaled 4 points in 30 games in the SHL.

There is no reason to think his development curve so far has fallen short of long-term prospects like Stralman was.

Forgot that Strålman was a second year eligible. Point to you. Although it should be mentioned that in his 18 year old season, Strålman had 18 points in 40 games in Allsvenskan, and that was at a time when breaching the league as a youngster was that much harder.

However, the point remains that his development curve hasn't had much curve on it so far. You compare him with Strålman, but he was also an extreme long-shot at this point in his career. He took an unusual step in his 20-year old season though, and he continued to grow continuously well into his NHL career.

Comparisons like that falter because they need extremely rare development in the future, rather than normal development given where they are right now, and that's not something you can expect. It's the Keith-argument, where half the young D-men in the league has people saying they have #1 potential because they are equal or better than Keith at the same age. But Ketih isn't Keith due to what he was when he was 22.

I think that's where we differ here. You are arguing that there are still best-case scenarios that are great players, and that's absolutely true. I am however arguing that the vast majority of comparables don't get close to NHL, which is unfortunately also true.

Lindgren always had absolute steal potential, but the chance of that happening is getting slimmer every year he doesn't take notable and distinct development steps.

 

[Budsfan]

Lindgren signs with team in Finland

http://www.hockeybuzz.com/blog/Mike-Augello/Lindgren-signs-with-team-in-Finland/120/85431

The Toronto Maple Leafs have a good problem for a change, as the growth of their prospect pool means they have to find options other than the American Hockey League to develop some of their young players.

Earlier this month, 2014 draftee Pierre Engvall signed a two-year deal to play with HV-71 (the Swedish Hockey League Champions) and on Saturday, defenseman Jesper Lindgren agreed to a two-year contract with HPK of the Finnish SM-Liiga.

The 20-year-old blueliner was selected 95th overall in the 2015 NHL Draft and played the last two seasons with MODO in Sweden’s second-tier league. Lindgren’s offensive totals jumped from three points to 24 last season.

Toronto is looking for the young defenseman to face tougher competition and get more playing time to help in his development. With the addition of blueliners Calle Rosen and Andreas Borgman to go along with prospects Travis Dermott and Andrew Nielsen, Lindgren may have been challenged to get consistent playing time and being shuttled between the ECHL and AHL may have hindered his growth.

NHL clubs retain the rights of drafted players from Europe for four years, which means that Toronto retains the rights on Lindgren until June 2019, which means that the Leafs can sign him after the completion of the SM-Liiga’s season and before Lindgren becomes a free agent.

Moves such as these allow Toronto more room to lock up players who will re-enter the draft or become free agents if they are not signed by the June 1 deadline, such as 2013 fifth rounder Fabrice Herzog and a pair of 2015 selections, defenseman Stephen Desrocher and winger Nikita Korostelev.

 

[Bernier the Boats]

Forgot that Strålman was a second year eligible. Point to you. Although it should be mentioned that in his 18 year old season, Strålman had 18 points in 40 games in Allsvenskan, and that was at a time when breaching the league as a youngster was that much harder.

However, the point remains that his development curve hasn't had much curve on it so far. You compare him with Strålman, but he was also an extreme long-shot at this point in his career. He took an unusual step in his 20-year old season though, and he continued to grow continuously well into his NHL career.

Comparisons like that falter because they need extremely rare development in the future, rather than normal development given where they are right now, and that's not something you can expect. It's the Keith-argument, where half the young D-men in the league has people saying they have #1 potential because they are equal or better than Keith at the same age. But Ketih isn't Keith due to what he was when he was 22.

I think that's where we differ here. You are arguing that there are still best-case scenarios that are great players, and that's absolutely true. I am however arguing that the vast majority of comparables don't get close to NHL, which is unfortunately also true.

Lindgren always had absolute steal potential, but the chance of that happening is getting slimmer every year he doesn't take notable and distinct development steps.

I like your posts and the different insight is useful. It's my understanding Lindgren was top 10 in scoring for dman. Given that he was going to play in Allveskan this year regardless (since the team he's on plays there), what more could he reasonably have been expected to show? He didn't make the WJC team despite what is ostensibly a good statistical season, so I'm not saying your prior analysis is off at all.

What would he have to do next year to meet your expectations? The easy answer would have obviously been produce in the SHL, but since he will be playing in Finland, what are your expectations of him?

 

[McMatthews]

Forgot that Strålman was a second year eligible. Point to you. Although it should be mentioned that in his 18 year old season, Strålman had 18 points in 40 games in Allsvenskan, and that was at a time when breaching the league as a youngster was that much harder.

However, the point remains that his development curve hasn't had much curve on it so far. You compare him with Strålman, but he was also an extreme long-shot at this point in his career. He took an unusual step in his 20-year old season though, and he continued to grow continuously well into his NHL career.

Comparisons like that falter because they need extremely rare development in the future, rather than normal development given where they are right now, and that's not something you can expect. It's the Keith-argument, where half the young D-men in the league has people saying they have #1 potential because they are equal or better than Keith at the same age. But Ketih isn't Keith due to what he was when he was 22.

I think that's where we differ here. You are arguing that there are still best-case scenarios that are great players, and that's absolutely true. I am however arguing that the vast majority of comparables don't get close to NHL, which is unfortunately also true.

Lindgren always had absolute steal potential, but the chance of that happening is getting slimmer every year he doesn't take notable and distinct development steps.

What could Lindgren have done this past season to convince you he still has steal potential?

He literally had no choice but to play in Allsvenskan with MODO.

The only thing I can think of is if he put up better numbers at the WJC.

 

[Nithoniniel]

I like your posts and the different insight is useful. It's my understanding Lindgren was top 10 in scoring for dman. Given that he was going to play in Allsvenskan this year regardless (since the team he's on plays there), what more could he reasonably have been expected to show? He didn't make the WJC team despite what is ostensibly a good statistical season, so I'm not saying your prior analysis is off at all.

What would he have to do next year to meet your expectations? The easy answer would have obviously been produce in the SHL, but since he will be playing in Finland, what are your expectations of him?

Next season, he'll be playing in a better league but also one that is tighter and a bit rougher than the Swedish leagues. That goes a bit against his skill set, but that might be good. What I had wished for before and hope he can do next season is start plugging some of his weaknesses. He is a very slight player, and can easily get overwhelmed when he can't win pucks with skating, body positioning, and plain will, for example. He doesn't have anything in his shot arsenal, and he's still rather spotty in his own zone.

So basically, if he can do what he did in Allsvenskan in SM-Liiga, that's a very positive sign. For that to happen, he'll need to have a Babcockian big summer and take some of those steps he'll need to take anyway to have a chance in NHL. If that happens, I think we have a player projecting as a Toby Enström if we're lucky. I've always felt that if he makes it, it'll be due to combination of skating, smartness and low-key skill rather than as a PP specialist. He plays the game very much like a modern possession D-man.

What could Lindgren have done this past season to convince you he still has steal potential?

He literally had no choice but to play in Allsvenskan with MODO.

The only thing I can think of is if he put up better numbers at the WJC.

He still has steal potential. The chance is just getting slimmer.

As for what he could have done differently, read above. It's not always about production.

 

[Bernier the Boats]

Next season, he'll be playing in a better league but also one that is tighter and a bit rougher than the Swedish leagues. That goes a bit against his skill set, but that might be good. What I had wished for before and hope he can do next season is start plugging some of his weaknesses. He is a very slight player, and can easily get overwhelmed when he can't win pucks with skating, body positioning, and plain will, for example. He doesn't have anything in his shot arsenal,

So basically, if he can do what he did in Allsvenskan in SM-Liiga, that's a very positive sign. For that to happen, he'll need to have a Babcockian big summer and take some of those steps he'll need to take anyway to have a chance in NHL. If that happens, I think we have a player projecting as a Toby Enström if we're lucky. I've always felt that if he makes it, it'll be due to combination of skating, smartness and low-key skill rather than as a PP specialist. He plays the game very much like a modern possession D-man.

Does that mean getting stronger? Or is he simply not competitive in his own end at the moment?

 

[Nithoniniel]

Does that mean getting stronger? Or is he simply not competitive in his own end at the moment?

Damn you're quick. I managed to submit before I was done writing too for that matter.

He's competitive. He doesn't back down, and he's smart enough to know how to compete effectively as well. It's definitely a case of functional strength. It's often very obvious that he is some 160 lbs, and that gets taken advantage of. Mentioned defensive work above, where he needs to improve. I've heard he's gotten better there, so I might have caught some bad games in that department. When I watched, he struggled when under pressure.

I'll be in Finland some next season, so I'll try to catch a few games and see if I can keep you guys updated on how he's progressing.

Edit: Just like to clarify that I'm not quite comfortable with supplying this feedback. I've been a fan since pre-draft and watched him every now and then since, but not enough that I feel that I really know him in-depth. This whole thing started because I see the same ability, strengths and weaknesses now as I did two years ago, and that's not something you can ever be happy with.