Is there any concern for the Leafs' lack of toughness heading into playoffs?

egd27

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Being physical, tough, intimidating.

I'll agree that intimidation isn't that important anymore, but strongly disagree that physicality and toughness (as defined a few posts ago) don't play a huge factor through 4 rounds of playoffs.
 

weems

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I'll agree that intimidation isn't that important anymore, but strongly disagree that physicality and toughness (as defined a few posts ago) don't play a huge factor through 4 rounds of playoffs.

Oh it still has its place and in a ideal world if you had two very similar players I'd always take the bigger, more physical player but I just dont think its nearly as important as it used to be where the rules allowed for that play style to thrive.
 

ShaneFalco

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Need this guy

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GoonieFace

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Yet as soon as Babcock made the toughest player on the team a healthy scratch the team began to play considerably better hockey.....

I don't think the two things are at all related to each other. I mean scratching a guy who played 8 minutes a game will hardly make the team play better.
 

Menzinger

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I can’t help but think this fixation on toughness stems from this strange idealization of the Bruins. Who quite frankly have looked much less effective than smaller and faster teams like the Hawks and Pens the past few years (or even the Bolts this season).

Not to mention, the success the Bruins have achieved is likely due as @Nithoniniel has suggested is due to their excellent puck possession players (ie Bergeron, the nest shutdown centre in the league) than any sort of intimidation factor....
 

Mess

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If Leafs had a Wendel Clark right now we could have another 1993 and 1994 type runs again, but this time with a happy ending.
 

Menzinger

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I don't think the two things are at all related to each other. I mean scratching a guy who played 8 minutes a game will hardly make the team play better.

Martin was a black hole with the puck, and often only got 5ish min of icetime. Was a waste of a roster spot.

Him being a scratch opened the door for Kapanen to get a regular spot. Even Leivo is considerably better as he can at least play at both ends of the ice.
 

Menzinger

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I'd say our only legitimately soft player is Gardiner, everyone else is quite happy to play a physical game, even if they aren't big hitters. We're also basically dead average in the league in terms of hits - even when Martin and Borgman don't play, we've got some solid hitters in Komarov, Polak and Kadri, and Hyman, Hainsey and Marleau throw some decent hits too.

We're not overly physical, but the same goes for a tonne of teams now. I think we'll be fine, it's really only Gardiner who ever bails on plays instead of taking a hit, everyone else happily engages in physical battles.

A fair point. Many of the so called “soft” players on the team will fight for pucks and engage when needed.

This ain’t a problem for the team.
 
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Pittsburgh played two heavier western conference teams the past 2 cups.

Combined both finals

Pitt 117 high danger chances
Sj/Nash 84 high danger chances

In the final 3 games of the Nashville series Pittsburgh had 35 high danger chances to only 19 from Nashville.

In the final 3 games of the Sharks series Pittsburgh had 36 high danger chances to only 24 from SJ.

Are we trying to pretend Pittsburgh wasn’t a tough team in the playoffs? They had the 2nd most number of post season fights at 4. While 4 would be what you might get in a game in the 80s, by today’s post season that’s almost leading the pack:







Our Leafs would be good at sending a sternly worded letter to the aggressor.
 

Pookie

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Yet as soon as Babcock made the toughest player on the team a healthy scratch the team began to play considerably better hockey.....

Really? Missed the part where we played the majority of the season outside of a playoff spot.
 

Gary Nylund

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Really? Missed the part where we played the majority of the season outside of a playoff spot.

The post you're responding to makes no mention of being or not being in a playoff spot. Reading comprehension, it's a thing.

P.S. His post also makes a valid point, why don't you give it another try. Good luck!
 
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weems

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Are we trying to pretend Pittsburgh wasn’t a tough team in the playoffs? They had the 2nd most number of post season fights at 4. While 4 would be what you might get in a game in the 80s, by today’s post season that’s almost leading the pack:







Our Leafs would be good at sending a sternly worded letter to the aggressor.


Evgeni Malkin and Carl Hagelin?

Oh ya those guys are prime examples of "tough players" because they prolly got in what their 2nd to 3rd career fight?

The Pens werent considered big or tough by anyone.

They were unanimously praised for their incredible team speed and skill.

If Kapanen, Kadri and say Dermott get into fights this playoffs does that all the sudden make us a tough team?
 
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GoonieFace

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Martin was a black hole with the puck, and often only got 5ish min of icetime. Was a waste of a roster spot.

Him being a scratch opened the door for Kapanen to get a regular spot. Even Leivo is considerably better as he can at least play at both ends of the ice.


:huh: Leivo is hardly adept defensively, and the rest of the ice is up in the air as well. The guy simply cant skate well enough.
 

Spirit of 67

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Good post, this would be what I'm talking about when I say some posters are conflating the meaning of tough and physical assault, no mention of face punching or physical aggression.

Durable, resilient, well built all ingredients you need to win the cup. So with that said and now that tough has been clearly defined are we resilient? Durable? Made to last?
Looks like it. We've been pretty healthy for 2 years now.
I guess we'll see if we go deep just how tough we really are.
 

Menzinger

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Really? Missed the part where we played the majority of the season outside of a playoff spot.

You honestly don’t think the leafs have been better since the lineup change?

I mean the extended slump the team had been in more or less ended soon after.

Babcock certainly seems to think the team is much better since he’s shown no signs of considering to reverse his decision. Martin remains stapled to the press box.
 

Stephen

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Fricken right bud, Matthews needs to punch a skull at some point or at least face wash someone or grab them and swing them around. Crosby absolutely fought a few times and he did absolutely lose it as well. People really stopped messing with him.

Look at Kadri, very few also mess with him because they know he will hunt you down later and flip you on your face like he did Ovi.

Matthews Nylander and even Marner at some point when they fill out 22-23, will have to find some edge in them to help us win. Its a powerful combo to have and I sort of worry that Matthews is a little too soft for his size. I have seen guys rough him up a few times now and its getting more frequent.

Yeah, in a chippy series, Matthews would need to create some space for himself. If there's trouble with Marchand, give him something to cry about.
 

ErnieLeafs

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Those are good to very good players that I doubt anyone on here would have any problem adding.

Adding good heavy players is one thing. Adding in low talented players that bring some intangibles is a totally different story.

I'm not even advocating having a small soft team just that the game and rules are different nowadays and those things that were important a handfull of years ago dont hold as much value in todays game.

And nobody should be advocating for goons. Let's not pretend Matt Martin can't take a shift, either. He can still play, but I don't want him in over Kapanen. I would, however, have him in over Leivo. Leivo is pretty useless, and brings little to the table. At least Martin brings a physical element. I would run with Komarov - Pleks - Kapanen as my 4th line when everyone is healthy, but my first sub is Martin, not Leivo.
 
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GoonieFace

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And nobody should be advocating for goons. Let's not pretend Matt Martin can't take a shift, either. He can still play, but I don't want him in over Kapanen. I would, however, have him in over Leivo. Leivo is pretty useless, and brings little to the table. At least Marrin brings a physical element. I would run with Komarov - Pleks - Kapanen as my 4th line when everyone is healthy, but my first sub is Martin, not Leivo.

Pretty much sums it up.
 

ErnieLeafs

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Pittsburgh played two heavier western conference teams the past 2 cups.

Combined both finals

Pitt 117 high danger chances
Sj/Nash 84 high danger chances

In the final 3 games of the Nashville series Pittsburgh had 35 high danger chances to only 19 from Nashville.

In the final 3 games of the Sharks series Pittsburgh had 36 high danger chances to only 24 from SJ.

Pittsburgh is the only team in the league with three legitimate superstars, and their whole claim to fame is that. They're a complete outlier. Pretty hard to use them as the main example in any argument. Most teams (nobody else) is built like them. Winnipeg is getting there with Schief/Wheeler/Laine/Ehlers, but in reality, Pittsburgh is like a superteam we haven't seen in a lot of years.
 

weems

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Pittsburgh is the only team in the league with three legitimate superstars, and their whole claim to fame is that. They're a complete outlier. Pretty hard to use them as the main example in any argument. Most teams (nobody else) is built like them. Winnipeg is getting there with Schief/Wheeler/Laine/Ehlers, but in reality, Pittsburgh is like a superteam we haven't seen in a lot of years.

Maybe but again this season many of the really good teams are built on the same principles.
Speed, skill and depth.
Maybe we'll never be as good as Pittsburgh but I'm happy that we're being built around speed and skill.
The taking out of any slashing is basically opening the floodgates for speed and skill to thrive.

Could we use more intensity and physicality? Yep but I also dont think were so soft that its going to limit our ability to win if we show up and skate.
 

Bluelines

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Imagine our team with Simmonds or Tkachuk on it. Changes the whole dynamic. People arguing against adding a rugged element include the same group who bellyached when we got dominated by Boston a few weeks ago, physically, might I add, and led the charge on the "there's no way we can win a playoff round against them!" Mantra.

Agreed, we can add a power forward type with skill. Problem is those type of players are rare-ish ... Simmonds is a great example of that type of player. Ovie is another guy who is a physical type with skill. Tkachuk is a dirt bag that I would love to have on the Leafs and from what I've read his little brother is everything his big brother is and more skill.
 

thewave

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And nobody should be advocating for goons. Let's not pretend Matt Martin can't take a shift, either. He can still play, but I don't want him in over Kapanen. I would, however, have him in over Leivo. Leivo is pretty useless, and brings little to the table. At least Martin brings a physical element. I would run with Komarov - Pleks - Kapanen as my 4th line when everyone is healthy, but my first sub is Martin, not Leivo.

Leivo is better than Martin. When Martin is out there they just avoid getting hit by him. When Leivo is out there they need to watch for a pass and a pretty wicked shot.

Leivo is much better than Martin especially considering every time you see him he hasn't played in a month and still manages to get by.
 

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