Player Discussion Jack Eichel - Switching from #15 to #9

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Snippit

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Dec 5, 2012
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Kane, for all his flaws... is also a driver of Eichel's ES improvement.... so while he may regain his PP production, he'll likely lose a chunk of that ES production

His pace is a massive disappointment right now... 10 million :shakehead

Other way around
 

Kyndig

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Jan 3, 2012
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Other way around

Exactly. Kane has directly contributed to 5 of Eichel's 19 ES points in the form of goals since we all know Kane can't pass the rest of the points from Kane is all secondary leach assists from Eichel/Pommers one timers and Eichel doing all the work on Kane's lone primary.

To say someone scoring 5 goals ES with Eichel 31 games in cannot be replaced is ridiculous. Pominville has just as many ES goals with Eichel while playing 26% less time with Eichel (128 minutes ES) .
 

Heraldic

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Dec 12, 2013
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There is no player who has been a supreme leader at the age of 20 without a really strong leadership group to support and mentor.

Having no captain is the exactly right move at this point. Eichel isn't there yet, and it remains to seen will he get there without that support group. ROR and other vets have simply been failures there. Handing the C to a guy like ROR, who is who is, would have been a fatal sign. "Hey, despite the fact that you have been in the league for almost a decade, and have failed to be a leader in both organisation, we hand you the C, because we simply lack better candidates". Yeah, that makes sense...

Kane, for all his flaws... is also a driver of Eichel's ES improvement.... so while he may regain his PP production, he'll likely lose a chunk of that ES production

His pace is a massive disappointment right now... 10 million :shakehead

Absolutely no-one who has watched the games could say anything like that. There isn't probably clearer consensus on this board on any other topic than the fact that Kane/Eichel don't work optimally (despite the fact they're producing).

But what you say doesn't make sense from the statistical pov neither.

Eichel's w/o stats simply show, that Eichel's line has been more productive without Kane and even under worse deployment.

Eichel w/ Kane
GF 2,62, OZ% 64,41

Eichel w/o Kane
GF 2,96, OZ% 42,59

Kane w/o Eichel
GF 0.67, OZ% 46.67 (yeah, it's definitely Kane inflating and not the other way around...)

Sure, the sample size is not 50/50, it's about 1/4. It's still telling enough given the difference.

I absolutely love how the same players, who are direct reasons for Larsson's/Reinhart's failures become the reasons why Eichel produce. If there has ever been an agenda....

I think the contract was negotiated under the most idiotic premise in negotiating history

This post is comical. I mean, I used a lot of energy and time to repeatedly tell you the premises of the negotiations... And still you don't get those...

***

I think we will keep seeing this narrative for a long time. It's the only "logical" way to explain themselves how they were so out-of lunch regarding the contract negotiations. And it doesn't seem to matter how many times you explain it, it's hard to kill. Just like the "draft for need narrative". It's because it is agenda driven.
 
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Rasmus CacOlainen

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Sep 24, 2015
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I still think the contract is just fine if cap is going up to 80 mil next season. By the time his contract is up and potential Seattle expansion Jack is probably the least of our cap worries. Botts had to take a calculated risk and not tisk having to pay him even more to lock him up for 8 more years. If we are paying the Kyle Okposos of the world 6 mil the face of the franchise will be worth 10mil on 8 year contract as the cap is only going up from here.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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There is no player who has been a supreme leader at the age of 20 without a really strong leadership group to support and mentor.

Having no captain is the exactly right move at this point. Eichel isn't there yet, and it remains to seen will he get there without that support group. ROR and other vets have simply been failures there. Handing the C to a guy like ROR, who is who is, would have been a fatal sign. "Hey, despite the fact that you have been in the league for almost a decade, and have failed to be a leader in both organisation, we hand you the C, because we simply lack better candidates". Yeah, that makes sense...

So failing as a leader is defined in wins?



Absolutely no-one who has watched the games could say anything like that. There isn't probably clearer consensus on this board on any other topic than the fact that Kane/Eichel don't work optimally (despite the fact they're producing).

You're confusing the topics. Kane/Eichel don't work optimally together. That's very true. But they do produce ES offense together. It's imply that the other 90% of the game, is garbage.

But what you say doesn't make sense from the statistical pov neither.

Eichel's w/o stats simply show, that Eichel's line has been more productive without Kane and even under worse deployment.

Eichel w/ Kane
GF 2,62, OZ% 64,41

Eichel w/o Kane
GF 2,96, OZ% 42,59

Kane w/o Eichel
GF 0.67, OZ% 46.67 (yeah, it's definitely Kane inflating and not the other way around...)

Sure, the sample size is not 50/50, it's about 1/4. It's still telling enough given the difference.

Man... i love how how you pin ball on sample size.... lol

Maybe... include last season for a better sample size? Uh oh... your narrative might break...

But hey... sure, taking away the 2nd highest ES Goal Scorer in the NHL over the last 12 months... won't affect Eichel... because he's a superstar, on a 63 point pace....

I absolutely love how the same players, who are direct reasons for Larsson's/Reinhart's failures become the reasons why Eichel produce. If there has ever been an agenda....

I don't know what you're referencing



This post is comical. I mean, I used a lot of energy and time to repeatedly tell you the premises of the negotiations... And still you don't get those...

You wasted a lot of energy regurgitating an argument that I fully understood, and completely disagreed with. I said numerous times that I was fully aware and prepared for the likely outcome, and then I argued with fact as to why it was a stupid way to go. Not that it wasn't possible and not that it wasn't likely... but that it was dumb. And here we are... In a 3rd season, where Eichel will score at around a Pastrnak level at best, while we will pay him 33% more.

We would've been far better off letting him play the season, and play FOR 80 million. Instead we get to watch him coast... The risk that Eichel would perform to a level that would've coast us MORE than 80 million, wasn't a risk at all.... like I said... that would've been a BENEFIT. I would LOVE for Eichel to be playing his ass off for a mega contract... I'd give that player 12 million.

It was a strategic failure. A simple minded approach. And it has backfired. We will never get the young star playing AND developing in a contract season. We flushed that development and opportunity down the toilet for what? Potentially saving 1 or 2 million per year in cap space?

Moronic.



I think we will keep seeing this narrative for a long time. It's the only "logical" way to explain themselves how they were so out-of lunch regarding the contract negotiations. And it doesn't seem to matter how many times you explain it, it's hard to kill. Just like the "draft for need narrative". It's because it is agenda driven.

There was nothing out to lunch about understanding the entirety and simplicity of the argument for the contract Eichel got, and simply disagreeing with it.

You are reframing the past. I never argued that Eichel WOULDN'T get 10 per. I argued that it was dumb to do that. And here we are.

And dont think its forgotten... how you hedged every possible position with nonsense like:
"less than 8.5 is unlikely, 8.5-9.5 is possible, 9.5 to 10.5 most likely, greater than 10.5 possible"

My memory is better than yours
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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The double digit cap hit list is literally Ross/Hart winners, multiple-time champions and Eichel.

I'm not going to re-litigate this beyond saying the deals McDavid, Draisaitl or Jack got are not based on what they've done but what they will be. All have cap hits at, above or well above far more accomplished players.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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The double digit cap hit list is literally Ross/Hart winners, multiple-time champions and Eichel.

But... but... McDavid changed the salary structure of the entire NHL... oh wait... he changed it for Jack Eichel only, and the rest of the league ignored it.

Boston did it right. Let the player play out his ELC. Just because McDavid became the first player ever to get a mega contract after 2 seasons, doesn't mean Eichel should

6 years / 6.6 per

Eichel hasnt been made to earn anything... he was drafted, and immediately handed a top 6 role. For all of Barry Melrose flaws... he handled Stamkos the right way... and it paid off for the Lightning. Started on the 4th line, played the first few months getting 10-12 minutes a game.

In Stammer's 2nd season, he exploded for 90+ points. He was pushed to in his rookie year to earn his ice time, play the system, etc. And did Tampa panic, and annoint him a record contract after his 2nd season? Nope... they went out a made him do it AGAIN. And with another 90 point season, he entered RFA and got a good contract.... one that was ONLY 5 years and took him to UFA. Was Tampa worried about losing him too soon? Nope... because they were focused on building a winner, not annointing a single player. And they bet on themselves... that a winner, would keep Stamkos in town... and it did.

Be like Tampa
... too late.
 
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Sabre Dance

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$10 million cap hit was the high, $8 million was the low. Anything below that isn't realistic.

My biggest disappointment with the contract is that it didn't come with the captaincy. If there are people in Sabres management that don't see Eichel as a captain then why hand him that money right now. Everything they thought was a problem in the locker room and on the ice before the deal was likely made worse after.

There was a reason Eichel wasn't named captain, that should have been enough for Botterill and Pegula to hold off on the $10 million cap hit.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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$10 million cap hit was the high, $8 million was the low. Anything below that isn't realistic.

Jacks agent: let’s begin negotiating... Eichel and Draisaitl just...
Botts: let me stop you right there... just because those guys jumped off a bridge, doesn’t mean we intend to.
Jacks agent: well then there’s nothing to discuss
Botts: ok, happy to talk again next year

This idea that we HAD to follow the market Edmonton created was always weak. That was just the easy path for a rookie GM.
 

Icicle

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Oct 16, 2005
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I wonder how many of you arguing against Eichels contract also patted Reiger on the back for letting Drury and Briere go after nickel and dining then and refusing to offer them a contract prior to the end of their final season.

Briere only just admitted he would’ve signed for less in a heartbeat as early as mid season..
 

Jim Bob

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Feb 27, 2002
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I wonder how many of you arguing against Eichels contract also patted Reiger on the back for letting Drury and Briere go after nickel and dining then and refusing to offer them a contract prior to the end of their final season.

Briere only just admitted he would’ve signed for less in a heartbeat as early as mid season..

People aren't arguing against Eichel's contract as much as we were arguing that the Sabres should wait to extend him as some people hadn't seen enough from him to see him being worth $10M per year moving forward.

And 31 games into this season, he still isn't producing like an elite, generational talent that deserves $10M per year moving forward.

Eichel is t-63rd in the NHL in Pt/GP this season among players with at least 20 GP.

Is that the kind of production that you would expect from a $10M per year guy?
 

Jame

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I wonder how many of you arguing against Eichels contract also patted Reiger on the back for letting Drury and Briere go after nickel and dining then and refusing to offer them a contract prior to the end of their final season.

Briere only just admitted he would’ve signed for less in a heartbeat as early as mid season..

:facepalm:

RFA vs UFA
 

Sabre Dance

Make Hockey Fun Again
Jul 27, 2006
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Jacks agent: let’s begin negotiating... Eichel and Draisaitl just...
Botts: let me stop you right there... just because those guys jumped off a bridge, doesn’t mean we intend to.
Jacks agent: well then there’s nothing to discuss
Botts: ok, happy to talk again next year

This idea that we HAD to follow the market Edmonton created was always weak. That was just the easy path for a rookie GM.
I think the Aaron Ekblad contract set the market for superstar top picks. Jack was not getting anything under $7.5 million cap hit. Edmonton set the market high. No one is getting more than McDavid.
 

sabrebuild

Registered User
Apr 21, 2014
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I wonder how many of you arguing against Eichels contract also patted Reiger on the back for letting Drury and Briere go after nickel and dining then and refusing to offer them a contract prior to the end of their final season.

Briere only just admitted he would’ve signed for less in a heartbeat as early as mid season..

That whistling noise is the point going past your head.
 

brian_griffin

"Eric Cartman?"
May 10, 2007
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I wonder how many of you arguing against Eichels contract also patted Reiger on the back for letting Drury and Briere go after nickel and dining then and refusing to offer them a contract prior to the end of their final season.

Briere only just admitted he would’ve signed for less in a heartbeat as early as mid season..

Different owners with different financial models / budgets... but we'll ignore that,
Quinn was the puppet-master on those deals, not Regier... but we'll ignore that,
RFA vs. UFA as Struck & Jame noted (and we WON'T ignore that)
Paying for potential vs. paying for proven performance...
Paying for proven leadership / playoff performance vs. zilch...

People aren't arguing against Eichel's contract as much as we were arguing that the Sabres should wait to extend him as some people hadn't seen enough from him to see him being worth $10M per year moving forward.

And 31 games into this season, he still isn't producing like an elite, generational talent that deserves $10M per year moving forward.

Eichel is t-63rd in the NHL in Pt/GP this season among players with at least 20 GP.

Is that the kind of production that you would expect from a $10M per year guy?
Even if you calculate the production as % of team share (a methodology which I would prefer for a team as offensively challenged as Buffalo), it won't merit the $10M AAV.
 

Jame

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Sep 4, 2002
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I'm not going to re-litigate this beyond saying the deals McDavid, Draisaitl or Jack got are not based on what they've done but what they will be. All have cap hits at, above or well above far more accomplished players.

This was always the most nonsense argument of the offseason.

Draisaitl did what Tarasenko did... and got a Tarasenko like contract.

McDavid went out and had a historical season, and got a historical contract

What did Jack Eichel do to get his contract? Answer: get unearned comparisons to McDavid because of the draft.
 

joshjull

Registered User
Aug 2, 2005
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Hamburg,NY
Sigh, you were wrong then and you are wrong now. And now the evidence for why it was stupid to give him that contract last year rather than at the end of this year, is made clear even for the blind.

I predicted his exact contract. How is that wrong?
 

Jame

Registered User
Sep 4, 2002
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I predicted his exact contract. How is that wrong?

I predict this colossal mistake of a tax bill will pass. It’s still a colossal mistake.

You predicted the contract AND supported the justification for it, that’s the part that was wrong.
 
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