Is Tim Thomas HHOF or HHOVG?

[vadim sharifijanov]

maybe i'm wrong. i just went to the HOH top 40 voting thread and here are those goalies, plus a couple of others, with their rank on the left and number of ballots they appeared on in parentheses. giggy is right there with nabokov and miller.

61 kolzig (19)
62 nabokov (10)
63 giguere (11)
65 moog (13)
68 miller (9)
69 burke (3)
70 khabibulin (9)
81 vokoun (4)

 

[Sanf]

In his 1996 World Championships Bronze Medal effort he played backup to the legendary Parris Duffus. Has to count as something?

But... He is a cool dude and i'm with Killion on this one, he should perhaps get in. That 1996 Bronze was part of his outlier path to fame.

That was a tandem. If Thomas can be described erratic, Duffus had rather eccentric style.

 

[BlueBull]

... "stroking his gun collection in his bunker"?..... I liked this guy already but that, that pretty much puts him over the top vs.... gonna start a FB campaign.... Thomas for the HHOF..... and I guess I'd be in the "oddball" category with my ballot, because ya, I go for peak over longevity with goalies. Their just built different. Some guys have long NHL careers with several peaks & valleys, Sawchuk & Parent for example, others consistently solid (Plante, Roy, Belfour), others brilliant series & seasons then either gone completely, or like a Roger Crozier or a Jon Casey get injured, sick, get shuffled around or what have you, maybe peak again somewhere else briefly years later, maybe not. I dont mind, I appreciate the sort of "one hit wonders". Shooting stars as opposed to consistency & longevity & will, do rank some of them above those who were consistently solid.

Yes, of course. The only goalie I know with a short career in the Hall of Fame is Ken Dryden, and Ken had top a Top 5, even Top 3 PLAYER in the NHL throughout most, if not, all of his career.


And Yes. One hit wonders are awesome. I would love guys like Mike Rodgers, Paul Reinhart and Tim Thomas to get some credit. Great peak Players, albeit short careers.

 

[quoipourquoi]

i wonder: is js giguere even a HOVG goalie? like thomas, his highs are crazy high. unlike thomas, he has a run where he is a legit starter for seven straight years, with a prime of 30 wins and top 10 vezina placement four out of five years. nestled within that prime, of course, are one of the greatest goalie performances of all time accompanied by a conn smythe, and a cup win that could easily have come with a second smythe and i wouldn't have blinked. but i'm willing to bet that if we were to do a top 200 goalies list guys like olie kolzig, sean burke, andy moog, nik khabibulin, and ryan miller would be ahead of giguere on most ballots.

He was kinda limited by a medical condition that did him no favors in an era of high-GP goaltending seasons. Probably would have been better served if his career lined up with the prevalence of the two-goalie systems. In spite of this, I think it still took two lockouts to keep him under 300 Wins.

It's weird. Hall of Fame likes career numbers, and the goaltending position can carry with it and incredibly different amount of GP from team-to-team without necessarily being tied to ability. At any rate, his number is going to end up on a banner and he's maybe the best (no worse than #3) goaltender in playoff overtime. If he's not in your HHOVG, I'll draw his portrait in MS Paint and hang it myself.

 

[The Pale King]

He's just a bit ahead of Barrasso in terms of American goalies with mercurial personalities, eh? That seems close to me, obviously Barrasso with the much longer prime, Tim with the peak.

 

[BlueBull]

That's to list A Few. Some others:
Kent Nilsson
Hakan Loob
Zigmund Palffy
Jeff Brown (?. was about as good at scoring as Mark Howe)
Rick Martin
Rene Robert
(French Connection Line, add another Hall Hat Trick HHOF!)
Pierre Larouche
Now to Goalies:
Jean Sebastian Guigere
Sean Burke
Andy Moog
Ryan Miller
Olaf Kolzig
Rick Wamsley (?)
Evgeni Nabokov
Nikolai Khabibulin
Tomas Vokoun
Miika Kisprusoff
The List Goes on...

 

[BlueBull]

That's to list A Few. Some others:
Kent Nilsson
Hakan Loob
Zigmund Palffy
Jeff Brown (?. was about as good at scoring as Mark Howe)
Rick Martin
Rene Robert
(French Connection Line, add another Hall Hat Trick HHOF!)
Pierre Larouche
Now to Goalies:
Jean Sebastian Guigere
Sean Burke
Andy Moog
Ryan Miller
Olaf Kolzig
Rick Wamsley (?)
Evgeni Nabokov
Nikolai Khabibulin
Tomas Vokoun
Rogie Vachon
Miika Kisprusoff
The List Goes on...

The Say 400 Games, 200 Wins... But it's more like, unless multiple vezinas... 750 games 375 wins.

 

[Doctor No]

And Yes. One hit wonders are awesome. I would love guys like Mike Rodgers, Paul Reinhart and Tim Thomas to get some credit. Great peak Players, albeit short careers.

You know, it's possible for players to get "some credit" without being inducted into the HHOF. Tim Thomas *has* gotten quite a bit of credit, in fact.

 

[BlueBull]

You know, it's possible for players to get "some credit" without being inducted into the HHOF. Tim Thomas *has* gotten quite a bit of credit, in fact.

When i say "some credit" I mean the edge of the ballot.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

Jeff Brown (?. was about as good at scoring as Mark Howe)

mark howe was a terrific defender. jeff brown was... not a terrific defender.

 

[Doctor No]

Rogie Vachon

I'm not entirely sure of the purpose of this list, but if it's to advocate for Rogie Vachon's admission into the HHOF, you should check the current inductee list. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

He was kinda limited by a medical condition that did him no favors in an era of high-GP goaltending seasons. Probably would have been better served if his career lined up with the prevalence of the two-goalie systems. In spite of this, I think it still took two lockouts to keep him under 300 Wins.

It's weird. Hall of Fame likes career numbers, and the goaltending position can carry with it and incredibly different amount of GP from team-to-team without necessarily being tied to ability. At any rate, his number is going to end up on a banner and he's maybe the best (no worse than #3) goaltender in playoff overtime. If he's not in your HHOVG, I'll draw his portrait in MS Paint and hang it myself.

yeah i guess i had underestimated the temperature of the room on giguere. which is fine by me, i like him a lot. hell, i like him ahead of tim thomas, who all participants in the top 40 project had in their top 60 lists.

 

[tarheelhockey]

I go for peak over longevity with goalies. Their just built different.

It’s tough with goalies. Unless they happen into a long term dynasty situation, it’s damned near impossible for them to be consistently successful from a stats or W/L perspective. The moment the team falls off, all of a sudden the goalie loses his mystique as well. That doesn’t happen so much with forwards, who can keep piling on points and actually end up benefitting from the “great player on a bad team” narrative. Goalies rarely if ever get that benefit of the doubt.

But I’m not sure what it means with respect to peak vs longevity. Do you take the goalie who shows that, under reasonably favorable circumstances, he can carry his team as a bona fide difference-maker? Or do you take the guy who consistently shows up at a modest level, proving that he’s no flash in the pan, year-in and year-out?

 

[quoipourquoi]

yeah i guess i had underestimated the temperature of the room on giguere. which is fine by me, i like him a lot. hell, i like him ahead of tim thomas, who all participants in the top 40 project had in their top 60 lists.

I wouldn't trust my opinion on him. The wallpaper on my cellphone has been either Giguere or Manon Rheaume for the last decade.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

It’s tough with goalies. Unless they happen into a long term dynasty situation, it’s damned near impossible for them to be consistently successful from a stats or W/L perspective. The moment the team falls off, all of a sudden the goalie loses his mystique as well. That doesn’t happen so much with forwards, who can keep piling on points and actually end up benefitting from the “great player on a bad team” narrative. Goalies rarely if ever get that benefit of the doubt.

But I’m not sure what it means with respect to peak vs longevity. Do you take the goalie who shows that, under reasonably favorable circumstances, he can carry his team as a bona fide difference-maker? Or do you take the guy who consistently shows up at a modest level, proving that he’s no flash in the pan, year-in and year-out?

i don't think we're talking about the difference between a bona fide difference-maker vs a consistently modest level guy. i think we're talking about a vezina/smythe level peak vs a consistent top 10 guy, right? like, sean burke, evgeni nabokov, ryan miller, those guys still turn their team's needle a long way, even if none of them ever had one great career-legitimizing peak run like beezer or i guess kolzig.

but you make a good point, and i'll use trevor linden as an example: trevor linden was a bona fide good player. up to '96, every GM in the league would want linden on his team at no lower than his fourth on his forward depth chart. there were rumours that pat quinn turned down a linden for sakic trade before the '94 cup run and i don't doubt that the offer was on the table. but then after linden's career goes to hell, he still sticks around as a third line grinder, and at the very end as a fourth liner. a goalie falls off like that, he's not in the league anymore. linden played another decade, more than 700 games. that's more seasons (and way more games) than tim thomas' entire NHL career.

 

[BlueBull]

I'm not entirely sure of the purpose of this list, but if it's to advocate for Rogie Vachon's admission into the HHOF, you should check the current inductee list. You'll be pleasantly surprised.

Lol yeah woops. Forgot he was inducted in 2017

 

[Killion]

It’s tough with goalies. Unless they happen into a long term dynasty situation, it’s damned near impossible for them to be consistently successful from a stats or W/L perspective. The moment the team falls off, all of a sudden the goalie loses his mystique as well. That doesn’t happen so much with forwards, who can keep piling on points and actually end up benefitting from the “great player on a bad team” narrative. Goalies rarely if ever get that benefit of the doubt.

But I’m not sure what it means with respect to peak vs longevity. Do you take the goalie who shows that, under reasonably favorable circumstances, he can carry his team as a bona fide difference-maker? Or do you take the guy who consistently shows up at a modest level, proving that he’s no flash in the pan, year-in and year-out?

It really does depend upon on how your team is built. For example; Glenn Hall vs Johnny Bower & which one, who's better?.... Bower benefited enormously from the "Total Team Defence" System Hockey employed by Punch Imlach & always had plenty of gas in his tank come the Playoffs. Especially so when the 2 Goalie Roster was mandated. While I love Johnny Bower, I always considered him "average", a consistent workhorse, reliable, rarely spectacular but then given the way the Leafs played he didnt have to be....

Glenn Hall on the other hand, under Ivan et al, he had to be spectacular throughout the Regular Season, over-worked in fact as Chicago was all run-n-gun without a lot of depth defensively & inevitably come Playoff's, Hall running on damn near empty, and its Defence & Goaltending that wins you the Cup (unless your the Oilers & its the 80's). I dont know if many would argue that "Bower was better than Hall", I know I certainly wouldnt. We saw when at 36 a rested Hall go out & win the Smythe in a losing effort in the Finals with St. Louis, he was spectacular, just didnt have the horses to help him out but without him, it wouldve been a total blowout and embarrassment to the League for sure... then winning the Vezina a couple of years later, his 3rd, at 38.

 

[Big Phil]

I said HOVG. He didn't do enough, for long enough. I liked him, he played a throwback style of goaltending that was a lost art. But there were some weird things. He wins the Vezina in 2009, isn't his team's starter in 2010 and then wins the Vezina, Cup and Conn Smythe in 2011. Strange. I don't know, he gets the Bernie Parent comparison and I don't think that's right. Parent won two Cups, two Conn Smythes as well. Plus his time on the Leafs prior to that and the Flyers even post expansion before that too.

Not to mention even post Cups he had a couple of very good seasons in 1977 and 1978. Just didn't duplicate the playoff success. So there are differences.

 

[Jumptheshark]

Tim Thomas was a Goalie who played for The Bruins along with Stints with the Panthers and the Stars. During his time playing in the NHL, he was a Great Hockey Player
William M Jennings in 2009
Vezina in 2009 and 2011
Conn Smythe in 2011
2x All Star Team
2011 Stanley Cup Win
Won 70.2% of the 305 Games he started in
U.HHOFS of 25.48 and O.HHOFS of 34.16 ( http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threa...hhofer-or-a-score-for-a-players-case.2478123/ )
He was the best Goalie in the NHL for a little while, but is he a Hall of Famer?
To me, it's close, but I think he is Hall Of Very Good. But it's my opinion, I would like to see what your opinions are.
-BlueBull

Hall of very good

 

[BlueBull]

I said HOVG. He didn't do enough, for long enough. I liked him, he played a throwback style of goaltending that was a lost art. But there were some weird things. He wins the Vezina in 2009, isn't his team's starter in 2010 and then wins the Vezina, Cup and Conn Smythe in 2011. Strange. I don't know, he gets the Bernie Parent comparison and I don't think that's right. Parent won two Cups, two Conn Smythes as well. Plus his time on the Leafs prior to that and the Flyers even post expansion before that too.

Not to mention even post Cups he had a couple of very good seasons in 1977 and 1978. Just didn't duplicate the playoff success. So there are differences.

Tukka Rask.

 

[NyQuil]

It's tough for goalies because they typically have less career to draw from.

Very few goalies play in their early 20s and although they can have long careers into their late 30s and early 40s, that also relies on health and a other factors.

So I think it's a bit unfair sometimes in that they often don't have the length of resume that we require from skaters, or the length of peak that we associate with skaters.

 

[Doctor No]

Tukka Rask.

What about him?

 

[Big Phil]

Tukka Rask.

Right. He did blow a 3-0 series lead for the first time in 35 years up until that point, so I guess it is a positive that Thomas didn't do that.

 

[trentmccleary]

There have been comments kind of implying that longevity is overrated or not necessary. The problem I have is that at some point, every player winds up in a sweet spot (favourable coach, good linemates, whatever). But if you move around, play long enough or play internationally... eventually we'll see if you can succeed outside of those ideal conditions. We never got to see Thomas succeed without Julien-Chara-Bergeron.

 

[BlueBull]

There have been comments kind of implying that longevity is overrated or not necessary. The problem I have is that at some point, every player winds up in a sweet spot (favourable coach, good linemates, whatever). But if you move around, play long enough or play internationally... eventually we'll see if you can succeed outside of those ideal conditions. We never got to see Thomas succeed without Julien-Chara-Bergeron.

basically implying Price's HHOF Status... I like it. lol