Jack Johnson leaves Michigan and is a KING!!!

[Vagrant]

We could go on all day about doing "ifs" but i think the GM miscalculated and expected the Canes to still be cup contenders and went for immediate help instead of getting rewarded long term but the team has underarchieved and is fighting for a playoff spot so the plan could backfire.

The season isn't over. Carolina is 4 points behind Atlanta with a game in hand and they play them twice more before the year is done. They're 2 points behind Tampa Bay and play them twice more as well. If Carolina can stay hot then they control their own destiny if they want into the 3rd playoff seed.

 

[FlameofTheWest]

What dont get is if this trade was made for the short term then it was piss poor cause the canes are still struggling to even make the playoffs. If Carolina added Gleason and say were in solid playoff position then fine, great deal to defend the cup. But to trade a potential franchise Dman and still barely scrap to get in the playoffs seems like a waste. I remember Matt Carle joining San Jose last season after his college season and performing well into the playoffs. So your telling me that you dont think its possible for Jack to do that same thing for Carolina this year? Sure prospects are unproven but when u like a guy to enough to take no.3 you have to be willing ride it out a little longer and not panic. So to say a college kid cant jump in and help in a playoff run isnt always the case. I bet canes fans would take Carle coming out of college last year over Gleason this year. So why not JJ?

 

[haelwho]

Fact is Canes didnt lose this deal. Johnson wouldnt have been in the lineup for them this year anyways. Gleason and Belanger stepped right into the lineup. Getting 2 players who can step right into the lineup for a prospect who may or may not reach potential is losing a trade now? The Canes GM did what he had to do. Het got return on a player who seemingly wasnt going to sign with his team and those 2 players helped. JJ is the one that has to live up to potential , not Gleason or Belanger.

"Losing" the deal is a very subjective term. The Kings shedded salary (*correction: cap space*), added a phenomal defensive prospect, and traded two players who were going to do absolutely nothing for the Kings this year that any two younger players in the organization couldn't do. The trade opened up room for guys like O'Sullivan, Zeiler, Tukonen, Pushkarev, and even now Piskula and Johnson. As far as it goes from a Kings' perspective, you'll find very few complaints from any Kings' fans who actually care about rebuilding the team the right way and are willing to be patient for youth to mature.

IMO, there's no way you can look at the deal right now and say, "the Kings lost this trade."

Now, from the Canes perspective, they needed help because they didn't have enough organizational depth to fill their holes. This is something that happens with every organization, but if you need to make a trade to fill a hole, chances are, you're going to have to give more than you're going to get. When dealing from a position of need, the other team involved almost always has the upper hand. Lombardi saw the situation as a chance to take advantage of a team in need and did so.

The Canes received a solid young defenseman and a good spare part, there's no arguing that. But I don't understand how people can sit here and say so certainly that the Canes won this deal.

The Canes have in no way won this deal yet. The ONLY way the Canes "win" this deal is if Johnson busts and Gleason continues to be a solid player for them. Until/if Johnson busts, the Kings have won the trade.

Therefore, more things have to fall into place for Carolina to "win" this deal than for the Kings to.

That's my take on it at least.

I'll ask the same question I've asked a couple times on here: do you think that Tim Gleason and Eric Belanger were the best two players Rutherford could've gotten for Johnson?

 

[What the Faulk]

Wait, the Kings shredded salary? You do realize they took Oleg Tverdovsky and his 2.5 million in the deal, right? He's signed through next year.

 

[haelwho]

Wait, the Kings shredded salary? You do realize they took Oleg Tverdovsky and his 2.5 million in the deal, right? He's signed through next year.

**Cap space

My mistake.

 

[LAKings88]

as a kings fan i think gleason is a YOUNG dman who is going to be solid in every aspect even if unspectacular. i wish we could have kept him and unloaded somebody else in his place...that being said, the potential yield of jj was a risk worth taking for a team that was in need of a rebuild. a risk even worth taking on tverdovsky's salary for. carolina got a good player and he has performed his part well.
....but it's a trade that was a no brainer for LA...and i do sincerely hope the gamble pays off, i think the odds are in LA's favor with jj's raw ability. you can teach techniques but ability is a gift. like so many have already said, time will tell and yes it probably wont happen all at once. let the kid develope.

 

[Live in the Now]

So whats the kings top 6 looking like next year? Does anyone think JJ will be full time in the NHL next season?

How about AHL playoffs this year? Is Manchester in the chase?

If it were up to me (and it isn't), my top 6 would be Blake, Visnovsky, UFA addition, JJ, Petiot (or Miller on a cheap one year) and Heward. Maybe re-sign Dallman for 7th defenseman duty, and Weaver for Manchester. If Miller re-signs and injury occurs quick to any player, Petiot gets the first callup.

I think Heward's going to get re-signed regardless of what happens with the other guys.

And Manchester's in the chase, so JJ's probably going to head down there for the playoffs. The only way that Johnson's not with the club fulltime next year is if he gets hurt.

 

[Michigan Wolverine]

oh please, ask Kings fans for their opinion of "Mr. Professional" Rob Blake... methinks you be the uneducated one, oh holy oracle of b.s.

Kings fan here. You're wrong. How's that?

Want more? Dean Lombardi has said specifically that Blake can show the kids how to prepare to be players in the NHL.

I'm not the biggest Rob Blake fan in the world, but that doesn't mean that I don't recognize his ability to teach young players a lot about being a pro.

As for the larger argument, the Canes made a move that addressed their immediate needs at the time. They paid a steep price, but given the time they made the deal (right before the season), they probably didn't have a lot of comparable options. I'd further argue that Rutherford probably recognized that the Canes damaged their relationship with Johnson, making it a bit less painful to move him. (Let's not resurrect that old discussion.)

It's simplistic to say the Kings "won" the trade simply by getting the player with the most potential out of it. The needs of each team differed greatly, and the success of a trade depends on those needs being filled.

That having been said, the Kings did very well for their plans. Johnson would ideally see some seasoning in the AHL to correct his bad habits, but he appears to be mentally tough enough to go through his growing pains on the NHL stage. Pick on his lapses, but this kid is an amazing prospect.

 

[Jori]

What dont get is if this trade was made for the short term then it was piss poor cause the canes are still struggling to even make the playoffs. If Carolina added Gleason and say were in solid playoff position then fine, great deal to defend the cup. But to trade a potential franchise Dman and still barely scrap to get in the playoffs seems like a waste. I remember Matt Carle joining San Jose last season after his college season and performing well into the playoffs. So your telling me that you dont think its possible for Jack to do that same thing for Carolina this year? Sure prospects are unproven but when u like a guy to enough to take no.3 you have to be willing ride it out a little longer and not panic. So to say a college kid cant jump in and help in a playoff run isnt always the case. I bet canes fans would take Carle coming out of college last year over Gleason this year. So why not JJ?

The Carle/JJ comparison is not a good one. Carle was a more polished player coming out of DU. JJ is immensely talented, but he is still rough around the edges.

 

[What the Faulk]

**Cap space

My mistake.

The Cap space was even. Belanger + Gleason made 2.5 million. The thing is, Belanger and Gleason are soley responsible for AT LEAST a win each (Gleason probably several more). In a tight race like the East is, that's very valuable.

Tverdovsky likely would have rode the bench or would have been sent to Albany if he were here. That means the Canes would have effectively had 2.5 million less in cap space and would have needed to add a defenseman and 3rd line center. And that 2.5 would have carried over to the next year preventing them from re-signing Whitney and/or Walker.

This deal can sort of be taken like a playoff rental deal, minus the rental part.

 

[FlameofTheWest]

I really think Jack was bored somewhat at U of M and I think that somewhat contributed to some of his play at times. I think he was so much better than most of the guys he was facing and he knew it. I think he will raise his level and play a lot smarter at the next level.

 

[Live in the Now]

Oleg got sent down earlier this year, and will not be back. That's the aforementioned "cap space".

Seriously, nobody has even considered him an option to be on the team next season.

 

[What the Faulk]

I think I may be misunderstanding. Players in the minors making 2.5 million don't count towards the cap?

 

[Michigan Wolverine]

I think I may be misunderstanding. Players in the minors making 2.5 million don't count towards the cap?

Nope.

 

[Live in the Now]

Nope, but the salary that they are paid before they get sent down does. So Oleg's whatever he got before going down counted, but nothing since. If he stays in Manchester until his contract is up, his salary won't count against the cap at all next season.

Same thing can happen with Cloutier if necessary.

 

[Fit Pita]

Same thing can happen with Cloutier if necessary.

What do you mean if??? Its freakin essential!

 

[Subzero]

I hope Jon Rx will correct me if i'm wrong because he always has good insight on these things, but didn't jj pull the "lindros will not play in quebec" card? I think I remeber hearing that the canes wanted to pull jj up last year and he would get a chance at a ring, but he said no.

 

[Live in the Now]

I don't want to make assumptions.

 

[Johnny Utah]

As a Kings fan, I was sad to lose Gleason, I love the way he played. Belanger was an UFA, so that really wasn't a loss, he can resign with the Kings at the end of the season, doubtful though with McCauley coming back and the way Lundmark has played.

Lombardi didn't want to part with Gleason, but the upside of Johnson is so great, especially with the Kings, who without Harrold, have really no legit NHL blueliners on there prospect list who can come in and make an immediate impact.

Johnson was taken #3 in one of the deepest drafts in the last 5-6 years, I really don't see him busting as some people are speculating. Especially with the comments from teammates, coaches, and scouts....Sounds like the guy is gonna make an impact.

As for the Kings D for next year.

Rob Blake, Visnovsky, J. Johnson and probably Miller (if he resigns), Peter Harrold, and the 6th will probably depend on if Miller resigns. Kings want to make a run at 27-28 year old guy, probably Stuart of Hannon, or they could give Petiot a shot depending on if Miller signs and for how much....

 

[DickArmy*]

Hey, at least they won the Cup last year, that assuages the pain from losing Johnson.

But they traded Johnson after they won the cup and the Canes aren't winning one this year.

 

[DickArmy*]

If it were up to me (and it isn't), my top 6 would be Blake, Visnovsky, UFA addition, JJ, Petiot (or Miller on a cheap one year) and Heward. Maybe re-sign Dallman for 7th defenseman duty, and Weaver for Manchester. If Miller re-signs and injury occurs quick to any player, Petiot gets the first callup.

I think Heward's going to get re-signed regardless of what happens with the other guys.

And Manchester's in the chase, so JJ's probably going to head down there for the playoffs. The only way that Johnson's not with the club fulltime next year is if he gets hurt.

I think the Kings release Dallman or send him to Manchester, he's horrid. My bet is the D core will look something like

Blake-Johnson
Vishnovsky-Stuart
Piskula-Miller
Harrold/Weaver as 7th

or

Blake - Johnson
Vishnovsky - Heward
Hannan - Piskula
Harrold/Weaver as 7th

 

[Boston]

Making ungodly turnovers and taking ungodly pinches and penalties is what I think he was speaking about. Andy Delmore scored ungodly amounts of goals too.

This is the ever so common post Getting Owned In a Trade Disease. I too have convinced myself that the Bruins didn't lose out so badly on the Thornton trade. You, like me, need help.

 

[DEVILS ALL THE WAY*]

Let's summerize this thread...

Canes fans say:

We don't care about loosing a blue chip prospect that could've been the back bone at defense for our organisation for the next 15 years or so in return for Gleason, that is at best a top 4 D-men in the NHL and some other guy that got traded a few months after the J.J. deal.

We're happy with the trade and Gleason is helping us RIGHT NOW... even thought we're 2 points away from the 11th place in the EAST.

Kings fans... and the rest of hockey fans around the world say:

This trade was a steal for the Kings, that are rebuilding and doing a FANTASTIC job b.t.w. Ask the Kings fans if they miss Gleason today !!!


I just don't get the hole "prospects can be busts" or "he didn't prove anything in the NHL, so he's worth nothing for us RIGHT NOW". The only kid that had so much hype around him and busted is Alexandre Daigle. He had the pressure to carry a expantion franchise on his back at the age of 18. J.J. won't have that pressure at all. He's going to get a sniff of NHL hockey with a team that isn't playing for anything else then self respect, so even if he makes a couple of mistakes per game (wich is expected by the coaching staff an GM) that playing time will just give him more confidence for next years training camp.

I don't mean to rub it in, but you guy's traded Pronger (drafted 2nd overall) and I think that trading away J.J. (drafted 2nd overall) will come back and bite you guy's in the ass... ESPECALLY IF CAROLINA DOESN'T MAKE THE PLAYOFFS

JUST MY OPINION (and i'm glad he's in the western conference)

 

[no name]

The funny thing is 3 months ago Carniac preached that JJ may not even sign with the Kings. Now he is saying he may not be a good player. Next year he will be saying he may not be an all star.

The Kings win this trade already simply becasue Gleason is not putting fans in the seats in Carolina. JJ on the other hand will be the recipiant of 16,000 rowdy Kings fans screaming KILL JACK, KILL. Jack Johnson will be on sports center putting Tim Gleason through the glass and kicking the tar out of Eric Belanger.

Cut and paste this post and stick it on the HF homepage. See you next year.

 

[Vagrant]

Let's summerize this thread...

Canes fans say:

We don't care about loosing a blue chip prospect that could've been the back bone at defense for our organisation for the next 15 years or so in return for Gleason, that is at best a top 4 D-men in the NHL and some other guy that got traded a few months after the J.J. deal.

We're happy with the trade and Gleason is helping us RIGHT NOW... even thought we're 2 points away from the 11th place in the EAST.

4 points from 3rd place in the East as well. But try not to let facts get in the way of your tirade.

No Canes fans are saying that we don't care about losing a blue chip prospect because we have Tim Gleason now. We're only trying to say that the people claming ultimate victory in this trade are premature because we don't know what Johnson is going to bring to the table at the professional level. Everything else you said is pointless due to that one misconception.

The funny thing is 3 months ago Carniac preached that JJ may not even sign with the Kings.

Could you show me that post? I don't remember saying that at all. I kind of figured he would sign with the Kings. I just knew he didn't want to play for Carolina.

And he may not be a good player. Me saying that is the same as you saying he'll be a good player. What's the rub?