Confirmed with Link: Jason Botterill Hired As General Manager -- MOD WARNING #1851

[Icicle]

Tanking for Dahlin or Svetch was not an option as there was no guarantee that finishing last would get either.

Ok, tanking to get a top-5 pick in a deep draft definitely was. Don't be like Jame.

 

[Jame]

I consider 3/4 of what you said as a bare minimum expectation I have for him, given most of those are painfully obvious moves. Semantics.

Good let's see if he can meet bare minimum expectations this offseason... since he failed to last year.

 

[Icicle]

Good let's see if he can meet bare minimum expectations this offseason... since he failed to last year.

You, again, haven't given him better UFA signing options from last year that would've made things better. If you can't provide better alternatives, you can't stubbornly hold your ground-- you aren't standing on anything.

 

[brian_griffin]

We've been over this before.
It's not just about UFA signing options before the season started.

It's moving out a contract or two in the offseason or during the season so the Sabres weren't as close to the 50-contract limit so they could claim another player or two.

It's waiver wire claims during the season to improve the overall median talent on the roster. JT Brown, others.

Moves since the start of the season:

• Moulson waived/assigned ~Thanksgiving time.
• Wilson acquired 12/4/17 via trade.
• Kane traded at deadline.
• Anything else which wasn't injury recall related?

Even 1 or 2 minor moves to increase the average talent level of the team/organization would have been good-faith signs that someone was trying.

@Der Jaeger had a post on how demoralizing the minimal in-season activity could have been to the locker room.

 

[OkimLom]

Last year wasn't salvageable without spending oodles of assets. He probably realized, like we all did, by November, the season was a lost cause and tanking for Dahlin was the most economical option. Now we have Dahlin.

If he made improvements mid-season, we would've had to lose assets (draft picks and prospects) to get anyone to take our trash, and realistically he'd only get halfway. If we were a playoff team that was a couple moves away from President's trophy, that's one thing, but this was a bad team that was struggling to learn a system that had Reinhart and ROR and Okposo playing like TOTAL TRASH all through December, so given the information at the time, his patience I'd argue was in fact his best option. A 5th for Wilson was a low consequence move to keep underperforming Rochester players down on the winning team.

You are all-in on blaming Botterill for not fixing things mid-season, but that assumes there were moves he could've made to right the ship then. Yes, we all see obvious paths forward next year, most of which involve not re-signing the players whose contracts naturally ran their course already. That was Botterill's doing-- acquiring players all on short-term basis so he can re-tool if necessary. He didn't trade away any core pieces except Folingo->Scandella, and nobody thinks that's a bad move. His patience, as opposed to the over-confident over-spending that Murray espoused, is a welcome addition. Cause let's be honest, the over-confident over-spending is why we're in this mess in the first place.


You should bring your assessment of Botterill into the land of reality. Until you can come up with a plan of trades to be done last November to make last year a playoff team, your criticism of Botterill is simply bull****.


I would consider the movement of a core piece, that Botterill didn't dive right into, the minimum of a 'major shake-up'. And given last year, it's not unwarranted. But it's a mixed bag whether it's needed, or whether the support deck chairs just get shuffled and a summer of not piss-poor training like we have to assume many players had last year doesn't repeat itself.

How are the Buffalo Sabres on May 22, 2018 better than the Buffalo Sabres from October 4, 2017? How is the leadership better today than it was October 4, 2017? What on the team has improved from October 4, 2017 to today?

 

[OkimLom]

Ok, tanking to get a top-5 pick in a deep draft definitely was. Don't be like Jame.

Sure didn't look like any Tanking job to me. But I'm sure the locker room loves and supports the idea of tanking from the get go. It's not like anybody lost the love of hockey or anything.

 

[ZZamboni]

Wow.
I know Botts didn’t tank. Despite a couple posters who think the season was all about tanking.
I also know Botts should have done more during the season. Yes.
But I’m of the belief he doesn’t suck, isn’t a terrible hire, shouldn’t be fired anytime soon, and was somewhat handicapped since being hired from the Murray days.
He’ll make mistakes. Oh yes he has and yes he will. All GM’s do.
I hope he learns from them going forward.

I’m not ready to slam him in every post or thread about him. There is a difference in being unhappy overall in what he’s done, seeing what he can do going forward, maybe even being pessimistic about his ability as a GM, and slamming the guy every day every post every way. Just not my thing.
Of the things wrong with this team, lack of President of hockey ops has to be the top. Followed by a good goalie. If those get rectified, I truly believe the team will be better next season.

 

[Chainshot]

Sure didn't look like any Tanking job to me. But I'm sure the locker room loves and supports the idea of tanking from the get go. It's not like anybody lost the love of hockey or anything.

Yeah, that wasn't a tank job. We can only hope his mis-steps were some OJT that he's learned from and that he's able to make better acquisitions and keep a better handle on his room in the coming year.

 

[Jame]

I consider 3/4 of what you said as a bare minimum expectation I have for him, given most of those are painfully obvious moves. Semantics.

I think it's quite interesting that what you see as a "bare minimum expectation" of Botts THIS offseason, you also believe was an impossible expectation LAST offseason....

 

[enthusiast]

Intentional? No, inept!

 

[Icicle]

I think it's quite interesting that what you see as a "bare minimum expectation" of Botts THIS offseason, you also believe was an impossible expectation LAST offseason....

He did do it last season. Three of his core pieces, however, were totally out to lunch, two of which for half the season, Okposo for the entire year getting over the concussion BS, and not one single prospect graduated at all. His high-flying most efficient contract in the league (Rordrigues) was setback with a BS hand injury to start the season, and the goalies who he either 1) inherited or 2) literally the best UFA available that offseason, both were absolutely awful. Meanwhile, the entire team decided they didn't remember how to make a pass until the new year.

So yes, Botterill did this last year, but his players failed his miserably, and it had little to do with him at all.

Now he will have the same core + 1 generational player, new deck chairs, and no longer tied paying 4 million to Lehner anymore to get cramps drinking coffee and mysteriously hurting his ankle every time he's having a bad game because they can't support his fat ass flopping around.

Maybe his core players won't all go to lunch this time around?

 

[Jame]

He did do it last season.

He did what now?

Buyout Pommer: former franchise captain, top 9 minute forward
Buyout Bogo: Alternate Captain, big lockerroom personality

Nope. He kept Moulson and Gorges..... neither of whom belonged on an NHL roster.

Do not Qualify Lehner: 3 year starter, big lockeroom personality

Nope. He brought him back

Let numerous low level free agents walk: Pouliot, Josefson, Falk, Nolan, Gorges, etc

Nope. Instead he ADDED most of those low level scrubs

Allow high skill prospects (Mitts, Dahlin, Nylander, Guhle, etc) to take spots from low end RFAs (Griffith, Bailey, Baptiste, Nelson, etc)

Nope. He had them in Rochester most of the year.

Trade mid-low level young NHLers (McCabe, Girgs, Larsson, etc) for new mid-low level young NHLers.

Yes. He traded Ennis/Foligno for Scandella.

And sign some quality free agents

Nope. He didn't add a single one.

Maybe his core players won't all go to lunch this time around?

Who hired the coach who's system is "all together now, let's have fun"

 

[brian_griffin]

He did do it last season. Three of his core pieces, however, were totally out to lunch, two of which for half the season, Okposo for the entire year getting over the concussion BS, and not one single prospect graduated at all. His high-flying most efficient contract in the league (Rordrigues) was setback with a BS hand injury to start the season, and the goalies who he either 1) inherited or 2) literally the best UFA available that offseason, both were absolutely awful. Meanwhile, the entire team decided they didn't remember how to make a pass until the new year.

So yes, Botterill did this last year, but his players failed his miserably, and it had little to do with him at all.

Now he will have the same core + 1 generational player, new deck chairs, and no longer tied paying 4 million to Lehner anymore to get cramps drinking coffee and mysteriously hurting his ankle every time he's having a bad game because they can't support his fat ass flopping around.

Maybe his core players won't all go to lunch this time around?

None of the above kept him from doing more.

You're not just moving the goalposts over "why Botts couldn't have done more last season", you're moving them to the adjacent field of "why the Sabres weren't better last season under Botts".

 

[Icicle]

He did what now?

Buyout Pommer: former franchise captain, top 9 minute forward
Buyout Bogo: Alternate Captain, big lockerroom personality

Nope. He kept Moulson and Gorges..... neither of whom belonged on an NHL roster.

Do not Qualify Lehner: 3 year starter, big lockeroom personality

Nope. He brought him back

Let numerous low level free agents walk: Pouliot, Josefson, Falk, Nolan, Gorges, etc

Nope. Instead he ADDED most of those low level scrubs

Allow high skill prospects (Mitts, Dahlin, Nylander, Guhle, etc) to take spots from low end RFAs (Griffith, Bailey, Baptiste, Nelson, etc)

Nope. He had them in Rochester most of the year.

Trade mid-low level young NHLers (McCabe, Girgs, Larsson, etc) for new mid-low level young NHLers.

Yes. He traded Ennis/Foligno for Scandella.

And sign some quality free agents

Nope. He didn't add a single one.



Who hired the coach who's system is "all together now, let's have fun"

Again, your hot take is useless until you show the better options in each scenario. Buying out Moulson when he played nothing then gets buried was the most cap efficient way to handle that situation. Gorges didn't play worth a damn either, and buying him out similarly was unnecessary unless the cap was needed then.

Are you seriously blaming Botterill for not promoting Bailey/Baptiste/Fasching earlier despite none of them showing why they even remotely deserved it and somehow magically not having them get injuried either?

 

[joshjull]

Sure didn't look like any Tanking job to me. But I'm sure the locker room loves and supports the idea of tanking from the get go. It's not like anybody lost the love of hockey or anything.

We're really going to use ROR's self flagellation as evidence of anything?

Lets inject some reality shall we.

When was ROR's worst hockey? October and November. So right out of the gate were when his struggles started. How on earth can that be blamed on a lack of in season moves/waiver claims? It makes zero sense logically or chronologically. ROR's play also got better every month from December on. He played his best hockey on the back end of the season. He lost the love of the game but got better because of it? Of course that makes no sense.

But if you want to blame the GM/coach for his early season struggles then maybe you could point to him not getting named captain. Frustration over that makes a much more logical source of his inconsistant play to start the year (along with pending fatherhood). But it reflects negatively on ROR so of course the usual suspects stayed FAR away from that. Instead its turned it into 'Jack is being handed the team and Botts is ruining the locker room'. Then we have that beaten over our heads for an entire season.

ROR's post game and post season comments are his defector shield that he uses no matter the team he plays on. After Canada lost he sounded the exact same he does after every single Sabres game. Woah is me, I need to be better , Its my fault, yada yada yada.

 

[Jame]

Again, your hot take is useless until you show the better options in each scenario.

BS

I covered over a dozen UFAs. You were part of the conversation.

Buying out Moulson when he played nothing then gets buried was the most cap efficient way to handle that situation. Gorges didn't play worth a damn either, and buying him out similarly was unnecessary unless the cap was needed then.

There’s no excuse. At worse they should’ve been buried from day 1.

Are you seriously blaming Botterill for not promoting Bailey/Baptiste/Fasching earlier despite none of them showing why they even remotely deserved it and somehow magically not having them get injuried either?

Yes, inexperienced talent over experienced no talent. The rest of the league has figured this out

 

[Icicle]

Ba

BS

I covered over a dozen UFAs. You were part of the conversation.



There’s no excuse. At worse they should’ve been buried from day 1.



Yes, inexperienced talent over experienced no talent. The rest of the league has figured this out

baptiste Bailey and fasching don’t have the talent though. Invisible in Rochester even.

You can’t ignore the old mans club wrt the Moulson situation. He was given every opportunity a veteran like that, respectfully, should’ve gotten under a new coach and system, before being loaned close to his wife. Players throughout the league take note of that. Especially his old friend Tavares.

 

[Dex]

I think it's a situation where Botts needed to assess organizational depth and start a culture change in Roch, yet at the same time field a roster in Buffalo without saddling the team with 3-4 year deals for over paid free agents who you'd want to dump to free up roster spots for younger talent a year later. It's a situation where that was a run-on sentence. It's a situation where guys like Josefson, Nolan, Wilson and Pouliot filled the need and can be cast away. It's a situation where you missed on Beaulieu, but only have him for another year. It's a situation where Moulson and Pommer will be gone after this year.

 

[jcbeze]

I think it's a situation where Botts needed to assess organizational depth and start a culture change in Roch, yet at the same time field a roster in Buffalo without saddling the team with 3-4 year deals for over paid free agents who you'd want to dump to free up roster spots for younger talent a year later. It's a situation where that was a run-on sentence. It's a situation where guys like Josefson, Nolan, Wilson and Pouliot filled the need and can be cast away. It's a situation where you missed on Beaulieu, but only have him for another year. It's a situation where Moulson and Pommer will be gone after this year.

Ya...but what's the scenario?

 

[EichHart]

Botts got us Dahlin and a potential lottery pick for Kane. Pretty much a perfect scenario so far. All going as planned. This offseason is HUGE. Construct a competitive roster or see your way out. I feel like this last season was a "feeling" out period. He wasn't here the last couple years. There is only so much tape you can watch to get an idea of what we have on this team and their prospects. He needed this year to evaluate and he did just that. He now knows what this team needs. This summer will be telling.

 

[truthbluth]

There seems to be a pretty big chasm between those that believe Botts was beset with garbage at every level of the organization, and those that think Bylsma was most, of not all of the problem.

Maybe, just maybe, Bylsma sucked AND GMTM depleted the organizational wealth by selling the farm for a few players that he fell in love with as a scout, because the combo of Pegula bucks and a few of his previous scouting hits gave him the confidence and arrogance of a drunken trustafarian.

To give Botts any credit at this point is absurd. He’s done nothing that’s for sure right.

To harangue him for not fixing the whole mess already is similarly, though arguably to a lesser degree, absurd.

I went into last season believing that the Sabres were further away from success than they were in 2014. I feel differently now, and ONLY because of some dumb lottery balls. I can’t see how GMBott has a done a thing to make the big club better. I also think he was put in a terrible situation and that he decided to fix the smallest mess first, which was Rochester and is at least half done.

He’s got one more season in my mind. Phil has 2 months. If they aren’t better but December 1st, so long.

 

[Sabre Dance]

There seems to be a pretty big chasm between those that believe Botts was beset with garbage at every level of the organization, and those that think Bylsma was most, of not all of the problem.

Maybe, just maybe, Bylsma sucked AND GMTM depleted the organizational wealth by selling the farm for a few players that he fell in love with as a scout, because the combo of Pegula bucks and a few of his previous scouting hits gave him the confidence and arrogance of a drunken trustafarian.

To give Botts any credit at this point is absurd. He’s done nothing that’s for sure right.

To harangue him for not fixing the whole mess already is similarly, though arguably to a lesser degree, absurd.

I went into last season believing that the Sabres were further away from success than they were in 2014. I feel differently now, and ONLY because of some dumb lottery balls. I can’t see how GMBott has a done a thing to make the big club better. I also think he was put in a terrible situation and that he decided to fix the smallest mess first, which was Rochester and is at least half done.

He’s got one more season in my mind. Phil has 2 months. If they aren’t better but December 1st, so long.

One more season to do what?

Everyone wants to fire people so fast. If you can upgrade then do it, but firing just to fire is dumb. They were hired for a reason. Stick to it.

 

[truthbluth]

One more season to do what?

Everyone wants to fire people so fast. If you can upgrade then do it, but firing just to fire is dumb. They were hired for a reason. Stick to it.

Show improvement. If he can’t, in light of how f***ing good Vegas was with scraps, what’s the justification for NOT firing him? GMs usually get 3?

 

[Icicle]

One more season to do what?

Everyone wants to fire people so fast. If you can upgrade then do it, but firing just to fire is dumb. They were hired for a reason. Stick to it.

It’s crazy to give a GM two seasons before getting the pitch forks.

 

[Sabre Dance]

Show improvement. If he can’t, in light of how ****ing good Vegas was with scraps, what’s the justification for NOT firing him? GMs usually get 3?

I think he should get 3. Housley also. Obviously if Quenneville became available or something you go after him.