Discussion in 'Detroit Red Wings' started by Redder Winger, Dec 11, 2017.
Once Z and Kronner are gone its bound to happen.
ericson wouldn't even be such a terrible idea - at least when you think about someone like danny dekeyser wearing an A just because of this ridicolous contract. Ericson was here when we were still good and at least plays solid hockey at the moment, something "steady danny" seemingly isn't capable of. This assistant captain stuff is overrated, isn't it? Larkin seems to be a good character to wear the C, he might be our best young player and he doesn't whine as much as in seasons past.
Franzen is not okay for SOIR. SOIR only applies to players on 2-way contracts. And even then it only applies to players whose injuries occurred during the off-season.
Length of contract does matter. However the threshold to trigger recapture is 6+ years. So Kronwall's 7 year SPC is subject to recapture.
Mouser, you seem to have some knowledge that most don't. My, uninformed, understanding was that because Franzen did not play any games in the preceding season (for this year's cap and next) his cap amount didn't need to be figured into the team's cap number during the offseason, or for first day of the season, or during the year. (Capfriendly.com rookie mode LTIR if that helps explain things).
If that's incorrect, can you help us understand the real impact?
Let's say that the cap next year is 80 mil. Let's pretend Zetterberg goes the LTIRetire route in the offseason. For easy numbers let's use 4 mil for franzen and 6 for Zetterberg.
What's the impact? Can that 10 million be put on LTIR? Could we only stash 8 mil (10% of cap) of it in the offseason? Does that mean we would actually be using a cap number of $78 mil during the season.
As you can see I'm confused. I'm not thinking that Z definitely goes LTIR but just to properly understand how LTIR might affect us going forward. Kronwall is more likely to go that route.
There was a misunderstanding on SOIR that ran around the forums this summer, especially involving Toronto and Lupul/Horton. Injured players always need to be factored in during the season and off-season. There's a special rule called SOIR that applies to players on 2-way contracts where their cap hit (and salary) are based on the % of days they were on the NHL roster the previous season. So for example if a player on a 2-way contract was injured in training camp and had to go on LTIR their cap hit could be reduced (as low as zero) if they weren't a full-time NHL player the previous season.
CF's rookie mode LTIR is useful, but it's different from the real world pro-mode in that the cap relief gained when a player is placed on LTIR Exception depends on what the team salary cap is on the day that LTIR is exercised. Rookie mode assumes you can get 100% cap relief on the LTIR. The more realistic pro-mode will give 0-100% relief depending on team payroll and any other LTIR's.
Using your example of $80m, during the offseason the Wings could have a total payroll 110% of $80m = $88m. Franzen and Z's contracts would count against that, leaving $78m for other players. Another thing to keep in mind is that during the offseason you don't count the 23 or so players you expect to have on the opening day roster. You count all players on 1-way contracts. Plus all players on 2-way contracts at a % equal of the % of days they spend on the NHL roster the prior season. So for example, players on 1-way deals like Puempel, Street and Coreau would have all counted fully against the cap this past offseason. Players on 2-way deals like Russo and Bertuzzi would have had a portion of their contracts count towards the offseason cap. Because of the inevitable injury callups the prior season, usually a team's offseason cap total will be higher then the opening day cap total due to those contracts that have to be factored into the offseason cap.
There is such a thing as offseason usage of LTIR, but so far to my knowledge it has never happened except on the last day of training camp--this is what the Wings did this season with Franzen. There were rumblings this summer that the Leafs might use some odd form of offseason LTIR, however they never ended up doing so. So we don't have any real world examples of if its really possible and if so would it differ from using LTIR on the last day of training camp (my personal guess is it would be the same).
If a team reaches the last day of training camp and their total payroll is over the cap with no way to make any short term moves to become cap compliant then they can exercise an LTIR exception on that last day to become compliant (assuming the team has an LTIR eligible player). Again, this is what the Wings did with Franzen this season. The amount of relief received depends on what the payroll is on the final day of training camp. Let's say using your figures that Z is health and the wings offseason cap is at $83m with no way to get below $80m before opening day, then on the last day of training camp they could using the LTIR on Franzen. When you LTIR in training camp the team receives relief equal to the amount they're over the cap. So in this example of $83m payroll, LTIRing Franzen would give $3m of relief, and the team could run a $83m payroll during the season.**
It gets more complicated when multiple players can go on LTIR. Let's say both Z and Franzen are going on LTIR, and the Wings end training camp with the following payroll totals:
a) $82m. The Wings LTIR Franzen in TC, then Z on day 1 of the season. Franzen takes the cap to $82m, then Z takes it to $88m as they get 100% from Z already being at the cap limit. Total of 80% relief on the $10m in LTIR contracts.
b) $83m. The Wings LTIR Franzen in TC, then Z on day 1 of the season. Franzen takes the cap to $83m, then Z takes it to $89m. Total of 90% relief.
c) $85m. The Wings LTIR Z in TC, then Franzen on day 1. Z takes the cap to $85m, then Franzen takes it to $89m. Total of 90% relief.
d) $87m. The Wings LTIR Z and Franzen in TC. Combined they take the cap to $87m. Total of 70% relief.
I hope that makes sense, I know my reply was a bit long winded. The greatest possible relief would be to end TC with a payroll of $80m, $84m, or $86m. In those cases Franzen and Z could both be LTIRed to get 100% relief.
**CF shows the Wings as receiving 100% of relief on Franzen's TC LTIR this season. Normally it would be next to impossible to get 100%. I haven't tried crunching the numbers, but it may have been possible to get the 100% here due to Bertuzzi, Lorito and Svechnikov being on SOIR. They all had small cap hits due to time on the roster in 2016-17 that could have allowed some machinations of the SOIR cap hits to reach 100% on Franzen's LTIR.
I really appreciate the time it took for that response. It’ll be a great source for looking at possible scenarios.
Time to trade Zetterberg, if he is gonna retire.
He would net us 2x 1st round pick and that would be a huge impact for the future.
It's the best legacy Zetterberg could give us.
I can already smell and see him as a New York Ranger.
When Kulfan last week writes stuff like "...depending on whether or not Z and Kronwall retire...", it seems more and more possible. Where there's smoke there's fire.
A great point was made in this thread: if Z is happy and productive he'll return. Do you think he is? 46 points is not too shabby for a 37 year old lol. Happines, IDK. At times he appears frustrated in the PG's but that doesn't say a whole lot.
I remember Zetterberg saying he wanted to see the team into the new arena, which he has. Reaching milestones in points, GP, etc. this season I wonder if he might feel satisfied calling it quits.
I wish we knew. We'll have to hope Mickey mixes too much Canadian Club in his coffee and spills the beans again like how he did with Datsyuk.
If we draft the Swedish phenom Dahlin he will stick around for another season to play with him
Hank is playing pretty damn decently for his advanced age. I have no knocks.
Also, Yzerman, Lidstrom, Zetterberg... Abdelkader. Woof.
Serious question here. Do you not need proof of something to go on LTIR? I've seen plenty of Wings fans mention putting Kronwall/ Big E and now Z on LTIR like if it was no big deal. From what I've seen they can still play (not very well but still playing nonetheless).
Well of Hossa can go on ltir for being allergic to hockey equipment, i don't see why the league would stop anyone else for going on ltir for illegitimate reasons.
Correct. In Kronwall's case, he has chronic documented knee problems. He's pretty much been told "if you can accept the pain, you can play". He could go on LTIR. E, different story, that can't happen unless he gets injured.
Do you happen to have a link for that Kronwall statement?
Kronwall's present and future status remain uncertain
This is just one of many I have read.
If Bettman want to be a dick, he could go after the Red Wings' using Zetterberg's comments.
It's really up to the league. If they want to make an example of what happens when you think you're outsmarting the league, they have ammo.
And Bettman, the tactician, loves to exert power just to remind everyone he's in charge.
So I don't know.
But points or no points, i think Z and Kronwall are done.
Kronwall has little reason to comeback for $1.75M.
Zetterberg doesn't hit rock bottom until next year. But he's at $3.35M
The next 3 years of his deal are for $5.35M.
Maybe -- less than he's making this year.
Which comments are you referring to specifically here?
I totally read your reply wrong. I was looking for a statement about LTIR when it comes to Kronwall. It makes sense though, if he can't take the pain any longer just go on LTIR. But some people are making it seem like its just a matter of paperwork to put someone on LTIR. I haven't heard anything about Z's back bothering him lately or anything for that matter that would require LTIR. Same with Big E
Love the Here, But on a serious note Z retires a Wing.
Ya no worries, and you are correct. There has to be a legit medical issue, that is backed up by a doctor. The Hossa thing put the bar pretty low, but there still is a bar.
Why Zetterberg’s potential two-year retirement plan is worrisome for Red Wings | The Hockey News
In a candid interview with a Swedish radio station, since translated by The Detroit News via Aftonbladet, Zetterberg said that the intention when he signed his current 12-year, $73-million contract was never to play every single one of the dozen seasons. Instead, Zetterberg admitted, the deal was made to keep cap costs down and lock him into a deal that could “fool the system.” It was one of the now infamous back-diving, cap-circumventing contracts, the kind of pact which has since been outlawed, and it’s not hard to label it as such given Zetterberg will make $7 million this season, $3.35 million in 2018-19 and see his salary drop to $1 million in each of the final two years of the pact.
Well, it's pretty obvious that was the intent with all of those deals. It has already been addressed with the re-capture rule, which was a BS overreaction and response by the league to all of those deals.
Every player that signed one of those deals had no intention of playing the entire duration of it, whether they said so or not.
Plus they would look like idiots/hypocrites since they hired Pronger while he was still under contract.
Yea. His P/60 sucks.
Recapture penalty or not, I don't see is as a huge problem.
Cap has gone up 25 million since those days the Z deal was done. As a contender that would matter much, but for us? Meaningless for a rebuilding team.
If you want to see positives on that 5M penalty, at least it will push our management to load the roster with some extra cheaper ELCs, which will fasten up the youth movement.
Also, the roster will be worse, because the new wave of kids are still on a learning process. And we will finally drop on the bottom3 of the league and will get the highest probablities to win those 2019, 2020 or 2021 draft lotteries.
We are trending up proably near of that 2020-21 season. That could also be a lockout season.