Jack Johnson leaves Michigan and is a KING!!!

[Vagrant]

This is the ever so common post Getting Owned In a Trade Disease. I too have convinced myself that the Bruins didn't lose out so badly on the Thornton trade. You, like me, need help.

Why would I need help? If you still deny that Thornton wasn't a bad trade considering what he has given in terms of play to San Jose, then you'd have to be blind. There is nothing of the sort here. He has given the Kings nothing in terms of yield to this point. Nothing at all. Why is that so hard for everybody to understand?

In the real world trades are evaluated based on what happens in the NHL, not what happens at the NCAA level or Major Junior or anywhere else. In the real world, winning the cup takes precident over winning "best prospect pool" as voted by HF boards.

If you want to argue that the Kings won this trade based on what Oleg Tverdovsky has contributed vs. Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger, that would be more palatable than discussing what we're discussing right now.

 

[nags]

For the record, I'm not saying he sucks. LA will very likely win the trade in a few years. But to call it a lock is stupid. Prospects bust and fail to live up to expectations all the time. And Johnson would have done nothing on the team this year and one could even argue that the Canes have no idea how to develop a defenseman.

What do you mean they don't know how to develop defencemen. Kevin McCarthy is one of the smartest defensive coaches in the world. Maybe McCarthy saw something in Johnson that he didn't like.

Like constantly pinching at inapproprate times, not really knowing how to throw a legal hit (arms up every single time).

And I watched the UND game and I can assure you he wasn't the best player on the ice unless all your looking for is a guy who is out of control and really doesn't know how to read a rush.

 

[Boston]

Why would I need help? If you still deny that Thornton wasn't a bad trade considering what he has given in terms of play to San Jose, then you'd have to be blind. There is nothing of the sort here. He has given the Kings nothing in terms of yield to this point. Nothing at all. Why is that so hard for everybody to understand?

In the real world trades are evaluated based on what happens in the NHL, not what happens at the NCAA level or Major Junior or anywhere else. In the real world, winning the cup takes precident over winning "best prospect pool" as voted by HF boards.

If you want to argue that the Kings won this trade based on what Oleg Tverdovsky has contributed vs. Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger, that would be more palatable than discussing what we're discussing right now.

**** yield. If you want to talk about yield, JJ is 4 years younger. That is more than 1years worth of yield by the time he is a UFA compared to Glease. You are just giving yourself reasons to believe you guys didn't get owned in this trade. You guys may be slightly better this season with Gleason, but you guys better have enjoyed that season, because from here on out it isn't close.

 

[SpaceGhost79]

If you want to argue that the Kings won this trade based on what Oleg Tverdovsky has contributed vs. Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger, that would be more palatable than discussing what we're discussing right now.

The Legend of JMFJ thread on Lets Go Kings >>>> Gleason + Belanger Come on, admit it!

 

[Legionnaire]

Hey, at least they won the Cup last year, that assuages the pain from losing Johnson.

Good point.

Stanley Cup wins.

Canes: 1
Kings: 0
Canucks : 0

 

[nuckfan insk]

Good point.

Stanley Cup wins.

Canes: 1
Kings: 0
Canucks : 0

why is the canucks listed there ?

 

[Legionnaire]

27 posts into your HF Boards "career" and this is what you come up with? A stupidly uneducated Rob Blake crackback?

Not trying to turn this into a Rob Blake thread, but if JJ learns Blake's work habits, he'll be well on his way toward being a sensational pro. I think Blake's well past his prime, but he still works as hard as anyone on the team and is still a great leader and will probably captain the team (again) next year.

I think the fact that the kid is committed to getting his degree while he makes millions of dollars before he can even LEGALLY PURCHASE BEER speaks volumes to his commitment.

As for the trade, why is even being rehashed? Deals like these can't be evaluated for a few years so why bother?

I actually agree with the guy. Blake is the last guy that I want "teaching" him the game(Crawford would be number two). Off ice work ethic? Sure. But Blake is still making the exact same stupid mistakes he's made since he stepped on the ice for the Kings the first year.

 

[Legionnaire]

why is the canucks listed there ?

Because the guy that TU quoted was a Nucks fan.

 

[jfont]

This is the ever so common post Getting Owned In a Trade Disease. I too have convinced myself that the Bruins didn't lose out so badly on the Thornton trade. You, like me, need help.

well hold on there...

Thornton, unlike JJ, is greatly contributing to the Sharks...

lets look at this in a couple of years.

 

[Zad]

How in the hell did this thread become a rehash of the trade? Mods might as well give it a new title because this has little to do with the signing & JMFJ's future here.

 

[kingpest19]

"Losing" the deal is a very subjective term. The Kings shedded salary (*correction: cap space*), added a phenomal defensive prospect, and traded two players who were going to do absolutely nothing for the Kings this year that any two younger players in the organization couldn't do. The trade opened up room for guys like O'Sullivan, Zeiler, Tukonen, Pushkarev, and even now Piskula and Johnson. As far as it goes from a Kings' perspective, you'll find very few complaints from any Kings' fans who actually care about rebuilding the team the right way and are willing to be patient for youth to mature.

IMO, there's no way you can look at the deal right now and say, "the Kings lost this trade."

Now, from the Canes perspective, they needed help because they didn't have enough organizational depth to fill their holes. This is something that happens with every organization, but if you need to make a trade to fill a hole, chances are, you're going to have to give more than you're going to get. When dealing from a position of need, the other team involved almost always has the upper hand. Lombardi saw the situation as a chance to take advantage of a team in need and did so.

The Canes received a solid young defenseman and a good spare part, there's no arguing that. But I don't understand how people can sit here and say so certainly that the Canes won this deal.

The Canes have in no way won this deal yet. The ONLY way the Canes "win" this deal is if Johnson busts and Gleason continues to be a solid player for them. Until/if Johnson busts, the Kings have won the trade.

Therefore, more things have to fall into place for Carolina to "win" this deal than for the Kings to.

That's my take on it at least.

I'll ask the same question I've asked a couple times on here: do you think that Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger were the best two players Rutherford could've gotten for Johnson?

I never said the Kings lost the deal. Just pointing out that the Canes didnt lose it either for the fact that they got 2 roster players for a kid who was in all likelihood never going to play for them. Losing Belanger hurt a little bit but losing Gleason hurt alot more. Losing a YOUNG defenseman like Gleason who had the size to play physical meant having to watch Dallman and Weaver get out played and out hit because of the stature. Fact is the Kings have no younger defenseman in the system that could have effectively replaced Gleason this year.

Trading Belanger didnt open up a spot for anyone considering they signed McCauley. Zeiler, Tuks, Push are all wings which is a definite weak spot int he system. The only one that may have benefitted is O'Sullivan. The only reason he moved back to center is injuries to McCauley, Armstrong and Kopitar. Moving Gleason meant watching Dallman, Weaver and Harrold play more. Harrold is younger guy like Gleason but plays the same type of game that Vis does. Now with Norstrom gone and not knowing who the Kings could end up with losing Gleason isnt good. Losing a 24 yr old who at the end of this year will have 4 pro seasons under his belt isnt good for the system any way you look at it.


Neither team lost this trade. Both got what they wanted or needed. When the trade helps both teams out neither team loses.

 

[Evilo]

Why would I need help? If you still deny that Thornton wasn't a bad trade considering what he has given in terms of play to San Jose, then you'd have to be blind. There is nothing of the sort here. He has given the Kings nothing in terms of yield to this point. Nothing at all. Why is that so hard for everybody to understand?

In the real world trades are evaluated based on what happens in the NHL, not what happens at the NCAA level or Major Junior or anywhere else. In the real world, winning the cup takes precident over winning "best prospect pool" as voted by HF boards.

If you want to argue that the Kings won this trade based on what Oleg Tverdovsky has contributed vs. Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger, that would be more palatable than discussing what we're discussing right now.

I give it 6 months of next year's season before the deal is classified as an outrageous steal.

Basically what everyone saw at the time of the deal.

 

[bleedgreen]

I'll ask the same question I've asked a couple times on here: do you think that Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger were the best two players Rutherford could've gotten for Johnson?

ive said it bunch of times, of course they couldnt have. if someone offered more they wouldve taken it. the first rumours that he was on the block was months before he got traded. everyone in the league had multiple cracks at getting the guy. ive never really been in rutherfords corner in general as a canes fan, but the guy knew he had something good and i think he held out as long as he could. thats the problem of course, coming off a cup run where they felt they needed to keep it all going to maximize their success - they were badly short d and they hunted everywhere for it. people say they couldve gotten more, but they offered him to pit for j staal before pit even drafted him (not knowing he would have such a great year - at the time it was assumed he was going back to junior)....pens thought about it but said no. they offered him to the rangers for marc staal...and he was drafted a bunch of spots lower and is generally not considered as high a prospect as jj....and the rangers said no too. hell....what do you do then? they tried to turn him into an equal prospect...no go. after that i think they made a list of guys they liked and made sure they got one. the canes always liked gleason and wanted to draft him....he isnt equal return but like im sayin - they werent ever going to get equal return on him. thats the one angle i as a canes fan respect the deal. he was a headache to them, they needed d, he wasnt willing to be it, they at least got someone they were after anyway and really liked. people might say it wasnt good enough but thats exactly how they got j williams. they always wanted him and traded away their best d at the time (markov) to get him. its easy to say that in xbox values jj will always be better but gleason while not as talented has been a great fit....they picked a good guy to get back. he may never live up to jj, but he is exactly what they wanted and needed. people around here will never understand that, its just assumed the top prospect wouldve been a better fit but it just isnt always true. people will say if you had to get rid of him you shoulda done better, they tried. no one stepped up and at least they got someone they really like.

 

[Evilo]

I'm sure if Carolina had offered JJ for Orpik+Christensen, the deal would have been done (Crosby-Johnson relationship, etc...).
I'd take Orpik+Christensen over Gleason right now, not to take anything away from him.

 

[bleedgreen]

I'm sure if Carolina had offered JJ for Orpik+Christensen, the deal would have been done (Crosby-Johnson relationship, etc...).
I'd take Orpik+Christensen over Gleason right now, not to take anything away from him.

umm....orpik wouldnt be a great fit in carolina. christensen is pretty good, i guess. of course your forgetting something....this was never offered. you cant say the canes were wrong because so and so wouldve been better....so and so was never offered. everyone keeps saying stuff like..."we wouldve offered this"...well shoot...too bad you werent runnin the team then. carolina would never ask for orpik, and im sure that the canes are more than content with gleason over orpik regardless the history. i wouldnt trade gleason for orpik period, and i cant stand adding players to make it seem like a better deal. they wanted the guys they wanted and they always wanted gleason.

 

[norrisnick]

Rob Blake is Johnson's childhood hero, it may be one of the reasons why he decided to go to L.A as soon as this season

so it isn't, by any means, a sign that he would have played for Carolina.

btw, great news !

He is?

I've always been under the impression that it was Vladimir Konstantinov.

 

[zeppelin97]

I actually agree with the guy. Blake is the last guy that I want "teaching" him the game(Crawford would be number two). Off ice work ethic? Sure. But Blake is still making the exact same stupid mistakes he's made since he stepped on the ice for the Kings the first year.

I think Chelios would be a good mentor for Jack, in whatever capacity possible. When the hell is he retiring, btw?

 

[Levizk]

I think Chelios would be a good mentor for Jack, in whatever capacity possible. When the hell is he retiring, btw?

After his grandson dies from old age and can't come to the rink to see him play anymore.

 

[Evilo]

umm....orpik wouldnt be a great fit in carolina. christensen is pretty good, i guess. of course your forgetting something....this was never offered. you cant say the canes were wrong because so and so wouldve been better....so and so was never offered. everyone keeps saying stuff like..."we wouldve offered this"...well shoot...too bad you werent runnin the team then. carolina would never ask for orpik, and im sure that the canes are more than content with gleason over orpik regardless the history. i wouldnt trade gleason for orpik period, and i cant stand adding players to make it seem like a better deal. they wanted the guys they wanted and they always wanted gleason.

But isn't Rutherford's job ALSO to propose trades?
The Orpik name was just thrown as an example, but it just tells you how it was.
Yes you'd take Gleason over Orpik, but adding Christensen instead of Belanger is what makes the deal much more interesting.

I think JR put Johnson on the block by trying for two or three high end prospects (Staal brothers) before settling for the LA package.
I'm sure he would have been able to get more by trying to get a package deal involving a forward and a Dman (just like LA) but in better quality. Which is why I brought up Christensen.

I think JR (that I respect a lot BTW) just hit the panick button a little early here and didn't look at all his options (obviously, that's just me supposing, I have zero proof of this).

 

[What the Faulk]

But they traded Johnson after they won the cup and the Canes aren't winning one this year.

Oh, really? Have you looked through time and already found out who's going to win? Cause last I checked, the Oilers were 1 game short as a #8 seed. The Canes could be looking at a #7, #6 or even #3 seed.

The Kings win this trade already simply becasue Gleason is not putting fans in the seats in Carolina. JJ on the other hand will be the recipiant of 16,000 rowdy Kings fans screaming KILL JACK, KILL. Jack Johnson will be on sports center putting Tim Gleason through the glass and kicking the tar out of Eric Belanger.

This is the most ridiculous post in the thread.

1. Carolina is out drawing LA right now.
2. Belanger hasn't been on the team for a month and a half.
3. LA doesn't even play Carolina next year.
4. Sportscenter? Come on. When the hell is hockey ever on Sportscenter?

If you want to judge a trade by how many fans the players put in seats, then you're an idiot.

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Oh, really? Have you looked through time and already found out who's going to win? Cause last I checked, the Oilers were 1 game short as a #8 seed. The Canes could be looking at a #7, #6 or even #3 seed.

Okay you need to calm down and realise that the oilers run last year was the first time the 8th seed made the finals EVER. Also carolina are FAR from favorites this year and even if you finish 6th, looking at past results its still less than 5% chance of winning the cup.

 

[What the Faulk]

Calm down? Uh, I'm trying to defend my team when someone says they're already not going to win.

I could go all Denny Green tirade, but I won't.

 

[hiptanaka]

Okay you need to calm down and realise that the oilers run last year was the first time the 8th seed made the finals EVER. Also carolina are FAR from favorites this year and even if you finish 6th, looking at past results its still less than 5% chance of winning the cup.

i dont think so. The Minnesota North Stars made it to the 1991 Stanley Cup Finals as the #8 seed (or lowest-ranked playoff team). what happened in the '91 finals, though, was another story

 

[Dark4ng3l]

Well yeah we know they arent going to win, just like montreal will not win the cup this year even if they make the playoffs.

 

[LAKings88]

Oh, really? Have you looked through time and already found out who's going to win? Cause last I checked, the Oilers were 1 game short as a #8 seed. The Canes could be looking at a #7, #6 or even #3 seed.



This is the most ridiculous post in the thread.

1. Carolina is out drawing LA right now.
2. Belanger hasn't been on the team for a month and a half.
3. LA doesn't even play Carolina next year.
4. Sportscenter? Come on. When the hell is hockey ever on Sportscenter?

If you want to judge a trade by how many fans the players put in seats, then you're an idiot.

i do think you have a valid arguement, but there is a need in LA to have some star content in your line-up. we have to many teams and distractions that compete against hockey in california. die hard fans go no matter what but to gain the interest of casual fans the kings need players that are marketable and entertaining. winning consistently would also help, undoubtedly. hopefully johnson can bring a good show for many long sufferring kings fans bucks.