Player Discussion Jake "Big Tuna" Virtanen | XVII Nikolaj Who...?

[rune74]

19

Rgr, point still stands.

 

[Shareefruck]

No, you are absolutely wrong and I won't stand for this type of revisionist history. Virtanen didn't deserve to make the NHL and looked completely in over his head during his rookie season save and except for a two week period in the spring. Decent players in the NHL are not poor players in the WJCs - it simply doesn't happen.

Well on one hand there is your opinion, and on the other there is statistical evidence that says something quite different.

As far as WJC performance - there are many players who had outstanding performances at the WJCs who have bombed in the NHL. Nolan Baumgartner, Cody Hodgson, Kimbi Daniels, Stefan Legein, Greg Nemisz, Shawn Belle, ... Virtanen's biggest problem at the WJCs was that, trying to be physically aggressive, he took a couple of bad penalties and inopportune times. This is not actually a tournament that favours physically aggressive players.

I just want to point out the huge and sneaky straw-man switch-aroo that I noticed happening here. Hodgy argues that [poor players in the WJCs never turn into decent players in the NHL], and LeftCoast dismissed that by giving an argument against a completely different point that nobody made and that the statement didn't imply-- that [Good players in the WJCs always turn into decent players in the NHL.]

To validly contend Hodgy's point, you would need to do the opposite of that and give examples of players of who bombed in juniors but had outstanding NHL performances, instead.

 

[LeftCoast]

I just want to point out the huge and sneaky straw-man switch-aroo that I noticed happening here. Hodgy argues that [poor players in the WJCs never turn into decent players in the NHL], and LeftCoast dismissed that by giving an argument against a completely different point that nobody made and that the statement didn't imply-- that [Good players in the WJCs always turn into decent players in the NHL.]

To validly contend Hodgy's point, you would need to do the opposite of that and give examples of players of who bombed in juniors but had outstanding NHL performances, instead.

Or perhaps the point is that success in the WJC doesn't necessarily translate into success in the NHL? It's far easier to find the WJC stars that didn't make it in the NHL because it's far more noteworthy. There have been hundreds of players who were cut or never considered for their national junior teams who have become very good NHLers. The entire Finnish team grossly under performed last year to the point that the coaching staff were all fired, but that didn't stop Miro Heiskanen (1 assist in 6 games) from being drafted 3rd overall or Juuso Vallimaki from being take at #16 or Urho Vaakanainen being taken at #18. Jakob Chychrun played terribly at the summer camp and was cut from the 2015 WJC team while Ollli Juolevi dominated won a gold medal and was voted the WJC All Star Team - but which one is playing in the NHL now?

Tyler Seguin and Matt Duchene were cut from the 2010 team (but not Greg Nemisz or Stefan Della Rovere). Pat Quinn picked goalies Chet Pickard and Dustin Tokarski over Braden Holtby in 2008. And this leaves out the "undersized" guys like Tory Krug and late bloomers like Joe Pavelski, Marc Edouard Vlasic and Gustav Nyquist who were also left off their national teams.

 

[Shareefruck]

Or perhaps the point is that success in the WJC doesn't necessarily translate into success in the NHL? It's far easier to find the WJC stars that didn't make it in the NHL because it's far more noteworthy. There have been hundreds of players who were cut or never considered for their national junior teams who have become very good NHLers. The entire Finnish team grossly under performed last year to the point that the coaching staff were all fired, but that didn't stop Miro Heiskanen (1 assist in 6 games) from being drafted 3rd overall or Juuso Vallimaki from being take at #16 or Urho Vaakanainen being taken at #18. Jakob Chychrun played terribly at the summer camp and was cut from the 2015 WJC team while Ollli Juolevi dominated won a gold medal and was voted the WJC All Star Team - but which one is playing in the NHL now?

Tyler Seguin and Matt Duchene were cut from the 2010 team (but not Greg Nemisz or Stefan Della Rovere). Pat Quinn picked goalies Chet Pickard and Dustin Tokarski over Braden Holtby in 2008. And this leaves out the "undersized" guys like Tory Krug and late bloomers like Joe Pavelski, Marc Edouard Vlasic and Gustav Nyquist who were also left off their national teams.

Which is a point that has nothing to do with Hodgy's comment that you were replying to. He didn't suggest that success in juniors translates into success at the NHL level in that post. He suggested that it's a minimum prerequisite and that failure/mediocrity at the lower level doesn't translate into success at the higher level, which your original point did nothing to address.

I'm not doubting your overall view or your ability to form a valid argument for it after the fact, I'm just pointing out that your response was not a valid counter-point and was a misleading mis-representation of the argument that should be avoided.

 

[rune74]

Anyways...

this was funny:

 

[Pyromaniac]

Regarding the discussion on analytics, you have to dive a little deeper to see whether the results are meaningful. In Virtanen's case he may have played 55 games but he only averaged a little more than 11min of ice time every night. If he was playing 18min every night like top players that would only mean a 35 game sample size. He was also a rookie so you have to take a look at usage as well, was he being benched in situations when the team is protecting a lead in the 3rd period? That's usually when teams concede the most SA which is why sheltered rookies usually end up having great advanced stats relative to their teammates because they aren't on when the team is bleeding SA.

 

[ItalianCanuck1]

As I wrote on GDT, I think he played well yesterday.

The thing that I like about him is that he tries always to create something, he sees the space and try to build a dangerous shot and he has enough talent to do so.

The bad thing is that I didn't see a great chemistry with his two linemates in these two games,
He is often alone with zero support.

Hope it will change because I think Burmi and Gagner are skilled enough to give him help.

 

[Toxic0n]

I like the drive and work ethic I am seeing from Jake so far. If he keeps that up, he might end up a 20 goal scorer after all.

 

[VanJack]

So Virtanen and Ehlers are going head-to-head in tonight;s game...this, after Tkachuk's two goal night last night in L.A....read it and weep Canuckleheads!

 

[Tv9924]

Lay out Ehlers and score a goal and I'll cream myself

 

[Hollywood Burrows]

I saw a play last night where he had a step on a defender, and it looked like he was actually going to pull off one of his classic Junior superstar plays and blow right past him. He ended up mishandling the puck and backhanding a useless pass through the slot that was about a foot off the ice.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Okay Jake buddy. Give me five effective games and I'll change the thread title to something more inspiring.

 

[terrible dee]

I simply said he is trending up now, I guess that is controversial.

No,

He WAS trending up

Jake and players like him are VERY volatile stocks, one game is about all the leeway they get, after two bad or "less than effective" games, the trend will go south,

And at the moment, after a glorious pre-season, Jake is once again trending down,

But there is a little more to the situation than that, and that little more is a whole lot of bizarre

1. Put it this way, say I was secretly coaching the Canucks and Green was just a figurehead. And say someone came to me, one of my bosses, and said: "F**k Jake, fat boy with his roller hockey training system seems to think he's a big deal now that he's pre-season Gretzky, I don't think he's learned what happens when you embarrass the boss yet, but we're going to teach Beiber Buns a little respect, let him know who holds the two-for-one Mc Donald's coupons around here. We didn't sign all these Hockey-Hobos so they can fake injuries and drink aftershave down at Main and Hastings. This team is turning into a goddamn NHL welfare office! I want these useless mouth-breathers IN THE line-up, if all their gonna do this year is play grab-ass, then I want them doing it in a game ,and on the f**king ice! They threw a party in the locker room when Jake and Buck...Biff..whatever that other snot-nose's name is, had their little pre-season cup dynasty, their down there drinking aftershave chanting "Na-Na-na-na Hey-hey-hey, We're scratched!" F**k that! It's all Jake's fault he isn't even supposed to be here! I want that portly-poo-factory and his pretty boi besty...Bill...Boom...Boomer! Goddamn, that kid has a stupid name, tell Gudbransson to kick his ass in practice, and make sure you tape it, I wanna watch it by myself....anyway I want those two down in Utica, riding the pine wondering how it was they ever thought they were players! MAKE IT HAPPEN!"

Ok so, if that had happened in real life, I probably would have handled Brock and Jake (And not it seems even HORVAT?!?!) exactly how Green has been handling them.

In real life, I have NO IDEA why the Canucks are trying to sabotage their own prospects, it will take a few years before just how insanely stupid sitting Brock for the first two games was, I don't think Vancouver's collective brain could accept what they were seeing without rioting, so people have parroted the lame excuses as if they make sense.

But make no mistake, both Brock and Jake are being steered towards failure right now....again, "Why" I have no idea

 

[terrible dee]

Willie split up baertschi horvat virtanen in preseason 2 years ago when they had 14 points combined in 1 game.

He split them up the next game. It was the most insane thing I have ever seen and I guarentee Jake felt mega confused.

Green is here and ready to not be a lunatic twitchboard knobstache.

Ooooh realy?

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

He should be getting top 6 minutes in Utica.

 

[Addison Rae]

Best player on the ice for either team today, impressive. Looked like a completely lost prospect last year, he has found a new gear. Hoping he can turn into a good middle 6 winger.

 

[ItalianCanuck1]

Absolutely beastly game for Jake.

That first step allows him to create separation and takes a good shot. That's how you can shoot the puck nine times in a game, eight times in eight minutes on the ice.

I like so much how he fit with the twins and I hope to see their chemistry improving.

You can feel how much he's happy to be in NHL and how the fanbase and the teammates want him to succeed.

Obviously he will be always a non consensus pick, but he's a Canucks and the organization must try to maximize his talent. And man, today he shows he has enough talent to succeed in this league.

Keep going Jake.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

What the hell. There ya go, Jake. New thread title that should make certain people happy.

 

[CanaFan]

Very happy to see these last two games. Jake has developed terribly since being drafted but he may be a rare case who finds success despite all this. Always loved his tools and felt his combo of speed, power, and shot would be a handful at this level but then he proceeded to flatline for 3 years. This would be a redemption story for the ages.

 

[Yggdrasil]

as long he turns into a 30 goal scorer.

 

[PredsForPresidents]

as long he turns into a 30 goal scorer.

Multi*

 

[ProstheticConscience]

as long he turns into a 30 goal scorer.

Picky picky.

But seriously, nice going to JV. Keep up the good work, kid.

 

[PG Canuck]

as long he turns into a 30 goal scorer.

I'd be happy for anything positive at this point.

 

[VanJack]

Coaching appears to have made all the difference in Virtanen's game....now they just need to re-acquire McCann from Florida and start all over again with him.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I'd be happy for anything positive at this point.

nah, hes a #6 overall pick who we picked over ehlers and nylander...he has to show a hell of a lot more to make us not regret the pick later down the road...as things are looking up now...