Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition

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NucksRock

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Agreed with most of this, good post.

15 goals with no PP time is ambitious though IMO. That's essentially top-90 amongst forwards, which would be incredible/elite production out of 3rd line minutes. Like you said, if he doesn't get PP time, that's a very successful year.

Unless he's suddenly getting 2017 Granlund minutes, I'd be happy with 10 ES goals.

didn't realize that's where 15 goals would put him comparatively - I'm guessing most of his detractors don't realize this either.

top 90 forwards is better than 3rd line also

31 teams - 6 players per top 6 = 186 top 6 forwards in the NHL - meaning he'd be right in the middle of that.
 

PuckMunchkin

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didn't realize that's where 15 goals would put him comparatively - I'm guessing most of his detractors don't realize this either.

top 90 forwards is better than 3rd line also

31 teams - 6 players per top 6 = 186 top 6 forwards in the NHL - meaning he'd be right in the middle of that.

Ive started to dislike this notion more and more.
It seems that there are not 31 true no.1 goalies in the NHL. That is probably not too controversial of a statement?

Going from there its not crazy to say there are not enough top6 forwards to go around for every team?

That said. If JV is in the top90 in goals that is definitely a succesful season from him.
 

NucksRock

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Ive started to dislike this notion more and more.
It seems that there are not 31 true no.1 goalies in the NHL. That is probably not too controversial of a statement?

Going from there its not crazy to say there are not enough top6 forwards to go around for every team?

That said. If JV is in the top90 in goals that is definitely a succesful season from him.

Well what's the benchmark? Your comment is accurate and fair, but perhaps like me you often think of a 2nd line player as a 50-70 pt guy and a first liner as a 70-100 pt player?

If the league has recalibrated itself where those "buckets' so to speak are no longer valid, then a top 6 player is literally where the league has recalibrated itself to becuase on the players today. I agree that 15 goals to me doesn't sound like second line production at all, but if that's what the stats show, it is what it is right?
 
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PuckMunchkin

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Well what's the benchmark? Your comment is accurate and fair, but perhaps like me you often think of a 2nd line player as a 50-70 pt guy and a first liner as a 70-100 pt player?

If the league has recalibrated itself where those "buckets' so to speak are no longer valid, then a top 6 player is literally where the league has recalibrated itself to becuase on the players today. I agree that 15 goals to me doesn't sound like second line production at all, but if that's what the stats show, it is what it is right?

Thats a good question, but I don't really have an answer. Any benchmark I'd set would be just an arbitrary point / goal mark that I feel is needed. It wouldn't be based on anything meaningful.

Teams like Golden Knights, Jets and Predators ruin it for the rest of us;
They routinely ice 2nd liners (Laine, Turris, Ehlers, Neal...) that are 1st liners on many teams, and guys in their bottom six ( Little, Perreault, Armia, Perron...) who easily slot in to top six roles on most teams.

Bastards...

edit.
What the hell, I'll throw out some gut feel numbers
I think a 65 point / 25 goal guy is certainly a 1st liner in the NHL.
Below 40 points doesn't feel like a 2nd liner anymore, but I bet this is way off already.
 
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NucksRock

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I just posted this in the Juolevi thread as we were discussing Jake there too, but I did some good old fashion data work and I am glad I did. I just proved all the Jake bashers wrong with data. LOL! we win guys! I guess their opinions dont seem to line up with data - Jake doesn't suck! LOL

here it is

I posted in the Jake thread that the idea he isn't good defensively is incorrect, a simple stat of takeaway to giveaways put him 5th on the team for those over 50 games (1.6). His corsi for was 49.4 and 5th on the team over 50 games (better than Bo, Boeser, Baer), and pretty much the same Corsi Against of 49% and same positioning. That is better than Bo, Sutter, Granlund, Baershchi, Boeser, Tanev etc. He is by no means suspect defensively this is proof.

His icetime of around 11:40 mins per game by the end of the year was 2nd from the bottom on the team for those over 40 games (only Dowd was less, despite getting increased time over the last 20 - that gives you an idea of how low it must have been prior). Despite this fact of very low average toi, he was third on the team in hits, the highest hitting forward at 156 (despite the 2nd lowest TOI over the season for those over 40 games), and only one hit behind Edler who clearly has ALOT more ice and opportunity to hit. I would say your claim of him being "no where near as physical as fans suggest" is clearly false based on the combination of hits (leading forward and #3 on the team one behind #2) and 2nd lowest average time on ice(for those over 40 games played). Basically Jake is a hitting machine based on that data. Again, second lowest avg TOI (for those over 40 games played), leading forward in hits, and one behind Edler for 2nd overall on the team.

As for points, I am not sure how he's supposed to get more that 20 points when he's not seeing the ice (as above) and has been asked to focus on defense (which again the stats PROVE he did). It was only over the last 20 games where he began to start seeing some offensive deployment. The switch doesn't just turn on when you've been driven to focus on D, he's not going to cheat just to get points, he's going to try and work on the things coaches asked of him and still play 200 ft. By the way, the advanced stats back up my assertion here as well. He was 19th on the team in offensive zone starts at 44.8%, he was 16th in defensive zone starts at 55.2% - clearly he was being use materially more in a defensive role (44.8% vs 55.2 %). For players over 40 games he was 6th on the team in defensive zone starts. Only Dowd, Tanev, Sutter, Granlund and Gudbrason were higher (the core defensive players - so he's part of that group).

As an objective party, if you cant see his improved play over the last 20 games, I don't know what to say, Green clearly did because he gave him alot more ice and offensive opportunity. And while he didnt 'finish" he was clearly creating alot of opporutnity, anyone watching could see that.

Many people on this site bash Jake, but use 'opinion'. When you look at the data, his deployment, and think about what that data says ( based on the advanced statistics), its very clear many of the criticisms are unwarranted as they are patently false -ie poor defensively, isn't overly physical, and yes didn't put up points but you need to be on the ice enough and consistently put in offensive situations, which he wasn't.

I hope to share this post with many others who critisize Jake. Take the time to read it, think about what the stats say sir, and all the criticisms out there about him. The stats I just shared PROVE without a doubt, most of the bashing on this site vs Jake comes from people who's 'eye test' is not very good at evaluating talent and the reality of a players effectiveness.

It also proves what I've been saying, that the coaching staff is bringing him along slowly and wanting him to focus on defense first, which he did, which slowly earned some offensive opportunity.
 
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Fire Benning

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I don’t know why so many seem to think that he’ll be gifted a better opportunity next season, he didn’t play at a high level consistently enough to warrant frequently playing in the highe teens of ice time. He could very easily receive similar usage to what he saw last season.
 

DL44

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I don’t know why so many seem to think that he’ll be gifted a better opportunity next season, he didn’t play at a high level consistently enough to warrant frequently playing in the highe teens of ice time. He could very easily receive similar usage to what he saw last season.

No.. I think he'll EARN the opportunity.
Like he managed to do this past season.

Only some perceive that he was gifted the mins this past season.
 

PuckMunchkin

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I just posted this in the Juolevi thread as we were discussing Jake there too, but I did some good old fashion data work and I am glad I did. I just proved all the Jake bashers wrong with data. LOL! we win guys! I guess their opinions dont seem to line up with data - Jake doesn't suck! LOL

here it is

I posted in the Jake thread that the idea he isn't good defensively is incorrect, a simple stat of takeaway to giveaways put him 5th on the team for those over 50 games (1.6). His corsi for was 49.4 and 5th on the team over 50 games (better than Bo, Boeser, Baer), and pretty much the same Corsi Against of 49% and same positioning. That is better than Bo, Sutter, Granlund, Baershchi, Boeser, Tanev etc. He is by no means suspect defensively this is proof.

His icetime of around 11:40 mins per game by the end of the year was 2nd from the bottom on the team for those over 40 games (only Dowd was less, despite getting increased time over the last 20 - that gives you an idea of how low it must have been prior). Despite this fact of very low average toi, he was third on the team in hits, the highest hitting forward at 156 (despite the 2nd lowest TOI over the season for those over 40 games), and only one hit behind Edler who clearly has ALOT more ice and opportunity to hit. I would say your claim of him being "no where near as physical as fans suggest" is clearly false based on the combination of hits (leading forward and #3 on the team one behind #2) and 2nd lowest average time on ice(for those over 40 games played). Basically Jake is a hitting machine based on that data. Again, second lowest avg TOI (for those over 40 games played), leading forward in hits, and one behind Edler for 2nd overall on the team.

As for points, I am not sure how he's supposed to get more that 20 points when he's not seeing the ice (as above) and has been asked to focus on defense (which again the stats PROVE he did). It was only over the last 20 games where he began to start seeing some offensive deployment. The switch doesn't just turn on when you've been driven to focus on D, he's not going to cheat just to get points, he's going to try and work on the things coaches asked of him and still play 200 ft. By the way, the advanced stats back up my assertion here as well. He was 19th on the team in offensive zone starts at 44.8%, he was 16th in defensive zone starts at 55.2% - clearly he was being use materially more in a defensive role (44.8% vs 55.2 %). For players over 40 games he was 6th on the team in defensive zone starts. Only Dowd, Tanev, Sutter, Granlund and Gudbrason were higher (the core defensive players - so he's part of that group).

As an objective party, if you cant see his improved play over the last 20 games, I don't know what to say, Green clearly did because he gave him alot more ice and offensive opportunity. And while he didnt 'finish" he was clearly creating alot of opporutnity, anyone watching could see that.

Many people on this site bash Jake, but use 'opinion'. When you look at the data, his deployment, and think about what that data says ( based on the advanced statistics), its very clear many of the criticisms are unwarranted as they are patently false -ie poor defensively, isn't overly physical, and yes didn't put up points but you need to be on the ice enough and consistently put in offensive situations, which he wasn't.

I hope to share this post with many others who critisize Jake. Take the time to read it, think about what the stats say sir, and all the criticisms out there about him. The stats I just shared PROVE without a doubt, most of the bashing on this site vs Jake comes from people who's 'eye test' is not very good at evaluating talent and the reality of a players effectiveness.

It also proves what I've been saying, that the coaching staff is bringing him along slowly and wanting him to focus on defense first, which he did, which slowly earned some offensive opportunity.

That is actually solid work with the data.

Don't necessarily agree with every conclusion you are coming from but good job still.
 

Canucks1096

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Dishonest about what? LMAO -what does that even mean? Dishonest about him having hands? LOL

1. to score 40 goals at the major junior level you need offensive hockey IQ -does it mean you'll score 40 in the NHL no, but you need high offensive awareness

2. To put yourself in the right positions offensively to score 40 goals you need a high hockey IQ

3. To know when to release the puck to beat a goalie you need a high hockey IQ

4. To snipe like he does, you need to know where the holes are on a goalie, how to move him to open up those holes, when to release the puck etc, which rqire a high hockey IQ

It is clear you've never laced them up son. LOL, Junior goalies don't let a shot in because its hard lol...omg



Go to 2.20 of this video. Virtanen is ranked 3 out of 5 for his Hockey IQ. If you watch the whole 1st round picks of the draft. 3 out of 5 is one of lowest out all the 1st round picks. I think when you get 3 out of 5 for Hockey IQ. I think it's fair to say his hockey IQ is not that great. So Virtanen scored 45 goals and the scouts have his hockey IQ ranked low.

So yes you can have low hockey IQ and still scored in chl.
 

NucksRock

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Go to 2.20 of this video. Virtanen is ranked 3 out of 5 for his Hockey IQ. If you watch the whole 1st round picks of the draft. 3 out of 5 is one of lowest out all the 1st round picks. I think when you get 3 out of 5 for Hockey IQ. I think it's fair to say his hockey IQ is not that great. So Virtanen scored 45 goals and the scouts have his hockey IQ ranked low.

So yes you can have low hockey IQ and still scored in chl.


cool - Petterson was not supposed to be #5 either....scouts can be right and wrong. funny how all your jake bashing is baseless based on the advanced stats I provided but no addressing those hey?

Just some immeasurable, subjective, and esoteric idea of "hockey iq" lol....thats all you got left hey?

Actual data proves all you Jake Haters wrong, and your fall back is something that cannot be measured LOL

endless nonsense
 

Canucks1096

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cool - Petterson was not supposed to be #5 either....scouts can be right and wrong. funny how all your jake bashing is baseless based on the advanced stats I provided but no addressing those hey?

Just some immeasurable idea of "hockey iq" lol....thats all you got left hey?

So Pettersson proved the scouts wrong with his play this year. What has Virtanen done to prove the scouts wrong?
 
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NucksRock

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cool - Petterson was not supposed to be #5 either....scouts can be right and wrong. funny how all your jake bashing is baseless based on the advanced stats I provided but no addressing those hey?

Just some immeasurable, subjective, and esoteric idea of "hockey iq" lol....thats all you got left hey?

Actual data proves all you Jake Haters wrong, and your fall back is something that cannot be measured LOL

endless nonsense

I guess we'll see won't we. Its been explained not every player comes into the league day one and lights it up, the data i provided FULLY EXPLANED WITH FACTUAL MEASURABLE DATA, how he's being used, and how that affects his point total, aka lack of opportunity to up his offensive numbers.

It seems either you cant comprehend the post you responded to initially, or didn't read it since this question was addressed there. and of course again, with hard data.

so rather than you asking the same thing over and over, and over, in different way and skirtng the reality that you have no ground to stand on in this debate (as a way to deflect from that reality of course), go read it over and over or ask someone to help you understand it.
 

Canucks1096

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I guess we'll see won't we. Its been explained not every player comes into the league day one and lights it up, the data i provided FULLY EXPLANED WITH FACTUAL MEASURABLE DATA, how he's being used, and how that affects his point total, aka lack of opportunity to up his offensive numbers.

It seems either you cant comprehend the post you responded to initially, or didn't read it since this question was addressed there. and of course again, with hard data.

so rather than you asking the same thing over and over, and over, in different way and skirtng the reality that you have no ground to stand on in this debate (as a way to deflect from that reality of course), go read it over and over or ask someone to help you understand it.

More that half on what you are saying is not even true. It's just bunch of generalization from you. You can't just look at what you want to look at. For examples I said Virtanen makes a lot of mistakes on the ice. You reply back with he has more takeaways than Giveaways. Doesn't matter how many takeaways he has. The fact is Virtanen does have the 2nd most giveaways among all the forwards. So with that fact I can say he is making a lot of mistakes. Regardless of how many takeaways he has it still doesn't change the fact he is still giving the puck a lot.

Five on five Virtanen two most Frequent linemates was the Sedins this year. So is Green is telling Virtnanen I am going to put you with Sedins but just play defence with them. Of course not. By you saying Green is telling Virtanen to only focus on defence is ridiculous.

Ask yourself this question if Virtanen so great Defensively. Why are you saying Green is telling him to only focus on defence? One argument you are saying Virtanen is great defensively. Another argument you are saying Virtanen is not producing points because he is working on defensive side of the game with Greem. So you are indirectly saying Virtanen is not great defensively.

You are all over maps with argument. Pick one lane and stick with it. Stop changing lanes.

So answer this question. So Virtanen got the ice time in the last 20 games. So how come he only had 5 points? One of your argument is Virtanen couldn't put up more points with his low ice time. When he did get the ice time He still couldn't produce. So what you are saying is not true.

You need stop making excuses. You even said so yourself Green is working with Virtanen on his 200 foot game. 200 foot game is offence and defence. Another argument you are saying Green is working on defensive side with Green only. I am getting headache reading your post.
 
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NucksRock

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More that half on what you are saying is not even true. It's just bunch of generalization from you. You can't just look at what you want to look at. For examples I said Virtanen makes a lot of mistakes on the ice. You reply back with he has more takeaways than Giveaways. Doesn't matter how many takeaways he has. The fact is Virtanen does have the 2nd most giveaways among all the forwards. So with that fact I can say he is making a lot of mistakes. Regardless of how many takeaways he has it still doesn't change the fact he is still giving the puck a lot.

Five on five Virtanen two most Frequent linemates was the Sedins this year. So is Green is telling Virtnanen I am going to put you with Sedins but just play defence with them. Of course not. By you saying Green is telling Virtanen to only focus on defence is ridiculous.

Ask yourself this question if Virtanen so great Defensively. Why are you saying Green is telling him to only focus on defence? One argument you are saying Virtanen is great defensively. Another argument you are saying Virtanen is not producing points because he is working on defensive side of the game with Greem. So you are indirectly saying Virtanen is not great defensively.

You are all over maps with argument. Pick one lane and stick with it. Stop changing lanes.

So answer this question. So Virtanen got the ice time in the last 20 games. So how come he only had 5 points? One of your argument is Virtanen couldn't put up more points with his low ice time. When he did get the ice time He still couldn't produce. So what you are saying is not true.

You need stop making excuses. You even said so yourself Green is working with Virtanen on his 200 foot game. 200 foot game is offence and defence. Another argument you are saying Green is working on defensive side with Green only. I am getting headache reading your post.

Why do you lie? Do you think lying makes your argument sound?

Bolded areas

1. Jake's most consistent linemates was the not Sedins! LOL so he had 11 minutes per game but was playing on the first line? WHY ARE YOU LYING - STOP IT LOL. What are you talking about? LOL This is JUST SAD, YOU OUTRIGHT MAKE UP A STORY TO TRY AND DEFEND YOUR POSITION? I really should have stopped there, but I'll play your 'game'.

2. He had 32 give aways in 75 games guy, that's .42 give aways per game, that doesn't sound like he's bad defensively. And yes takeaways matter because all players give up the puck, the ability to take the puckaway and be net positive tells you if you're a net positive player defensively LOL - which he is! You act like second on the canucks is a big issue but ignore the net position of his takeway giveaway ratio, not to mention there are 4 guys within a 7 differential, all of whom he's better at on the takeaway side.

3. Your comments dont seem to exhibit an understading of how the canucks develop players-ensure good habits in your own end first.

4. Also, the criticism I responded to was he was 'awful' defensively- no where did i say he was 'great defensively, he is developing, get it? He is a young player DEVELOPING WHICH MEANS HE NEEDS TO IMPROVE ALL FACETS OF HIS GAME. The advanced stats I provided, SIMPLY PROVED THE CLAIM THAT HE WAS AWFUL IN HIS OWN END false. Did I say he was a stalward? No just that he's pretty good defensively, the coach used him that way, and clearly th reward of extra ice late in the year is because he was DOING A GOOD JOB.

Look you want to hate Jake good for you. Stop wasting my time if you are unable to comprehend the information I provided. I am basically explaining a post which was clearly over your head, then you will respond with more nonsense and have me have to explain it again. This is what I said in my last post. I get it, I "know it", you do it well

Move on, the stats dont lie. Unlike someone who states Jake played with the twins for most of the year LOL

SMH pathetic really, grow up, this Jake bashing game is getting old.
 
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Canucks1096

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Why do you lie? Do you think lying makes your argument sound?

Bolded areas

1. Jake's most consistent linemates was the not Sedins! LOL so he had 11 minutes per game but was playing on the first line? WHY ARE YOU LYING - STOP IT LOL. What are you talking about? LOL This is JUST SAD, YOU OUTRIGHT MAKE UP A STORY TO TRY AND DEFEND YOUR POSITION? I really should have stopped there, but I'll play your 'game'.

2. He had 32 give aways in 75 games guy, that's .42 give aways per game, that doesn't sound like he's bad defensively. And yes takeaways matter because all players give up the puck, the ability to take the puckaway and be net positive tells you if you're a net positive player defensively LOL - which he is! You act like second on the canucks is a big issue but ignore the net position of his takeway giveaway ratio, not to mention there are 4 guys within a 7 differential, all of whom he's better at on the takeaway side.

3. Your comments dont seem to exhibit an understading of how the canucks develop players-ensure good habits in your own end first.

4. Also, the criticism I responded to was he was 'awful' defensively- no where did i say he was 'great defensively, he is developing, get it? He is a young player DEVELOPING WHICH MEANS HE NEEDS TO IMPROVE ALL FACETS OF HIS GAME. The advanced stats I provided, SIMPLY PROVED THE CLAIM THAT HE WAS AWFUL IN HIS OWN END false. Did I say he was a stalward? No just that he's pretty good defensively, the coach used him that way, and clearly th reward of extra ice late in the year is because he was DOING A GOOD JOB.

Look you want to hate Jake good for you. Stop wasting my time if you are unable to comprehend the information I provided. I am basically explaining a post which was clearly over your head, then you will respond with more nonsense and have me have to explain it again. This is what I said in my last post. I get it, I "know it", you do it well

Move on, the stats dont lie. Unlike someone who states Jake played with the twins for most of the year LOL

SMH pathetic really, grow up, this Jake bashing game is getting old.

Frozen Tools - Jake Virtanen

Click under line combination. 18.4 percent of the time was with the Sedins. The highest out of any other players.

Playing with the Sedins proves that you are wrong when you said Green just told Virtanen to play well defensively and don't care about offense. The first few months of the season he was actually over 60% offensive zone starts.
 
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VanJack

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I see a lot of similarities with Alex Tuch, another right wing, power forward from that 2014 draft....had 15 goals and 22 assists in Vegas last season, and I'm sure the Wild regret losing him......something similar seems a reasonable prediction for Virtanen.
 

Peter10

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I see a lot of similarities with Alex Tuch, another right wing, power forward from that 2014 draft....had 15 goals and 22 assists in Vegas last season, and I'm sure the Wild regret losing him......something similar seems a reasonable prediction for Virtanen.

May I ask how you come to that conclusion? Is it just position, power forward and same draft year?

Of course both have a different development part as Tuch went through colleague so it is a bit difficult to compare but both played in the majority of the 16-17 season in the AHL so there is that. In AHL totals Tuch is absolutly crashing Jakes numbers. Tuch comes in with 42 pts in 60 games (0.70 p/g) while Jake struggled to 19 points in 67 games (0.28 p/g)
 

DL44

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This dude's hockey IQ is laughably low. What a bust, sheesh.
And yet hes so good at reading the play on the backcheck defensively, getting into passing lanes, and turning the play back up the ice which takes a pretty high level of awareness/IQ to do...

So what is he.. half smart half dumb?
 

PuckMunchkin

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And yet hes so good at reading the play on the backcheck defensively, getting into passing lanes, and turning the play back up the ice which takes a pretty high level of awareness to do...

So what is he.. half smart half dumb?

He is a pretty good skater.
 
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