Is the 1996 Canadian World Cup team the most talented team ever on paper?

[Bloomfield*]

Yeah they lost the World Cup, but if you just look at the roster selection:

D Rob Blake
F Rod Brind'Amour
G Martin Brodeur
D Paul Coffey
D Sylvain Côté
F Vincent Damphousse
D Éric Desjardins
F Theoren Fleury
D Adam Foote
F Adam Graves
F Wayne Gretzky
G Curtis Joseph
D Ed Jovanovski
F Claude Lemieux
F Trevor Linden
F Eric Lindros
F Mark Messier
D Scott Niedermayer
D Lyle Odelein
F Keith Primeau
G Bill Ranford
F Joe Sakic
F Brendan Shanahan
D Scott Stevens
F Pat Verbeek
F Steve Yzerman


sorry was meant to post this on history forum.

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[tony d]

It was pretty talented but I like the 1987 Canada Cup team:

RW Glenn Anderson
D Ray Bourque
D Paul Coffey
D Doug Crossman
RW Kevin Dineen
G Grant Fuhr
RW Mike Gartner
C Doug Gilmour
LW Michel Goulet
C Wayne Gretzky
D Craig Hartsburg
C Dale Hawerchuk
G Ron Hextall
G Kelly Hrudey
RW Claude Lemieux
C Mario Lemieux
F Mark Messier
D Larry Murphy
D James Patrick
LW Brian Propp
D Normand Rochefort
C Brent Sutter
RW Rick Tocchet

 

[popo]

Keep in mind that '96 team is missing Patrick Roy, Mario Lemieux, and Ray Bourque. Another name that stands out as lacking from the list is Mark Recchi. Paul Kariya possibly, but he was still quite young at the time.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

Keep in mind that '96 team is missing Patrick Roy, Mario Lemieux, and Ray Bourque. Another name that stands out as lacking from the list is Mark Recchi. Paul Kariya possibly, but he was still quite young at the time.

From what I remember too, that teams lines were put together in a weird way

Linden-Gretzky-Damphousse
Graves-Messier-C.Lemieux
Shanahan-Sakic-Lindros
Yzerman-Brind'Amour-Fleury

Ex: Primeau,Verbeek

It's crazy how their 3rd and 4th line were their best, and I read in Fleury's book that his line barely saw the ice despite being the 2nd strongest on paper. As a US fan I fell that we were very lucky to win that tournament, with a prime Mario,Bourque, and Roy they would have ran everyone over.

 

[86Habs]

Yeah they lost the World Cup, but if you just look at the roster selection:

D Rob Blake
F Rod Brind'Amour
G Martin Brodeur
D Paul Coffey
D Sylvain Côté
F Vincent Damphousse
D Éric Desjardins
F Theoren Fleury
D Adam Foote
F Adam Graves
F Wayne Gretzky
G Curtis Joseph
D Ed Jovanovski
F Claude Lemieux
F Trevor Linden
F Eric Lindros
F Mark Messier
D Scott Niedermayer
D Lyle Odelein
F Keith Primeau
G Bill Ranford
F Joe Sakic
F Brendan Shanahan
D Scott Stevens
F Pat Verbeek
F Steve Yzerman


sorry was meant to post this on history forum.

The 1976 Canada Cup team gets my vote for the best ever team on paper (and they were pretty good on the ice too). There are only a handful of players on that team that aren't in the HHOF. The 1996 team was kind of "meh" in my opinion. No Mario, Bourque, Roy or Kariya. Weird selections like Odelein, Cote, Verbeek, and Graves. The Americans had a better team on paper that year, imo.

 

[arrbez]

The top half of the 1981 Canada Cup roster was pretty spectacular on paper as well.

Gretzky, Lafleur, Dionne, Bossy, Trottier, Perreault, Bourque, Potvin, Robinson

 

[Conspiracy Theorist]

The top half of the 1981 Canada Cup roster was pretty spectacular on paper as well.

Gretzky, Lafleur, Dionne, Bossy, Trottier, Perreault, Bourque, Potvin, Robinson

How did they get swept by the Russians? They had lost to US college students the year before.

 

[CharlestownChiefsESC]

How did they get swept by the Russians? They had lost to US college students the year before.

1981 was a single game final as opposed to best of in 1976. Had it been best of 3 you never know what would have happened. You figure Canada comes out pissed in game 2 and wins setting up a Game 3. That 81 team was interesting you had Gretz and the isles star but the rest of the team was guys from the 70's who were on their last legs. The new guard (a.la Messier) also wasn't proven yet.

 

[Zine]

How did they get swept by the Russians? They had lost to US college students the year before.

1981 was a single game final as opposed to best of in 1976. Had it been best of 3 you never know what would have happened. You figure Canada comes out pissed in game 2 and wins setting up a Game 3. That 81 team was interesting you had Gretz and the isles star but the rest of the team was guys from the 70's who were on their last legs. The new guard (a.la Messier) also wasn't proven yet.

The more appropriate question is how the **** did USA beat USSR in 1980.
Not only did USSR win the 1981 CC, they took 2 out of 3 games against Canada's best in '79....out-scoring them 9-0 from the middle of 2nd period of game 2 onwards.

 

[Big Phil]

No, the 1996 team is not the most talented team on paper. They were only slightly more talented on paper than the Americans of that year. Lots of Canadian teams were better on paper. 1976 is the clear winner here, 1987, 2002, 2010, 2014, etc.

While the names are sexy there are lots who are not in their prime. Gretzky, Messier and Coffey were not in their prime, not even close. Still good, but it looks better than it really is.

We were missing Mario, Roy, Bourque, Kariya, MacInnis and then even Francis was injured who was travelling with the team. That's a lot of talent right there. Even with those guys not on the team you had weird picks. Odelein and Cote on defense? Even though Pronger was young I don't know why he wasn't there. Duchesne would have been a better pick too although I guess him being on the lowly Sens that year didn't help. Even Larry Murphy would have been an improvement.

The problem with the 1996 team was speed. They couldn't skate as fast as the Americans.

 

[Hanji]

Canada's 1998 OG goaltending and defense might have been the best they've ever had. Insane on paper.

Roy, Brodeur, Joseph, Bourque, Pronger, Blake, Stevens, MacInnis, Desjardins, Foote.

 

[Big Phil]

Canada's 1998 OG goaltending and defense might have been the best they've ever had. Insane on paper.

Roy, Brodeur, Joseph, Bourque, Pronger, Blake, Stevens, MacInnis, Desjardins, Foote.

It was pretty insane on paper. I guess it is worth pointing out that Bourque, Stevens and MacInnis were older by then. Pronger was pretty close to the Pronger we would know. But the thing was, the defense seemed to have a hard time adjusting to the big ice. Nowadays we are fine with this because we've played in the big ice enough times but in 1998 we came unprepared. Defensively we were fine though, just the offense from the defense didn't translate as good as you might think with this line up. We needed someone like Niedermayer who could rush the puck up, or Coffey if he was a couple years younger.

Either way it didn't matter, neither of those points really killed us. It was the forward crops that did.

 

[Talisman]

It was pretty insane on paper. I guess it is worth pointing out that Bourque, Stevens and MacInnis were older by then. Pronger was pretty close to the Pronger we would know. But the thing was, the defense seemed to have a hard time adjusting to the big ice. Nowadays we are fine with this because we've played in the big ice enough times but in 1998 we came unprepared. Defensively we were fine though, just the offense from the defense didn't translate as good as you might think with this line up. We needed someone like Niedermayer who could rush the puck up, or Coffey if he was a couple years younger.

Either way it didn't matter, neither of those points really killed us. It was the forward crops that did.

i just noticed that this tournament was the first time in ray bourques career that he skated on big ice?. if i remember correct

 

[Big Phil]

i just noticed that this tournament was the first time in ray bourques career that he skated on big ice?. if i remember correct

You might be right. Bourque never played in a World Junior, he never played in the World Championships (Boston never missed the playoffs until 1997 though) and he was just in Canada Cups on NHL surface. So yeah, I think it was an adjustment which explains why Canada's defense didn't stand out like you thought they would. On the NHL ice that defense looks much better.

 

[Atas2000]

Yeah they lost the World Cup, but if you just look at the roster selection:

D Rob Blake
F Rod Brind'Amour
G Martin Brodeur
D Paul Coffey
D Sylvain Côté
F Vincent Damphousse
D Éric Desjardins
F Theoren Fleury
D Adam Foote
F Adam Graves
F Wayne Gretzky
G Curtis Joseph
D Ed Jovanovski
F Claude Lemieux
F Trevor Linden
F Eric Lindros
F Mark Messier
D Scott Niedermayer
D Lyle Odelein
F Keith Primeau
G Bill Ranford
F Joe Sakic
F Brendan Shanahan
D Scott Stevens
F Pat Verbeek
F Steve Yzerman


sorry was meant to post this on history forum.

No, not close to some soviet teams of old talent wise.

 

[JackSlater]

The 1976 team was comfortably more talented on paper. Add in Lemieux (refused) Bourque (refused) Roy (not asked/opted for surgery) Kariya (injured) MacInnis (injured) and Francis (injured I think) and you have a better argument, though it would still probably be 1976.

 

[Hollywood3]

1976 was the best. The defence alone made it so:

Orr
Park
Potvin
Robinson
Savard
Lapointe
Watson

 

[JackSlater]

1976 was the best. The defence alone made it so:

Orr
Park
Potvin
Robinson
Savard
Lapointe
Watson

It is the strongest defence ever, but to be fair Park was injured and didn't play.

 

[BLNY]

1987 for me.

 

[Big Phil]

The 1976 team was comfortably more talented on paper. Add in Lemieux (refused) Bourque (refused) Roy (not asked/opted for surgery) Kariya (injured) MacInnis (injured) and Francis (injured I think) and you have a better argument, though it would still probably be 1976.

Yes with those additions 1996 looks a lot sexier. Because you'd take off guys like Primeau, Verbeek, Linden, etc. Possibly Graves as well and I was never a fan of Claude Lemieux on that team. That being said, how can it not be 1976 all-time? Can you imagine this team playing a full year together? This team just played 8 games together with some practices prior to it. Other than 1972 Canada wasn't familiar playing with each other.

Goal:
Vachon, Cheevers, Resch

Defense:
Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Watson, Vadnais (didn't play)

Forward:
Lafleur, Clarke, Hull, Perreault, Dionne, Sittler, McDonald, P. Mahovlich, Esposito, Shutt, Martin, Barber, Leach, Gainey, Gare

You have two HHOFers in net, that's good. But that is actually your weakest link on paper. That defense is scary. Up front it is hard to imagine Rene Robert was cut and they couldn't find room for Ratelle, Mikita or Gilbert anymore, who all had fine years. Pronovost was cut as well. They were cutting 100 point guys. Insane.

I would never get bored finding line combinations for that team. It would be like counting sheep going to sleep.

 

[JackSlater]

Yes with those additions 1996 looks a lot sexier. Because you'd take off guys like Primeau, Verbeek, Linden, etc. Possibly Graves as well and I was never a fan of Claude Lemieux on that team. That being said, how can it not be 1976 all-time? Can you imagine this team playing a full year together? This team just played 8 games together with some practices prior to it. Other than 1972 Canada wasn't familiar playing with each other.

Goal:
Vachon, Cheevers, Resch

Defense:
Orr, Potvin, Robinson, Savard, Lapointe, Watson, Vadnais (didn't play)

Forward:
Lafleur, Clarke, Hull, Perreault, Dionne, Sittler, McDonald, P. Mahovlich, Esposito, Shutt, Martin, Barber, Leach, Gainey, Gare

You have two HHOFers in net, that's good. But that is actually your weakest link on paper. That defense is scary. Up front it is hard to imagine Rene Robert was cut and they couldn't find room for Ratelle, Mikita or Gilbert anymore, who all had fine years. Pronovost was cut as well. They were cutting 100 point guys. Insane.

I would never get bored finding line combinations for that team. It would be like counting sheep going to sleep.

Yes it's the best mixture of depth and top end talent out there. No team has a top three defence that matches 76 Orr/Robinson/Potvin, and at forward the 76 versions of Clarke/Lafleur/Dionne/Perreault/Hull are enough to carry a team, plus the other forwards were great complements.

 

[Big Phil]

Yes it's the best mixture of depth and top end talent out there. No team has a top three defence that matches 76 Orr/Robinson/Potvin, and at forward the 76 versions of Clarke/Lafleur/Dionne/Perreault/Hull are enough to carry a team, plus the other forwards were great complements.

I did a comparison once with the 1987 team, another one good on paper. Obviously there was a prime Gretzky and Lemieux there, but their supporting cast - while still excellent - wasn't as good as 1976 up front. Either way, the defense in 1976 trumps them, the goaltending is more or less even with Vachon vs. Fuhr, but it is the forward depth in 1976 that wins the day.

I figure the depth in 1987 goes like this: Gretzky, Lemieux, Messier, Hawerchuk, Goulet, Anderson, Gilmour, Gartner, Propp, Sutter, Tocchet, C. Lemieux, Dineen

1976 might be like this: Clarke, Lafleur, Hull, Perreault, Dionne, Sittler, Barber, P. Mahovlich, Esposito, Leach, McDonald, Shutt, Gainey, Martin, Gare

When you look at, say, the 8th or 9th best players on the team which would fill 3 lines you have to figure 1976 had that edge. If not, it is no worse than even and 1976 has a much better 4th line. But as it stands the 1976 defense makes the difference anyway.

 

[VMBM]

How did they get swept by the Russians? They had lost to US college students the year before.

Because the Soviet team had changed fairly radically and were in much better form in the Fall of '81 than in the 1979-80 season, even though it's only 1,5 years later.

And anything can happen in one game; the game isn't called Miracle On Ice for nothing.