Is Sawchuk Losing His Status as the Greatest Goalie Of All Time?

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

How many Vezina's did Roy win while Brodeur and Hasek were in the league?

How many did Brodeur win before Roy and Hasek(for the first time) retired? Zero I believe is the total.

Also overtime record you can say is a flawed stat because it isnt just about the goalie, how is a game 7 record any different? You can just as easily turn around and say Roy's teams wouldnt have ever gotten around to playing a game 7 if not for his heroic play allowing his team one last chance which they blew?

For all their stacked teams and great players and leaders the Avs often didnt show up to play for entire series at a time and let Roy win it for them.

 

[meehan]

How many Vezina's did Roy win while Brodeur and Hasek were in the league?

How many did Brodeur win before Roy and Hasek(for the first time) retired? Zero I believe is the total.

Actually Brodeur won his first Vezina during Roy's last year (which actually was a statistically good year for Roy), and the following year he won it again and Hasek was back in the league. Obviously, neither were in their "prime" (though Hasek doesn't exactly look old right now), however, if Hasek didn't exist Brodeur would have 5 Vezinas right now, while Roy would still only have 3.

Also overtime record you can say is a flawed stat because it isnt just about the goalie, how is a game 7 record any different? You can just as easily turn around and say Roy's teams wouldnt have ever gotten around to playing a game 7 if not for his heroic play allowing his team one last chance which they blew?

Obviously win/loss records don't depend only on the goalie. However, game 7 performance to me holds more weight than any other game in the series. I mean, whats the question everyone asks, "who is the guy you want in net for one game". Well that's the one game.

For all their stacked teams and great players and leaders the Avs often didnt show up to play for entire series at a time and let Roy win it for them.

Yeah I get it, Roy won some big games; but so did Hasek and Brodeur.

 

[19nazzy]

Roy is the ultimate playoff performer.

How many Conn Smythes do Hasek and Brodeur have? Who is the only player to have 3?

 

[Murphy]

Somebody here has to know. How many game sevens did Roy lose? Seems to me it's up there.

 

[FissionFire]

I still think Sawchuk was the most dominating when he was in his prime, followed closely by Hasek. Sawchuk had a couple playoff runs that were simply astounding.

 

[NOTENOUGHJTCGOALS]

Actually Brodeur won his first Vezina during Roy's last year (which actually was a statistically good year for Roy), and the following year he won it again and Hasek was back in the league. Obviously, neither were in their "prime" (though Hasek doesn't exactly look old right now), however, if Hasek didn't exist Brodeur would have 5 Vezinas right now, while Roy would still only have 3.

Roy retired after 2002 for me but yeah he does have that one I overlooked. And if Theodore didnt exist Roy would have another Vezina too.

Obviously win/loss records don't depend only on the goalie. However, game 7 performance to me holds more weight than any other game in the series. I mean, whats the question everyone asks, "who is the guy you want in net for one game". Well that's the one game.

I think the problem is that if a great goalie carries an inferior team to game 7 and then loses a few times in his career, its some huge black mark on his record rather than the goalie who bows out in 5 or 6 games and doesnt even get to game 7. For every game 7 Roy lost if he lost it in 6 games instead is he magically a better goalie?

 

[Ogopogo*]

Roy retired after 2002 for me but yeah he does have that one I overlooked. And if Theodore didnt exist Roy would have another Vezina too.

That's a dumb argument. What if all NHL goalies were really peewees - except for Roy? Then he would have won a Vezina every year he played.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

That's a dumb argument. What if all NHL goalies were really peewees - except for Roy? Then he would have won a Vezina every year he played.

Well, that's fine, except that he was responding to the ridiculous argument that Brodeur would have lots of Vezinas if Hasek didn't exist.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Well, that's fine, except that he was responding to the ridiculous argument that Brodeur would have lots of Vezinas if Hasek didn't exist.

I agree, it is a dumb argument no matter who the goalies.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

I agree, it is a dumb argument no matter who the goalies.

Agreed.

 

[meehan]

Well, that's fine, except that he was responding to the ridiculous argument that Brodeur would have lots of Vezinas if Hasek didn't exist.

Actually its more about the lack of Roy's vezinas since Brodeur and Hasek came into the league. Seriously, Roy has only finished second in voting once in that timeframe. Obviously Hasek has dominated in vezinas/all star team selections. However, Brodeur, not Roy, has been second to Hasek during this span.

And again let me state that I do not think Vezinas are the end all be all in determining the best goaltender.

 

[ColoradoSportsFan]

And if Theodore didnt exist Roy would have another Vezina too.

Not to mention a Hart trophy....

 

[arrbez]

Well, that's fine, except that he was responding to the ridiculous argument that Brodeur would have lots of Vezinas if Hasek didn't exist.

I Hasek didn't exist, I believe Brodeur would have 2 more, Belfour would have 1 more, and Chechmanek, Cujo, and Vanbiesbrouck would each have 1. This is just based on who came second in Vezina voting in Hasek's years...

 

[meehan]

Roy retired after 2002 for me but yeah he does have that one I overlooked. And if Theodore didnt exist Roy would have another Vezina too.

Yeah he lost out on one......not multiple times like Brodeur because of Hasek (and if anything thinks I am implying that Hasek wasn't the most deserving of the award, you are mistaken).

I think the problem is that if a great goalie carries an inferior team to game 7 and then loses a few times in his career, its some huge black mark on his record rather than the goalie who bows out in 5 or 6 games and doesnt even get to game 7. For every game 7 Roy lost if he lost it in 6 games instead is he magically a better goalie?

Again, it is not only the goalie who has control of winning and losing. The team in front of you is also playing in that game 7. That said, Roy's save percentage in game 7s is lower than Hasek and Brodeur, and alot of that probably has to do with his abysmal performance in game 7 in 2002 against Detroit.

 

[arrbez]

Not to mention a Hart trophy....

Iginla should have won the Hart to begin with that year

 

[Corto]

Roy is the ultimate playoff performer.

How many Conn Smythes do Hasek and Brodeur have? Who is the only player to have 3?

The Conn Smythe argument will never get old, eh?

And how many competetive teams did Hasek take into the playoffs and how many Broduer and Roy?

 

[19nazzy]

The Conn Smythe argument will never get old, eh?

When 1 player has the most in history and the other 2 have 0, it will never get old

 

[Hasbro]

Well, that's fine, except that he was responding to the ridiculous argument that Brodeur would have lots of Vezinas if Hasek didn't exist.

I have a hard time taking the Vezinas seriously considering Roy was only nominated once in colorado and I think there were about two western conference finalists over about 10 years there.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I have a hard time taking the Vezinas seriously considering Roy was only nominated once in colorado and I think there were about two western conference finalists over about 10 years there.

There is no such thing as being nominated for a Vezina. They simply take the top 3 vote getters and call them the nominees to generate excitement for the awards show. The truth is, the award was decided long ago, they are just dragging it out - much like a reality show.

 

[puckhead103*]

I still think Sawchuk was the most dominating when he was in his prime, followed closely by Hasek. Sawchuk had a couple playoff runs that were simply astounding.

sawchuk dominated in his first five years in the league.....

after that brief retirement from bruins, he was never the same....

by the time he was 40....he was basically washed up........

goalies such hall, and plante and even worsley played well in the 40's....

 

[V-2 Schneider]

A goalie who enters at a normal age, born the same year as Dryden, wins 8+ cups with those Habs.

You mean a goalie like...Wayne Thomas?

The Habs won so much because they also had the best goalie in the game.It's very fashionable to deride what Dryden did, but he was dominating and in over 45+ yrs of hockey watching, still the best G I've ever seen.

 

[Chili]

sawchuk dominated in his first five years in the league.....

after that brief retirement from bruins, he was never the same....

by the time he was 40....he was basically washed up........

goalies such hall, and plante and even worsley played well in the 40's....

Glenn Hall retired before his 40th birthday but Plante & the Gumper did play well after turning that age. And add Johnny Bower.

 

[Pantokrator]

Again, it is not only the goalie who has control of winning and losing.

And yet everyone points to win loss records as if they are soley the result of the goalie. We saw this year the effect a team can have on a goalie...look at Roberto Luongo. He never made the playoffs prior, but suddenly put a decent team in front of him and he does phenomenal. I'm not trying to argue anything about Luongo, just trying to demonstrate how a team effects results. People point to Brodeur's totals like win totals alone account for greatness, but when has he played behind a team as dysfunctional as the Florida Panthers? Not trying to say Brodeur isn't a great goalie, but win totals alone are misleading. Brodeur isn't quite the same playoff goalie without Stevens and Niedermayer, but then again NO goalie would be the same without those two. Since Stevens left, he hasn't made it past the second round of the playoffs.

Sorry for jumping in way late in the thread...

 

[meehan]

People point to Brodeur's totals like win totals alone account for greatness, but when has he played behind a team as dysfunctional as the Florida Panthers? Not trying to say Brodeur isn't a great goalie, but win totals alone are misleading. Brodeur isn't quite the same playoff goalie without Stevens and Niedermayer, but then again NO goalie would be the same without those two. Since Stevens left, he hasn't made it past the second round of the playoffs.

Sorry for jumping in way late in the thread...

Not that I disagree, but how many of the great goalies of all time have played a significant chunk of their career behind a dysfunctional team? Thus, it's unfair to single out Brodeur. Also, though true the Devils haven't gone far in the playoffs since Stevens left, from 1996-1999 on teams WITH Stevens and Niedermayer, the Devils had even worse playoff results than these days, only to follow that up with years of going deep into the playoffs, before coming back down to where they are now. Thus, it's too soon to imply that the Devils will not rebound. And as for Brodeur, despite losing two HOF defensemen, he remains a Vezina calibur goaltender.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Not that I disagree, but how many of the great goalies of all time have played a significant chunk of their career behind a dysfunctional team?

That could be a chicken/egg thing - how many great goaltenders were never seen that way because they spent their entire career behind bad teams.

Remember, it wasn't until recently that goaltenders were rated solely on their goals-against average and how many wins they have (both highly team dependant).