Player Discussion Jake Virtanen | Jake It Or Break It Edition

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F A N

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Booth was good pre-concussion. He had that one 60 point season, but was more a 20-20 player. Kinda what I see JV's top-end range being, considering he is also held back by hockey IQ like Booth. They both have that great neutral zone skating ability and net drive (occasionally), but really just lack offensive awareness. That still makes a useful player, just not as good as we'd hope he'd be.

I disagree with your assessment. Booth at his pre-concussion best didn't just score goals off the rush. Sure he scored goals like Virtanen did off Leipsic's feed. But he also scored goals around the net and off wrist shots that looked more like the type of goals Boeser scores. He scored in a variety of different ways. He aims his passes at skates though.
 

Tb0ne

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Jake Virtanen

Home30145-926502.00000010:5765:43
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[TBODY] [/TBODY]

Roughly the same number of shots at home/away, but still only 1 goal in Vancouver.
 

Canucks1096

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I do see some posters saying Virtanen will peak at 30 to 40 points. I say 30 points max. Maybe a few points over. Reason being last season there were 52 players that had over 40 esp. I don't see Virtanen being a top 50 scorers in esp. Which mean Virtanen needs to get pp time and also produce on the pp. I don't see Virtanen being effective at all on the pp. His game is just not suitable on the pp. Most or all of Virtanen points will be on the pp. 40 points is a lot.
 

DL44

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Experience. With experience he'll learn to become effective on the PP.

Albeit a short sample... that run of games he had with the twins, he basically went to slot area as the twins did their thing, as the shots came in from the point or elsewhere deflecting to the corners, his job was to retrieve and get it back up the boards to a twin or the point and keep the play going... now it didn't work out since the line didn't gel in the more dynamic parts of the ice... But you saw a glimpse how he could be effective as a net front presence a man up.

The short time he was tried on the PP recently, he was given a couple shifts in the Boeser spot on the 2nd unit.... didn't get a great sample since the unit as a whole failed to get significant zone time.

We'll see with experience.
 

Intangibos

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So much wrong with this.
You're mistaking their hockey careers peaking (level of hockey achieved) vs the player's actual ability peaking. There's a significant difference.

That's quite the general statement. And a liberal use of 'elite'.
I don't think we ever saw Hansen take over and change the game over the course of his shifts like Virtanen did in the Detroit game. Or even last game.. They are physically different types of players. Virtanen is trending towards being more than being a 3rd liner.
"Hansen has shown more on both sides of the puck than Virtanen has so far" is also kinda irrelevant since we're talking about projecting to Virtanen's peak. Hansen at the same age didn't show anything comparable to what Virtanen has been capable at so far.

Elite players and Elite[role] are different. Rypien was not elite at hockey but he was an elite fighter relatively speaking. Manny Malhotra wasn't an NHL star but he was an elite 3C. The context I used "elite" is in relation to Hansen's 3rd line peers. Hansen was a very very good 3rd liner, top of the class IMO. 3rd liners don't take over games, though they absolutely change the game in their way.

It's also not irrelevant when we're talking about Virtanen's peak. Virtanen has a far higher ceiling than becoming Jannik Hansen, and it's not even close. However, there have been a number of roadblocks along the way. I think maybe your comparable is just wrong because they are not similar players at all. Hansen at the same age didn't show anything comparable to Virtanen because they're fundamentally different players.


How can my opinion be wrong? It's an opinion. Go ahead and disagree with it. But it's isn't wrong. I think it IS a foregone conclusion.

Opinions can be wrong, and there is nothing wrong with having a wrong opinion. There are people who have an opinion that the world is flat, their opinion is wrong.

I think you are misremembering the exact type of player Hansen was prior to his final two seasons with the Canucks. Defensively - very good effort player, physically limited, PK capable. - Offensively -One of the more infuriating lack of hands/lack of finish/skate all over-accomplish little type players. Was not a great fan till he started producing.

Floor.

Yes, Hansen was that player. Why is Virtanen even comparable? Virtanen is not as good defensively as Hansen, and has far more offensive ability. Hansen had hands of stone, Virtanen has all the tools. Virtanen also isn't "physically limited" as you described Hansen. Not only that but Hansen actually seemed to use his linemates effectively even if he couldn't shoot the puck. So why are they even comparable at all? I'm not going to say Tanev is similar to Mitchell because they are both excellent defensive D.

A far more accurate comparison for what Virtanen should aim for is David Booth, though I've stated this opinion many many times here. David Booth was a 25-30+ goal scorer who used his size and speed, but didn't use his linemates very effectively. Virtanen can be so much more than Booth, and he could be less than Booth, but that should be his target. I certainly would not describe Hansen as "bad Booth" because although there are similarities they end at speed and nose for the net.
 
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DL44

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Elite players and Elite[role] are different. Rypien was not elite at hockey but he was an elite fighter relatively speaking. Manny Malhotra wasn't an NHL star but he was an elite 3C. The context I used "elite" is in relation to Hansen's 3rd line peers. Hansen was a very very good 3rd liner, top of the class IMO. 3rd liners don't take over games, though they absolutely change the game in their way.

It's also not irrelevant when we're talking about Virtanen's peak. Virtanen has a far higher ceiling than becoming Jannik Hansen, and it's not even close. However, there have been a number of roadblocks along the way. I think maybe your comparable is just wrong because they are not similar players at all. Hansen at the same age didn't show anything comparable to Virtanen because they're fundamentally different players.
I wasn't the one that brought up the comparable.

Opinions can be wrong, and there is nothing wrong with having a wrong opinion. There are people who have an opinion that the world is flat, their opinion is wrong.
An opinion can be wrong when it goes against a fact. My opinion goes against no established fact. My opinion goes against your opinion. My opinion is not wrong.

Yes, Hansen was that player. Why is Virtanen even comparable? Virtanen is not as good defensively as Hansen, and has far more offensive ability. Hansen had hands of stone, Virtanen has all the tools. Virtanen also isn't "physically limited" as you described Hansen. Not only that but Hansen actually seemed to use his linemates effectively even if he couldn't shoot the puck. So why are they even comparable at all? I'm not going to say Tanev is similar to Mitchell because they are both excellent defensive D.

I agree. I didn't bring up Hansen as a comparable. I don't think they are comparable... part of the reason Hansen would be a floor expectation for me. Kreider would be more in line.. .. and Jake's ahead of him at the same age... yes yes.. linear development blah blah...
 

kanuck87

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A far more accurate comparison for what Virtanen should aim for is David Booth, though I've stated this opinion many many times here. David Booth was a 25-30+ goal scorer who used his size and speed, but didn't use his linemates very effectively. Virtanen can be so much more than Booth, and he could be less than Booth, but that should be his target. I certainly would not describe Hansen as "bad Booth" because although there are similarities they end at speed and nose for the net.

I really like Booth as a comparison for Virtanen. I would like to see him challenge defenders in the middle of the ice more, but I feel like Virtanen is just finally starting to realize what he can do in the NHL with that size and speed. Pushing 230 pounds with that kind of speed is rare.
 

Intangibos

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I wasn't the one that brought up the comparable.

I agree. I didn't bring up Hansen as a comparable. I don't think they are comparable... part of the reason Hansen would be a floor expectation for me. Kreider would be more in line.. .. and Jake's ahead of him at the same age... yes yes.. linear development blah blah...

Ah my mistake then, but lets not forget at the start of the season many people were writing him off as a bust, and not just Canuck fans. I think where he's at now is his floor, and I don't think he's as valuable as Hansen was. If he actually continues his progress, which has been pretty good this season, then maybe. I think with the way he's improved it's likely he'll hit a Hansen level, but I don't think that's quite his floor either. Maybe a low expectations kind of thing.

An opinion can be wrong when it goes against a fact. My opinion goes against no established fact. My opinion goes against your opinion. My opinion is not wrong.
My opinion was that your opinion was wrong, though. Now is my opinion wrong for thinking that opinions can be wrong?

Czechm8 kid
 

Canucks1096

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I really like Booth as a comparison for Virtanen. I would like to see him challenge defenders in the middle of the ice more, but I feel like Virtanen is just finally starting to realize what he can do in the NHL with that size and speed. Pushing 230 pounds with that kind of speed is rare.

I don't think Virtanen is 230 pounds.
 

Canucks1096

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It's also not irrelevant when we're talking about Virtanen's peak. Virtanen has a far higher ceiling than becoming Jannik Hansen, and it's not even close. However, there have been a number of roadblocks along the way. I think maybe your comparable is just wrong because they are not similar players at all. Hansen at the same age didn't show anything comparable to Virtanen because they're fundamentally different players.

Yes, Hansen was that player. Why is Virtanen even comparable? Virtanen is not as good defensively as Hansen, and has far more offensive ability. Hansen had hands of stone, Virtanen has all the tools. Virtanen also isn't "physically limited" as you described Hansen.

So you think Virtanen has a higher ceiling: what are you basing that on? He skates really fast? He skate the puck up ice and takes a long shot on goal? Once in a blue moon he can take the puck to the net? You do realize last three seasons Virtanen point total was 13 nhl 19 ahl and so far 17. What upside are we actually seeing?maybe I need thicker glasses because I am not seeing it.

So Hansen Peak was 39 points. You think Virtanen has a much higher ceiling and it's not even close. A player that struggle to get 20 points in 3 straight years and one of them is in the AHL and you still think has a much higher ceiling than a player that had 39 points before? Can you even think of a scorer right now that went 3 straight seasons where he couldn't get more than 20 points a season and all of sudden became a scorer? I can't

Virtanen has the skating ability but he doesn't have the puck skills or the hockey sense. There is reason why a lot of times when Virtanen is carrying the puck and he ends up losing because he doesn't have puck skills.

I really think Virtanen sexy skating is just tricking some of guys into thinking he is better player that he really is.

I still remember Brandon Reid. I know there completely different player. Reid always skates the puck up ice and doesn't do anything with it. I remember a lot poster though he was some future scorer. Sexy skating always tricks people. Don't be fool by it.
 

Intangibos

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So you think Virtanen has a higher ceiling: what are you basing that on? He skates really fast? He skate the puck up ice and takes a long shot on goal? Once in a blue moon he can take the puck to the net? You do realize last three seasons Virtanen point total was 13 nhl 19 ahl and so far 17. What upside are we actually seeing?maybe I need thicker glasses because I am not seeing it.

So Hansen Peak was 39 points. You think Virtanen has a much higher ceiling and it's not even close. A player that struggle to get 20 points in 3 straight years and one of them is in the AHL and you still think has a much higher ceiling than a player that had 39 points before? Can you even think of a scorer right now that went 3 straight seasons where he couldn't get more than 20 points a season and all of sudden became a scorer? I can't

Virtanen has the skating ability but he doesn't have the puck skills or the hockey sense. There is reason why a lot of times when Virtanen is carrying the puck and he ends up losing because he doesn't have puck skills.

I really think Virtanen sexy skating is just tricking some of guys into thinking he is better player that he really is.

I still remember Brandon Reid. I know there completely different player. Reid always skates the puck up ice and doesn't do anything with it. I remember a lot poster though he was some future scorer. Sexy skating always tricks people. Don't be fool by it.

What do you think ceiling means? It's the higher end of his potential. He's been very disappointing thus far but he was a top 10 pick for a reason. He has the tools to be a very good player in this league, 25G+. David Booth has terrible hockey IQ and he managed to score 30+
 

F A N

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I really like Booth as a comparison for Virtanen. I would like to see him challenge defenders in the middle of the ice more, but I feel like Virtanen is just finally starting to realize what he can do in the NHL with that size and speed. Pushing 230 pounds with that kind of speed is rare.

Comparisons are comparisons (can be useful to a degree but not completely). The problem with the David Booth comparison is that Booth pre-concussion was a different player, his physical conditioning was not an issue but his hockey training was, and Virtanen is a much better passer than David Booth.

So there's basically at least two different versions of David Booth to compare Virtanen to and Virtanen if thinking pass can and does make players that Booth can't and did not.
 

M2Beezy

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Brutal game completely unreliable. One game good one game bad thats who he is. Which is better then last year of one game good 15 games bad

Progress i suppose

Painfully slow tho well watching guys like Nylander and Pastaneck just flying out there scoring MOUNTAINS of goals :(
 
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So you think Virtanen has a higher ceiling: what are you basing that on? He skates really fast? He skate the puck up ice and takes a long shot on goal? Once in a blue moon he can take the puck to the net? You do realize last three seasons Virtanen point total was 13 nhl 19 ahl and so far 17. What upside are we actually seeing?maybe I need thicker glasses because I am not seeing it.

So Hansen Peak was 39 points. You think Virtanen has a much higher ceiling and it's not even close. A player that struggle to get 20 points in 3 straight years and one of them is in the AHL and you still think has a much higher ceiling than a player that had 39 points before? Can you even think of a scorer right now that went 3 straight seasons where he couldn't get more than 20 points a season and all of sudden became a scorer? I can't

Virtanen has the skating ability but he doesn't have the puck skills or the hockey sense. There is reason why a lot of times when Virtanen is carrying the puck and he ends up losing because he doesn't have puck skills.

I really think Virtanen sexy skating is just tricking some of guys into thinking he is better player that he really is.

I still remember Brandon Reid. I know there completely different player. Reid always skates the puck up ice and doesn't do anything with it. I remember a lot poster though he was some future scorer. Sexy skating always tricks people. Don't be fool by it.

Hansen wasn’t even in the League at Jakes age and how can you compare someone’s stats in their prime vs his second season in the NHL? Jake hasn’t even played one whole season yet if you go by games played. The type of game Jake plays involves physical maturation and you won’t see that until his mid to later 20’s
 

Canucks1096

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Hansen wasn’t even in the League at Jakes age and how can you compare someone’s stats in their prime vs his second season in the NHL? Jake hasn’t even played one whole season yet if you go by games played. The type of game Jake plays involves physical maturation and you won’t see that until his mid to later 20’s

Sure we can. Everybody on this thread is predicting how many points Virtanen will get. If someone said Virtanen upside is Booth. That means they think Virtanen Peak is better than Hansen. If someone said Virtanen Peak is 30 points. That means they think Hansen Peak is better. As of right now Virtanen hasn't shown he can develope and get 39 points. So you think a player that struggle to get 20 points for 3 straight years all of sudden is going develope into scorer? That doesn't happen. When someone develope into scorer you can see the potential at a young age. For Virtanen all you see is skate very fast and if he carries the puck he loses the puck at center ice and take a long shot.

So it takes about 10 years for a player like Virtanen to develope? Can you give me examples of players that were similiar to Virtanen that took 10 years to develope?

I admit a player like Virtanen they do take longer to develope usually. However most of those players dominated the chl/college/AHL. If they didn't they started to be solid player in the nhl at young age like Lucic and Simmonds. Virtanen neither.
 

Canucks1096

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What do you think ceiling means? It's the higher end of his potential. He's been very disappointing thus far but he was a top 10 pick for a reason. He has the tools to be a very good player in this league, 25G+. David Booth has terrible hockey IQ and he managed to score 30+

He was top 10 pick because scouts thought he had high Potential but scouts can be wrong. So you think a player that struggle to get 20 points a season for 3 straight years is all of sudden going to improve to 25 G?

Give me some examples of players that did that? That just doesn't happen.
 

Intangibos

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Dude... i'll get an infraction for this.. but you are clearly an idiot.

- first the failure to understand failure to advance in levels vs developmental peak
- failing to understand what an opinion is
- your understanding of what NHL elite is
- and for "I think where he's at now is his floor, and I don't think he's as valuable as Hansen was. If he actually continues his progress, which has been pretty good this season, then maybe. I think with the way he's improved it's likely he'll hit a Hansen level, but I don't think that's quite his floor either. Maybe a low expectations kind of thing."
- and for thinking "Czechm8 kid"

Brutal. Congrats.

I think he's at his floor now because there is a chance he will not improve at all. This is his floor. His development thus far hasn't exactly wowed many people and I think it's a possibility this is the level he plays at for his career. I'm hopeful that he will improve but it's not a foregone conclusion that he will. Maybe you could define 'failure to advance in levels vs developmental peak' because maybe you're not very good at expressing your thoughts. He is not better than Hansen at any point. Young Hansen is better than current Virtanen. I also think there is a possibility that Virtanen will not improve at all while I think he could be far better than Hansen. I'm not sure what I'm not understanding here, so if you think I'm the one with the problem maybe you could actually clarify your opinions rather than attacking people.

My opinion was that your opinion was wrong. I disagree with opinions because they are contrary to what my opinions are. I believe I'm right, so that means I believe you're wrong. If you want to get into some technical argument about whether or not you can say someone's opinion wrong, good for you, but wow.

I understand what an NHL elite is, but apparently you don't understand English as I outlined exactly what I meant. Hansen was among the best at his role. This might be the strangest thing that you've been unable to grasp since I specifically said in what context it was being used. Saying someone is elite at a certain facet of the game is very different than saying they're elite in general. Crosby is an elite player, Malhotra was an elite 3C, Hansen was an elite 3RW. Even Tambellini was elite in the shootout but he certainly wasn't an elite player.

Saying someone is elite at a specific thing or role is not even remotely uncommon.

Not sure what's wrong with the other bit you quoted. I think his floor is where he is now, I think it's possible he'll never improve, and I think he's worse than Hansen than Hansen was at any point in his career. I also think Virtanen has a good chance of improving significantly. Maybe you're confused about what floor means? It means the bottom end of his potential, which is where he is right now.

Also way to be antifun about Czechm8. Instead of being rude, maybe you could actually make a proper response instead of this drivel that attacks me? I wouldn't even mind being attacked if you provided any type of context or arguments, but you couldn't even muster that. Pathetic post, though I expected as much which is why I don't reply to your posts very often.

He was top 10 pick because scouts thought he had high Potential but scouts can be wrong. So you think a player that struggle to get 20 points a season for 3 straight years is all of sudden going to improve to 25 G?

Give me some examples of players that did that? That just doesn't happen.

I don't have any off the top of my head that went from 20p to 25G, but the Sedins for example more than doubled their point totals from their first 4 years in the league. They were 40 point players who made the jump to consistent 80 point players after the lockout. Joel Ward is a guy who didn't make the NHL as a regular until he was like 27 and for 2 years had a 0.3PPG pace in the AHL just like Virtanen, except at a much older age.

Virtanen has been extremely underwhelming, but he has shown flashes of good play. He has a shot, he can skate, and he does have more offensive instincts than people give him credit for.
 
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DL44

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I think he's at his floor now because there is a chance he will not improve at all. This is his floor. His development thus far hasn't exactly wowed many people and I think it's a possibility this is the level he plays at for his career. I'm hopeful that he will improve but it's not a foregone conclusion that he will. Maybe you could define 'failure to advance in levels vs developmental peak' because maybe you're not very good at expressing your thoughts. He is not better than Hansen at any point. Young Hansen is better than current Virtanen. I also think there is a possibility that Virtanen will not improve at all while I think he could be far better than Hansen. I'm not sure what I'm not understanding here, so if you think I'm the one with the problem maybe you could actually clarify your opinions rather than attacking people.

My opinion was that your opinion was wrong. I disagree with opinions because they are contrary to what my opinions are. I believe I'm right, so that means I believe you're wrong. If you want to get into some technical argument about whether or not you can say someone's opinion wrong, good for you, but wow.

I understand what an NHL elite is, but apparently you don't understand English as I outlined exactly what I meant. Hansen was among the best at his role. This might be the strangest thing that you've been unable to grasp since I specifically said in what context it was being used. Saying someone is elite at a certain facet of the game is very different than saying they're elite in general. Crosby is an elite player, Malhotra was an elite 3C, Hansen was an elite 3RW. Even Tambellini was elite in the shootout but he certainly wasn't an elite player.

Saying someone is elite at a specific thing or role is not even remotely uncommon.

Not sure what's wrong with the other bit you quoted. I think his floor is where he is now, I think it's possible he'll never improve, and I think he's worse than Hansen than Hansen was at any point in his career. I also think Virtanen has a good chance of improving significantly. Maybe you're confused about what floor means? It means the bottom end of his potential, which is where he is right now.

Also way to be antifun about Czechm8. Instead of being rude, maybe you could actually make a proper response instead of this drivel that attacks me? I wouldn't even mind being attacked if you provided any type of context or arguments, but you couldn't even muster that. Pathetic post, though I expected as much which is why I don't reply to your posts very often.

Too funny.. just stop... it's done.
 

rune74

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Brutal game completely unreliable. One game good one game bad thats who he is. Which is better then last year of one game good 15 games bad

Progress i suppose

Painfully slow tho well watching guys like Nylander and Pastaneck just flying out there scoring MOUNTAINS of goals :(

And off the bus...

Painfully slow? Are you referring to his speed? Really?

Canucks army actually said he had a good game considering, lots of hits in the game. He didn't get the goal on the pass, but can you point to me where he was bad out there? Break it down so I understand your mindset.

He has had like 10 games in a row good....the whole team did a stinker here, but you found your way to blame him.
 
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