Is Sawchuk Losing His Status as the Greatest Goalie Of All Time?

Cake or Death

Guest
Based on my research, he is.

Among other reasons, Hall is the only man to be voted the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times.

Can't you easily look at this a lot of ways, if you wanted? Hasek was voted first all-star 6 times, but had to beat a heck of a lot more goalies than Hall in doing so. Hasek, if memory serves me correctly, is the only goalie to win the Hart twice. He's got 6 Vezinas. And because of communism, Hasek didn't even play in North America till he had already completed 10 seasons in Czech Elite.

Essentially, Hasek garnered one fewer 1st team all star nods, against a lot more competition, playing 5 or 6 fewer seasons than Hall, while winning twice as many Vezinas and being the only goalie in NHL history to win the Hart trophy twice.

Couldn't you as easily argue all those points as you could Hall's 7 first team all stars?
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Can't you easily look at this a lot of ways, if you wanted? Hasek was voted first all-star 6 times, but had to beat a heck of a lot more goalies than Hall in doing so. Hasek, if memory serves me correctly, is the only goalie to win the Hart twice. He's got 6 Vezinas. And because of communism, Hasek didn't even play in North America till he had already completed 10 seasons in Czech Elite.

Essentially, Hasek garnered one fewer 1st team all star nods, against a lot more competition, playing 5 or 6 fewer seasons than Hall, while winning twice as many Vezinas and being the only goalie in NHL history to win the Hart trophy twice.

Couldn't you as easily argue all those points as you could Hall's 7 first team all stars?

True but, you also have to consider Hall's 4 second team selections and Conn Smythe.

I want to dissect one of your comments:

Hasek was voted first all-star 6 times, but had to beat a heck of a lot more goalies than Hall in doing so.

What do you mean by that? I think you mean that there are 30 number 1 goalies in the NHL today compared 6 in Hall's prime. Is that correct?

If it is, here is how I see it: Hall was voted the best goalie in the NHL 7 times. The fact that there were only the 6 best goalies in the world playing at the time is no different than the 30 best goalies in the world playing today. #24 - 30 of today would simply not be good enough to play in the NHL in the 60s.

Let's just say we have a list of the top 100 goalies on the planet today. Let's also say we have a list of the top 100 goalies on the planet from 1960. In the 60s, Hall was the best in the world no matter how many goalies were on the list. In the 90s, Hasek was the best in the world no matter how many goalies were on the list.

Here is the key point: Hall was the best goalie in the world 7 times. He was NOT only up against the other 5 starters in the league, he was up against every goalie that wanted to play in the NHL. The goalies that were not in the NHL were NOT GOOD ENOUGH to be there. So, having 30 teams and allowing 24 more goalies in the league would not have changed anything. Hall was still the best in the world, adding 24 guys who were not the best in the world would have made no difference at all.

If the first team all star selection was a random draw, you would be exactly right, 1/30 is harder to win than 1/6. But, because it is completely based on skill and talent, the number of goalies makes no difference at all. The best is still the best.

That is how I see it.
 

Cake or Death

Guest
Fair enough. My main driving point was, and I think you well illustrated it, is that we all have our opinions on these matters skewed by our own perceptions and the criteria we feel is most important.

Essentially, I think most of us can arm ourselves quite adeptly to make a good argument one day for Plante, the next day for Hall, the next for Hasek, the next for Roy, etc. They'd all be quite viable cases, too. Ultimately, while these topics are fun to debate, I don't ever think there is a real conclusive answer when, in fact, you look at those players and realize that there is, at best, a razor thin difference between the lot of them, and that they ALL achieved monumental successes which can make a great case for any of them.

Of the guys I've personally seen, I'll go with Roy. As a Ranger fan, it simply boils down to this: in 1986, Roy single-handedly almost made me kill my cat and smash my TV set when he eliminated the Rangers. To me, that '86 run still stands as the most remarkable display of goaltending I've ever seen, and I don't think I've ever yelled and cursed so much in my life as I did in that round three series between the Habs and Rangers.
 

Bear of Bad News

Your Third or Fourth Favorite HFBoards Admin
Sep 27, 2005
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26,529
If it is, here is how I see it: Hall was voted the best goalie in the NHL 7 times. The fact that there were only the 6 best goalies in the world playing at the time is no different than the 30 best goalies in the world playing today. #24 - 30 of today would simply not be good enough to play in the NHL in the 60s.

True. On the other hand, the hockey-playing population is far larger today than it was in Hall's time.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
True. On the other hand, the hockey-playing population is far larger today than it was in Hall's time.

True but I file that into the same evolutionary argument as better equipment or better training. I don't blame goaltenders like Hall for how many people on the planet didn't play hockey during their era.
 

EagleBelfour

Registered User
Jun 7, 2005
7,467
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ehsl.proboards32.com
Let's just say we have a list of the top 100 goalies on the planet today. Let's also say we have a list of the top 100 goalies on the planet from 1960. In the 60s, Hall was the best in the world no matter how many goalies were on the list. In the 90s, Hasek was the best in the world no matter how many goalies were on the list.

Jim Carey, Jose Theodore, Olaf Kolzig, Ron Hextall, John Vanbiesbrouck and Pete Peeters, among numerous other, won the Vezina award as the BEST GOALTENDER in the world. Does that mean they were top-6 goaltenders in the world? At the time they won their award? Yes. Career wise? Not even close. I know this isn't the all-star selection, as I don't have the results of the voting, however, the main point is the same: in a 30 teams league, some goaltenders were able to steal awards from the best one due to an awesome year. Does these guys would of played in the NHL in the 50's and 60's? Not a chance! They wouldn't of been close to be in the NHL. When Hall or any other goaltenders from this era won an award, they had to compete against 5 other goaltenders, not 29. In the 50's and 60's, the 6 best goaltenders YEAR AFTER YEAR AND ON A CONSTANT BASIS was playing in the NHL and not the 6 best goaltenders OF THAT PARTICULAR YEAR. They would of definitely lost a couple of vezinas and all-star selection due of this fact.
 

Cake or Death

Guest
True but I file that into the same evolutionary argument as better equipment or better training. I don't blame goaltenders like Hall for how many people on the planet didn't play hockey during their era.

By the same token, you also don't seem to credit players who are playing in an era where players are drawn from a vastly larger talent pool. When you look at the past, it's essentially entirely Canadian goalies. You look at the 40 goalies who played 30 or more games this past season and 43 percent of them are from Europe: Kiprusoff, Hasek, Lundqvist, Lehtonen, Budaj, Holmqvist, Vokoun, Toskala, Khabibulin, Nabokov, Norrena, Backstrom, Kolzig, Huet, Aebischer, Tellqvist, Niittymaki. Not one of those guys is likely in the NHL back in the day.

So while you are right to say, "I don't blame goaltenders like Hall for how many people on the planet didn't play hockey during their era," you also can't hold it against someone like Hasek who has been the best in the league 6 times against the best goalies in the world, not just Canada. It works both ways IMO.
 

pitseleh

Registered User
Jul 30, 2005
19,164
2,612
Vancouver
Jim Carey, Jose Theodore, Olaf Kolzig, Ron Hextall, John Vanbiesbrouck and Pete Peeters, among numerous other, won the Vezina award as the BEST GOALTENDER in the world. Does that mean they were top-6 goaltenders in the world? At the time they won their award? Yes. Career wise? Not even close. I know this isn't the all-star selection, as I don't have the results of the voting, however, the main point is the same: in a 30 teams league, some goaltenders were able to steal awards from the best one due to an awesome year. Does these guys would of played in the NHL in the 50's and 60's? Not a chance! They wouldn't of been close to be in the NHL. When Hall or any other goaltenders from this era won an award, they had to compete against 5 other goaltenders, not 29. In the 50's and 60's, the 6 best goaltenders YEAR AFTER YEAR AND ON A CONSTANT BASIS was playing in the NHL and not the 6 best goaltenders OF THAT PARTICULAR YEAR. They would of definitely lost a couple of vezinas and all-star selection due of this fact.

I agree, that's the main problem with the assumption. If there is a race that involves 5 of the top runners in the world and a race that involves the top 30 runners in the world, it's not a given that the top-5 will win every race.

So while you are right to say, "I don't blame goaltenders like Hall for how many people on the planet didn't play hockey during their era," you also can't hold it against someone like Hasek who has been the best in the league 6 times against the best goalies in the world, not just Canada. It works both ways IMO.

The problem is that will continue to perpetuate. In 50 years, if India or China become huge hockey nations, then we'll be drawing from an even larger talent pool and what people do now will be insignificant.

I think the issue comes up because Ogopogo's system is his measure of the greatest NHL careers and not the best players ever. The problem is, without having seen them all play, there is no really definitive way of ranking players in a list the greatest of all time, even if we draw upon second hand sources.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
Jim Carey, Jose Theodore, Olaf Kolzig, Ron Hextall, John Vanbiesbrouck and Pete Peeters, among numerous other, won the Vezina award as the BEST GOALTENDER in the world. Does that mean they were top-6 goaltenders in the world? At the time they won their award? Yes. Career wise? Not even close. I know this isn't the all-star selection, as I don't have the results of the voting, however, the main point is the same: in a 30 teams league, some goaltenders were able to steal awards from the best one due to an awesome year. Does these guys would of played in the NHL in the 50's and 60's? Not a chance! They wouldn't of been close to be in the NHL. When Hall or any other goaltenders from this era won an award, they had to compete against 5 other goaltenders, not 29. In the 50's and 60's, the 6 best goaltenders YEAR AFTER YEAR AND ON A CONSTANT BASIS was playing in the NHL and not the 6 best goaltenders OF THAT PARTICULAR YEAR. They would of definitely lost a couple of vezinas and all-star selection due of this fact.

The best goalie in the NHL in any given year is the best goalie in the NHL. You present an interesting thought but, I think that is splitting hairs a little too fine.
 

Ogopogo*

Guest
By the same token, you also don't seem to credit players who are playing in an era where players are drawn from a vastly larger talent pool. When you look at the past, it's essentially entirely Canadian goalies. You look at the 40 goalies who played 30 or more games this past season and 43 percent of them are from Europe: Kiprusoff, Hasek, Lundqvist, Lehtonen, Budaj, Holmqvist, Vokoun, Toskala, Khabibulin, Nabokov, Norrena, Backstrom, Kolzig, Huet, Aebischer, Tellqvist, Niittymaki. Not one of those guys is likely in the NHL back in the day.

So while you are right to say, "I don't blame goaltenders like Hall for how many people on the planet didn't play hockey during their era," you also can't hold it against someone like Hasek who has been the best in the league 6 times against the best goalies in the world, not just Canada. It works both ways IMO.

IMO, that is splitting hairs a little too fine. The best goalie in the NHL is the best goalie in the NHL - no matter what year it is or how many goalies from Finland there are. That is my feeling on it but, some may feel differently.
 

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