Jaromir Jagr

Where would you put him as the best forwards ever to play the game? If the game was just judged on talent he would be in the top 5. However, there is more to hockey than just talent and I would put him in the 15-20 range.

 

He is a top 15 player of all time. Of those 15, 4 or 5 are defensemen.

 

Best forward? No.
Among the best forwards? Yes.

 

I posed this question last year about Jagr, like you I feel on talent alone he would be right there with Gretz, Orr, Lemieux Howe ect. But he lacks the intangibles that these guys had ie work ethic and I think top 15 or 20 would be fair. Its a shame he didnt bring it every night.

 

The knock on Jagr is that he never really carried a team to glory. yes he won two Cups, but Lemieux dominated both years in the playoffs and after Lemieux jagr was the best player in the game but couldnt lead the Pens anywhere when Lemieux retired. Without Lemieux, Jagr has never gotten out of the second round. And he hasnt been in the playoffs since '01.

That said he has won 5 Art Ross Trophies, and one Hart. That puts him close to Phil Esposito IMO. Why is he not ahead of him? Because he never has led a team to victory. Espo was just as important as Orr in those Bruins Cups, and dont forget about the '72 Summit Series. jagr doesnt have that mystique as a true leader. Hey is he an all-time great? Of course, but to get into the top 15 of all time he'll need another Cup IMO.

 

The only talent I'd put ahead of Jagr is Gretzky, Lemieux, and Orr. But I can think of lots of guys I'd rather have on my team.

 

There's always been greats. Those who have been the best in their generation. From 70 to 75 it was Bobby Orr. From 75-80 it was Guy Lafleur. From 80-87 it was Wayne Gretzky. From 87 to 95 it was Mario Lemieux. From 95 to 2000 it was Jaromir Jagr. The only difference about Orr, Lafleur, Gretz and Mario is that all 4 of these lead their teams to at least 2 cups. Jagr never did. He's like another poster said. A Phil Esposito type of guy. That would put him around 15th on my all time forwards list. Not bad but he could definately move up a couple steps in the next few years.

 

I don't know the answer to these questions, but

- How many Cups did Lemieux win without Jagr, and
- How many Cups did Gretzky win without other HHOFer's on his team?

19 other guys suit up. If you're going to judge Player A against Player B based on how the TEAM does, you need to be confident that the other guys on the ice are, for all practical purposes, completely interchangeable.

 

After Francis left Jagr was left with waiver-wire material in Pittsburgh. Winning Art Ross' (some season while missing 20 games -2000), and carrying that team without anything resembling an true NHL defense was an accomplishment in itself. Bouncing out teams like NJ and Washington, balanced, defensive orianted teams is another.
Not to mention he was playing maybe his best hockey from 97-2000, in a clutch and grab NHL... Keeping his league-leading point totals relatively low.

And he has been in the playoffs since 2001, btw. With the Caps.

He needs another Cup to be in the top-15? Is Hasek in the top-15? Ray Borque? How many Cups do they have?

 

He's a top 5. Look at his numbers.

 

Just go to NHL.com and watch the highlight of his goal from saturday's game against the Pens, broke his stick on the PP, hurry's to the bench, comes back takes a shot recovers loose puck, passes it off, gets it back for a one timer to score. He DOSN'T have to work hard, he is so good that he looks lazy. When he wants to dominate a game, he dominate's the game, look at what he did in the opener against the Flyers.

 

You just don't look at the numbers when judging players. What hurts Jagr from being in the top five is that he never has lead his team to a Stanely Cup final. Moreover, he lacks the leadership and on some nights the work ethic to be considered in the top five.

To be in the top five he would have to better than Gretzky, Lemieux, Howe, Richard and Beliveau. He's not even close to being better than those guys. To take it further to be in the top ten he would have to be better than Hull, LaFleur, Messier, Morenz and Esposito.