Jaromir Jagr joins the 600 goal club.

[bcrt2000]

Jagr's petulance for indifference really became glaring in Washington, but even in those last two years in Pittsburgh, he went through stretches of distinct apathy. Before Lemieux returned in 2000-01, his performance reeked of someone who wanted out. That "get me out of here" attitude was really apparent in the post-season.

You're probably right about Washington, although he was STILL a great player on Washington when you consider it was during the dead puck era. If he played 82 games in 2001-02, he would have hit 94 points at his pace, two less than Iginla (who won the Art Ross). And he was averaging just over a point per game in 2002-03.

In Pittsburgh, as far as I remember he was hampered with many groin injuries in the late 90's. In the 2000-01 run, I think he had a bad shoulder, and couldn't shoot the puck, but due to media pressure he was playing. To me, he got the EXACT same treatment as Dom Hasek did when he got injured last year. Maybe people don't like the way Czechs talk English or something, I dunno.

 

[God Bless Canada]

You're probably right about Washington, although he was STILL a great player on Washington when you consider it was during the dead puck era. If he played 82 games in 2001-02, he would have hit 94 points at his pace, two less than Iginla (who won the Art Ross). And he was averaging just over a point per game in 2002-03.

In Pittsburgh, as far as I remember he was hampered with many groin injuries in the late 90's. In the 2000-01 run, I think he had a bad shoulder, and couldn't shoot the puck, but due to media pressure he was playing. To me, he got the EXACT same treatment as Dom Hasek did when he got injured last year. Maybe people don't like the way Czechs talk English or something, I dunno.

Watch Jagr play in 2000-01 before Mario came back, then watch him after Mario came back. You'll see two completely different players. After Mario came back, there was a jump and an effort in his game that was lacking before. While Mario's return certainly didn't hurt Jaromir's quest for the scoring title, his effort improved considerably as well.

There were plenty of rumours about his potential departure from Pittsburgh in 2000. Those died down after Lemieux came back, but his PERFORMANCE in the 2001 playoffs were very indicative of a player who wanted out. It was the worst hockey he'd played since the first half of his rookie season.

 

[bcrt2000]

I'd say Jagr's play in Pittsburgh during the 2001 playoffs was about equivalent of how Jagr was playing the start of this year (when he didn't have any strength in his arm). I don't know how you'd expect an injured player to play any better than that.

 

[espo*]

I've always like how he used his strength on the puck. He has always been nearly impossible to move off of it once it's on his stick. Awesome watching him control it with one hand and hold off a defender with the other (too bad you really can't do that much in the "new" NHL).

Truly an incredible player.

Yep,His strength on the puck is legendary.Besides being so gifted with skill the guy was built like a linebacker for the Chicago Bears or something.That makes for quite a combination and why he was and is so damn good even after all these years.

He's the real deal.

 

[Czech Your Math]

I'd say Jagr's play in Pittsburgh during the 2001 playoffs was about equivalent of how Jagr was playing the start of this year (when he didn't have any strength in his arm). I don't know how you'd expect an injured player to play any better than that.

Bingo. It was known he had a shoulder injury at the time.

If his name was Forsberg, he would be a "warrior."

Lemieux called him out for his performance in the ECF vs. NJ, but Lemieux's performance was about the same as Jagr's in that series.

 

[bcrt2000]

Bingo. It was known he had a shoulder injury at the time.

If his name was Forsberg, he would be a "warrior."

Lemieux called him out for his performance in the ECF vs. NJ, but Lemieux's performance was about the same as Jagr's in that series.

Actually, even Lemieux "calling him out" was blown out of proportion by the media. I actually listened to the conference call, and Mario was a leading question if he thought Jagr needs to play better, and Mario kinda brushed it off by saying he needs to play better, but everyone else needs to play better too.

 

[pappyline]

I can see ranking him behind Gretzky, Lemieux, and Howe among forwards, but that's about it. Difficult to make a definitive argument for Esposito, Lafleur, Hull, Mikita, Messier, Trottier, Clarke, Bossy, etc., but that won't prevent it from being debated into eternity.

Jagr
93/94- 9th Points, 7th Assists
94/95- 1st Points, 2nd Goals, 7th Assists
95/96- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
96/97- 6th Points, 6th Goals (63 games)
97/98- 1st Points, 9th Goals, 1st Assists
98/99- 1st Points, 2nd Goals, 1st Assists
99/00- 1st Points, 4th Goals, 3rd Assists (63 games)
00/01- 1st Points, 3rd Goals, 1st Assists
01/02- 5th Points, 9th Assists
05/06- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
06/07- currently 1st Points, 1st Assists

Jagr at even strength
93/94- 2nd Points, 2nd Assists
94/95- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 2nd Assists
95/96- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 1st Assists
96/97- 4th Points
97/98- 2nd Points, 5th Goals, 3rd Assists
98/99- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 1st Assists
99/00- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists
00/01- 1st Points, 1st Goals, 1st Assists
01/02- 4th Assists
05/06- 2nd Points, 2nd Goals, 3rd Assists

We can certainly pul off these same sort of impressive statistics for the other players you have mentioned. It is not difficult at all to make a definitive argument for Hull, beliveau, Richard etc. In fact you are the only one on this post pushing Jagr as a top 5 forward,

 

[Czech Your Math]

We can certainly pul off these same sort of impressive statistics for the other players you have mentioned. It is not difficult at all to make a definitive argument for Hull, beliveau, Richard etc. In fact you are the only one on this post pushing Jagr as a top 5 forward,

I'm not pushing him as top five, at least no more than others are pulling him from it.

Of course there are other players with great accomplishments. Still, one has to ask how many Cups and top ten finishes in points/goals/assists Jagr would have in a six team league (or a diluted 12 team league). Heck, with six teams, 1/3 of the teams each year make the SC Finals.

I'm still stupefied that two players supposedly better than Jagr (Mikita and Hull, according to posters on this thread) along with legendary goalie Hall couldn't get more than one Cup.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

I'm not pushing him as top five, at least no more than others are pulling him from it.

Of course there are other players with great accomplishments. Still, one has to ask how many Cups and top ten finishes in points/goals/assists Jagr would have in a six team league (or a diluted 12 team league). Heck, with six teams, 1/3 of the teams each year make the SC Finals.

I'm still stupefied that two players supposedly better than Jagr (Mikita and Hull, according to posters on this thread) along with legendary goalie Hall couldn't get more than one Cup.

Uhm, in a smaller league, it is alot harder to dominate offensively. In a 6 team league, who'd be the worst goalie in the league? Turco, Roloson or Toskala? What would checking lines and defences look like?

 

[Fish on The Sand]

Uhm, in a smaller league, it is alot harder to dominate offensively. In a 6 team league, who'd be the worst goalie in the league? Turco, Roloson or Toskala? What would checking lines and defences look like?

we have also seen that stacked teams do not play very well and generally allow a lot of goals a la the rangers of 2000-04. You also have to remember in a smaller league, there were nowhere near as many europeans and a guy like Hasek would have likely been snubbed for somebody like Hackett. Well, snubbed is the wrong word, because Hasek never would have been on the radar to be snubbed, but you know what I mean. It may have been a smaller league with a lot more competetion for spots, however they were not filled with the best players by any stretch, and of you see a goalie 15-20 times a season you will have a lot of success against him. Another thing I'd like to add is that in a smaller league defence would be the first to be cut, so you'd be looking at a guy like Turgeon in charge of stopping jagr. I don't mean Turgeon now, but 10 years ago when Turgeon was good.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

we have also seen that stacked teams do not play very well and generally allow a lot of goals a la the rangers of 2000-04. You also have to remember in a smaller league, there were nowhere near as many europeans and a guy like Hasek would have likely been snubbed for somebody like Hackett. Well, snubbed is the wrong word, because Hasek never would have been on the radar to be snubbed, but you know what I mean. It may have been a smaller league with a lot more competetion for spots, however they were not filled with the best players by any stretch, and of you see a goalie 15-20 times a season you will have a lot of success against him. Another thing I'd like to add is that in a smaller league defence would be the first to be cut, so you'd be looking at a guy like Turgeon in charge of stopping jagr. I don't mean Turgeon now, but 10 years ago when Turgeon was good.

Except with that level of competition, players couldn't get away with the egos they do now, only a small handful would be irreplaceable. And North American goalies only?

Martin Broduer
Ryan Miller
J. S. Gigure
Marty Turco
Dwayne Roloson
Roberto Luongo

Luongo becomes the NHL's worst goalie...

 

[Czech Your Math]

Except with that level of competition, players couldn't get away with the egos they do now, only a small handful would be irreplaceable. And North American goalies only?

Martin Broduer
Ryan Miller
J. S. Gigure
Marty Turco
Dwayne Roloson
Roberto Luongo

Luongo becomes the NHL's worst goalie...

So you're saying that Jagr wouldn't be nearly as dominant against goalies of the 50s, 60s, etc? I find that hard to believe, especially since goalies weren't wearing the huge pads they do now. Jagr (and Lemieux) have as lethal an offensive arsenal as any player ever... puck control, moves, shots, passing, size, skill, you name it.

I would think if they put up with Richard's attacks, they would put up with Jagr's ego. It's not like it was a bunch of humble choir boys playing hockey, some were brawlers that pissed in the Stanley Cup.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

So you're saying that Jagr wouldn't be nearly as dominant against goalies of the 50s, 60s, etc? I find that hard to believe, especially since goalies weren't wearing the huge pads they do now. Jagr (and Lemieux) have as lethal an offensive arsenal as any player ever... puck control, moves, shots, passing, size, skill, you name it.

I would think if they put up with Richard's attacks, they would put up with Jagr's ego. It's not like it was a bunch of humble choir boys playing hockey, some were brawlers that pissed in the Stanley Cup.

The ego comment was more in regards to the 2000-04 Rangers not working.

Just as goaltending techniques and equipment have changed, so have skaters equipment and techniques. If Jagr was born in the 30's, you can bet he'd play a very different style of game.

 

[Fish on The Sand]

The ego comment was more in regards to the 2000-04 Rangers not working.

Just as goaltending techniques and equipment have changed, so have skaters equipment and techniques. If Jagr was born in the 30's, you can bet he'd play a very different style of game.

Yes, but if Jagr played in the 80s he likely wouldn't. He would have put up numbers that would have schooled everybody. I won't say he would put up better numbers than Gretzkey, but I am certain he would have put up better numbers than everybody else. He would have been at least close to Gretzkey.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Yes, but if Jagr played in the 80s he likely wouldn't. He would have put up numbers that would have schooled everybody. I won't say he would put up better numbers than Gretzkey, but I am certain he would have put up better numbers than everybody else. He would have been at least close to Gretzkey.

He would have probably been the #3 guy behind Gretzky and Lemieux, but much closer than anyone else who held that spot. A multi time 150+ scorer.

 

[pappyline]

He would have probably been the #3 guy behind Gretzky and Lemieux, but much closer than anyone else who held that spot. A multi time 150+ scorer.

This is a pretty meaningless exercise. Transport Howe, Hull, Mikita & beliveau to the 80's with all the advantages that a later birthdate would offer and Jagr drops to #7.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

This is a pretty meaningless exercise. Transport Howe, Hull, Mikita & beliveau to the 80's with all the advantages that a later birthdate would offer and Jagr drops to #7.

I won't necissarily disagree. But the question becomes, in the same era as Howe and Beliveau, are Gretzky and Lemieux still 1 & 2?

 

[pappyline]

I won't necissarily disagree. But the question becomes, in the same era as Howe and Beliveau, are Gretzky and Lemieux still 1 & 2?

Excellent question. Beliveau, great as he was, never really dominated his era. Howe dominated in the 50's & Hull in the 60's. With the style of hockey in the 80's, I think Lemieux & Gretzy would still have dominated in assists. Hull would have dominated in goals. Howe would have been the dominate all round player.