Is Wayne Gretzky Getting Underrated on This Board?

Voight

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Considering he put prime Gretzky threw a neat shredder (31 points in 2 less games. Those players would be NOTHING to Lemieux. The fact that Lemieux despite all his health issues has the same amount of scoring titles as Howe says it all.

So what about all the times Gretzky put him (and everyone else) thru the shredder? Those don't count? What about the time Gretzky had more assists than Lemieux had points? Even with said health issues (which weren't helped by his habits) he played close to a full seasons 4/6 times he won the Art Ross. There were times Gretzky could have won the scoring title on assists alone, hell he'd be the all time leading scorer if you take out everyone one of his 800+ goals. Now THAT's greatness.

Gretzky was third in points as a hobbled down 37 year old. Lemieux was 8th, and that was playing with prime Jagr.
 

Nathaniel

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Oct 18, 2013
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So what about all the times Gretzky put him (and everyone else) thru the shredder? Those don't count? What about the time Gretzky had more assists than Lemieux had points? Even with said health issues (which weren't helped by his habits) he played close to a full seasons 4/6 times he won the Art Ross. There were times Gretzky could have won the scoring title on assists alone, hell he'd be the all time leading scorer if you take out everyone one of his 800+ goals. Now THAT's greatness.

Gretzky was third in points as a hobbled down 37 year old. Lemieux was 8th, and that was playing with prime Jagr.
8th but 2nd in ppg. My post was to show if Lemieux could handle Gretzky you think he would have a problem with any of howes contemporarys?
 

Mbraunm

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Oct 19, 2016
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Of course Gretzky would never approach 200 points in today’s game. But mathematical models predict ~150 points in his peak if he played today. I would make a conservative guess that throughout his prime in the modern NHL he would get about 25% more points than the 2nd best forward. This seems reasonable. This also would apply to Lemieux as well. This is a very conservative, well reasoned and low ball prediction.
 

hambone1818

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33 pages in and I can't believe how many people discount Gretzky's accomplishments because of era.

First, he could only play against his contemporaries. I think it's fair to question how much things change if the NHL were the more international league that it is today, but to me it would only have a minimal impact on the gap between Gretzky and everyone else.

Beyond that he dominated his era unlike anyone in the history of sports, save maybe Babe Ruth. He dominated vs other all-time greats like Messier and Lemieux. I think the problem is his game was more cerebral than anything, you almost question HOW he was able to do the things he did because he wasn't the fastest, wasn't the strongest, wasn't the most athletic. His game was vision and anticipation and passing that you almost can't imagine, so it's hard to even appreciate just how dominant he was because at times it didn't even seem like he was playing against real NHL talent, he was that far ahead of everyone and yet he wasn't 'elite' in any of the ways you'd typically see--ala McDavid with his speed and hands.

Also people act like thorough dominance in sports is no longer attainable, that Gretzky was partly aided by era and gaps due to sub-par training methods. Which is partly true, I think the gap from Gretzky to everyone else would be a little smaller today than before. BUT I'll point out early-2000's Bonds, Tiger during his prime, current-day Mike Trout, even Lebron to an extent. And to me, Gretzky was an even bigger outlier than any of them because so much of his talent was the aforementioned vision/hockey sense.

TL;DR Gretzky could grow up in any era and absolutely crush the competition, he'd easily be the best player in the world right now.
 

GreatGonzo

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If these different eras are so significant with the 80s being a “joke” of a league, why keep Gretzky’s records? Why take it seriously if all it was, was him feasting on the worst goaltending, defenses, and bottom depth the NHL has ever seen?

I mean, people don’t call him the greatest player of the 80s, so why are so many of you fixated on that time frame. I mean we might as well erase anything before the 06 lockout since it was clearly nothing but “inferior” play. Nothing but a beer league.

I have a really hard time believing that Kucherov, Gaudreau, Stamkos, Malkin, and Kessel are actually better talents and would beat Gretzky if he would have played been in this era. But apparently if you put all those players in the 80s, they would rewrite the record books.
Implying he would ever be a part of that pack to begin with? Because im pretty sure he wouldnt be. 140-160 points in todays league during his prime/peak(which is basically the same thing really), atleast.

Anyway it's all guesstimates so kinda pointless, fact is he did what he did. Dominated to a unheard of degree for quite a long time.
IMO he would be the best by a good margin, how big the margin though? That’s the question.
 

Tripod

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Reality is, remove Gretzky and Lemieux and you are left with guys the best guys EVER scoring 140-155 points. But pre-Gretzky:

Espo 152
Espo 145
Orr 139

The fact that Gretzky walked into the league, and scored at a 41% higher rate in his best season (215) compared to the best ever previously, is pretty crazy.
 

GreatGonzo

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Reality is, remove Gretzky and Lemieux and you are left with guys the best guys EVER scoring 140-155 points. But pre-Gretzky:

Espo 152
Espo 145
Orr 139

The fact that Gretzky walked into the league, and scored at a 41% higher rate in his best season (215) compared to the best ever previously, is pretty crazy.
1970-79
  1. Esposito: 152
  2. Esposito: 145
  3. Orr: 139
  4. Lafleur: 136
  5. Orr: 135
  6. Trottier: 134
  7. Esposito: 133
  8. Lafleur: 132
  9. Dionne: 130
  10. Esposito: 130
1980-89
  1. Yzerman: 155
  2. Nicholls: 150
  3. Bossy: 147
  4. Stastny: 139
  5. Coffey: 138
  6. Dionne: 137
  7. Maruk: 136
  8. Kurri: 135
  9. Dionne: 135
  10. Kurri: 131
1990-99
  1. Jagr: 149
  2. LaFontaine: 148
  3. Oates: 142
  4. Yzerman: 137
  5. Selanne: 132
  6. Turgeon: 132
  7. Hull: 131
  8. Messier: 129
  9. Mogilny: 127
  10. Yzerman: 127
Just for show
2006-17
  1. Thornton: 125
  2. Jagr: 123
  3. Crosby: 120
  4. Thornton: 114
  5. Malkin: 113
  6. Ovechkin: 112
  7. H. Semin: 112
  8. Ovechkin: 110
  9. Crosby: 109
  10. Malkin: 109

That’s what it would look like if you take out Gretzky and Lemieux. Esposito would have held the single season record at 152 points, only to be broken by Yzerman with 155.

The underlined players are players that played with Gretzky or Lemieux, so they point totals would most likely be very different without those 2, especially Kurri.

There is no telling what their point totals would have been, but they are very much subject to change given the idea.
 
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GreatGonzo

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For the record, this is how the most points in a single season was broken through time

Howe: 95 points(1953)
Moore: 96 points(1959)
Bull: 97 points(1966) Makita: 97(1967)
Esposito: 126 points(1969) 29 point diff.
-Goals a game on average was the same in ‘67 and ‘69
Esposito: 152 points(1971) 26 point diff.
-Average rises to 3.12 in ‘71
Gretzky: 164 points(1981) 12 point diff
-Average is at 3.84
Gretzky: 212 points(1982) 48 point diff.
-Average is at 4.01
Gretzky: 215 points(1986)
-Average is at 3.97

I mean did he jump 48 points really because the average went from 3.84 to 4? Especially considering the next closest to him those 2 years were Bossy(147 points-65 point difference) and Lemieux(141 points-74 point difference).

I’m aware it was high scoring, but it’s clear as day that Gretzky didn’t “benefit” from it, as much as he made the era itself even more high scoring.
 

GreatGonzo

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I'd like to point out that the 80's as a whole had the highest PP's of any other decade in league history and higher PP scoring as well as higher scoring overall because of that. The 80's was by far and away basically a PP fest. If 05/06 wasn't good hockey then neither was the 80's.
ES: 774-441-681-1122
PP: 774-136-356-492
SH: 774-60-63-123
That’s 774-502-774-1276 non PP points.

Gretzky’s has a 2.37 PPG at ES through out the 80s, what makes it more impressive is he out scored the 2nd closest(Kurri) by 552 points, even his SH numbers, he out scores the 2nd close by 54 points.

Many others may have benefited from the high PPs during the 80s, but Gretzky was the strongest at ES and even SH by a long shot.
 
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Daximus

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ES: 774-441-681-1122
PP: 774-136-356-492
SH: 774-60-63-123
That’s 774-502-774-1276 non PP points.

Gretzky’s has a 2.37 PPG at ES through out the 80s, what makes it more impressive is he out scored the 2nd closest by 552 points, even his SH numbers, he out scores the 2nd close by 54 points. He has

Many others may have benefited from the high PPs during the 80s, but Gretzky was the strongest at ES and even SH by a long shot.

Oh for sure just commenting on someone saying PP fests are boring yet celebrating 80s scoring which by far and away the highest PP era of league history.
 
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GreatGonzo

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Oh for sure just commenting on someone saying PP fests are boring yet celebrating 80s scoring which by far and away the highest PP era of league history.
Ah I see, I was just flowing off of what you stated. It’s insane how much he didn’t need you to be a man down to dominate.
 

Daximus

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Ah I see, I was just flowing off of what you stated. It’s insane how much he didn’t need you to be a man down to dominate.

Yeah he was a monster for sure.

They really need to bring back the PP fest if they want scoring to return. I looked at Gretzky's highest scoring season in the 80's and how many PP goals were scored and there was like 21 guys who had more PP goals in that year than 16/17's PP goal leader. Don't quote me on that, hard to look up on my phone but it was something crazy like that. Call the game like it's supposed to be called and we will see an increase in scoring.
 
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Asheville

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Feb 1, 2018
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Gretzky has the most short-handed goals of all-time. True story

.....but plus-minus proves bad at D. Derp.

Some posters will legitimately try to sell you that shit.
 

deaderhead28

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Jul 3, 2010
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Gretz will be the great one.Not everyone was young enough to watch Gretz area and today's style.Gretz was and is the greatest hockey player to date.I can't imagine how many points or goals Gretz would've if he had the equipment and training programs players today have.Rules today are open ice and cherry picking unlike in the area of two line passes and games ending in a tie with no shootouts or three on three play.
 

brachyrynchos

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Gretzky has the most short-handed goals of all-time. True story

.....but plus-minus proves bad at D. Derp.

Some posters will legitimately try to sell you that ****.
Only in his later years with the Kings and Rangers Gretzky had some minus seasons, he did finish his career +518 (which can probably be debated either way), which is ranked 4th, behind Robinson, Orr, and Bourque.
 

trader997

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33 pages in and I can't believe how many people discount Gretzky's accomplishments because of era.

First, he could only play against his contemporaries. I think it's fair to question how much things change if the NHL were the more international league that it is today, but to me it would only have a minimal impact on the gap between Gretzky and everyone else.

Beyond that he dominated his era unlike anyone in the history of sports, save maybe Babe Ruth. He dominated vs other all-time greats like Messier and Lemieux. I think the problem is his game was more cerebral than anything, you almost question HOW he was able to do the things he did because he wasn't the fastest, wasn't the strongest, wasn't the most athletic. His game was vision and anticipation and passing that you almost can't imagine, so it's hard to even appreciate just how dominant he was because at times it didn't even seem like he was playing against real NHL talent, he was that far ahead of everyone and yet he wasn't 'elite' in any of the ways you'd typically see--ala McDavid with his speed and hands.

Also people act like thorough dominance in sports is no longer attainable, that Gretzky was partly aided by era and gaps due to sub-par training methods. Which is partly true, I think the gap from Gretzky to everyone else would be a little smaller today than before. BUT I'll point out early-2000's Bonds, Tiger during his prime, current-day Mike Trout, even Lebron to an extent. And to me, Gretzky was an even bigger outlier than any of them because so much of his talent was the aforementioned vision/hockey sense.

TL;DR Gretzky could grow up in any era and absolutely crush the competition, he'd easily be the best player in the world right now.
lol you are talking about Claude or Jocelyn right?
 

Sadekuuro

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His release was quick, deceptive and accurate. Nothing about his game was based around power, and that includes his shot, but he made a lot of goals look much easier than they were because of his great patience and anticipation. The way people talk about him it is kind of funny though, it's as if he was this skating brain. He was absolutely one of the most skilled players in the 80s in terms of passing, skating, stickhandling and shooting... you don't put up 2000 points in a decade just being in the right place at the right time.

You don't have to sell me on his skills, I already agree. His skating in particular was exceptional. His wrister wasn't bad (and his release was definitely great), but it wouldn't make many "best of" lists either. It might well have been the only aspect besides sheer size and reach in which he was no match for Mario, who had probably the best wrist shot I've ever seen. That's not to say it wasn't effective enough. Obviously Wayne's game didn't suffer too badly as a result, haha.
 

BraveCanadian

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I'd like to point out that the 80's as a whole had the highest PP's of any other decade in league history and higher PP scoring as well as higher scoring overall because of that. The 80's was by far and away basically a PP fest. If 05/06 wasn't good hockey then neither was the 80's.

Not for the dynasty Oilers it wasn't.

Gretzky is - by far - the best ES scorer in hockey history.
 
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CartographerNo611

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Its funny how Bure and Forsberg get so much more love on hfboards then Gretz ever will. The latter only broke 100 points twice, TWICE, and never got more than 30 goals. Most posters fawn over him like he was the greatest thing since slice bread, not even on the same level as Ovie. Bure cracked 100 points, TWICE. You want to talk goals, many consider Bure the "best" goal scorer next to Mike Bossy. Gretz beat Bure's peak two 60 goal seasons by 32, 11, 27, 13, and 2 while having four 50 goal seasons on top of that compared to Bure's 3, not including 60+ goal seasons. Gretzky had eleven 100 point seasons, just in assists alone. Twice as many 100 point seasons (including goals )as Bure and Forsberg COMBINED.

The explanation is simple, a lot of hfboards like flash, glitter and strobe lights type players. Gretzky, was no where near Forsberg or Bure type of flash. His ability to know where is teammates will be and opponents will be, has been unmatched, not even Crosby comes anywhere close to Gretzky ability to read the game. Gretz ability to just know where the puck will be, is unmatched (outside of Mario/Orr). Thats is boring, because you cant watch it unlike skating 100 mph and able to pull off Datsyuk dekes or hit everything in sight. No amount of almonds, vitamins, or hours on the treadmill will teach what Gretzky's mind was able to pick up. Its why the era vs era argument is pure hogwash.

Another thing that has only been matched by Mario and Orr, is his consistent passing ability. We have seen flashes of it with EK65 in the playoffs last year (the Bruins pass). Gretzky was pulling that off multiple times every night for a good stretch of his career in regular season and playoffs. Factor that in with his passing, you pretty much have a god on the ice.

In the 100 years of the NHL, the dozen or so "eras" played, only 1 player has cracked 200 points in a season... and he did it 4 times. That man is Gretzky. Mario was 1 point away, but 199 is not 200. Crosby, Mcdavid, Yzerman, Jagr, Orr, Howe, Richard, or EK75, have come no where near 200 points, and those are great players in their own right.
 
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maacoshark

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Jul 22, 2017
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Are people just too young to understand how great he was? He scored over 700 more points than any other player in the 1980's. So the argument about it being so easy to score in the 80's does not quite work for me.

More assists than any player ever has total points. How can that not impress you?

No player ever has statistically dominated a sport like Gretzky has,
Well he did play in the no defense era. He did put up some sickening numbers. He was the ultimate floater though. He didnt play defense. Other than offense he really did absolutely nothing else.
 

authentic

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Its funny how Bure and Forsberg get so much more love on hfboards then Gretz ever will. The latter only broke 100 points twice, TWICE, and never got more than 30 goals. Most posters fawn over him like he was the greatest thing since slice bread, not even on the same level as Ovie. Bure cracked 100 points, TWICE. You want to talk goals, many consider Bure the "best" goal scorer next to Mike Bossy. Gretz beat Bure's peak two 60 goal seasons by 32, 11, 27, 13, and 2 while having four 50 goal seasons on top of that compared to Bure's 3, not including 60+ goal seasons. Gretzky had eleven 100 point seasons, just in assists alone. Twice as many 100 point seasons (including goals )as Bure and Forsberg COMBINED.

The explanation is simple, a lot of hfboards like flash, glitter and strobe lights type players. Gretzky, was no where near Forsberg or Bure type of flash. His ability to know where is teammates will be and opponents will be, has been unmatched, not even Crosby comes anywhere close to Gretzky ability to read the game. Gretz ability to just know where the puck will be, is unmatched (outside of Mario/Orr). Thats is boring, because you cant watch it unlike skating 100 mph and able to pull off Datsyuk dekes or hit everything in sight. No amount of almonds, vitamins, or hours on the treadmill will teach what Gretzky's mind was able to pick up. Its why the era vs era argument is pure hogwash.

Another thing that has only been matched by Mario and Orr, is his consistent passing ability. We have seen flashes of it with EK65 in the playoffs last year (the Bruins pass). Gretzky was pulling that off multiple times every night for a good stretch of his career in regular season and playoffs. Factor that in with his passing, you pretty much have a god on the ice.

In the 100 years of the NHL, the dozen or so "eras" played, only 1 player has cracked 200 points in a season... and he did it 4 times. That man is Gretzky. Mario was 1 point away, but 199 is not 200. Crosby, Mcdavid, Yzerman, Jagr, Orr, Howe, Richard, or EK75, have come no where near 200 points, and those are great players in their own right.

Has absolutely nothing to do with the era he played in though right?
 

JianYang

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Sep 29, 2017
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Are people just too young to understand how great he was? He scored over 700 more points than any other player in the 1980's. So the argument about it being so easy to score in the 80's does not quite work for me.

More assists than any player ever has total points. How can that not impress you?

No player ever has statistically dominated a sport like Gretzky has,

I think what happens is that if you didn't see him play, then you underappreciate that player and if you did see him play, the legend keeps growing, and they may talk over the top about him.

If you're a 90s kid, do you really consider guys like Orr and howe as the very best? Probably not, but those that grew up during their respective careers will probably try to convince you that they could actually walk on water.

The answer lies in the middle.
 

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