Is Sawchuk Losing His Status as the Greatest Goalie Of All Time?

[meehan]

Yeah, because Grant Fuhr, Billy Smith, Andy Moog, Tom Barrasso, John Vanbiesbrouck and Bill Ranford were just awful.

Would you say any of those goalies are better than Hasek and Brodeur?

 

[Ogopogo*]

Would you say any of those goalies are better than Hasek and Brodeur?

No. But most of them are probably better than every goalie playing today not named Hasek or Brodeur.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Would you say any of those goalies are better than Hasek and Brodeur?

Hard to say. But define "great goalies", because that's the gist of your claim above.

 

[meehan]

No. But most of them are probably better than every goalie playing today not named Hasek or Brodeur.

I think Belfour stacks up very well against those guys. And then there are Kiprusoff and Luongo who look like future hall of famers. I mean Kipper already has more vezinas than Moog and Ranford, and as many as the rest of those goalies.

 

[Barrasso35]

The greatest goalie ever wasn't Sawchuck, Brodeur or Roy... it was Greg Goldberg of the Mighty Ducks.

Of course, it helped that he was coached by the ever-awesome Gordon Bombay.

 

[God Bless Canada]

Not saying either is better than Roy but how many Vezina's has he won since Brodeur and Hasek came into the league? Most of Roy's individual hardware was won when the league didn't have as many great goalies.

Are Vezina's the ultimate sign of goalie greatness? I don't think it is. I don't think the first-team all-star selection is the ultimate sign of goalie greatness, either. I think playoff performance is. And last I checked, Roy had more playoff MVP awards than anyone. Now, that's not the only thing that matters, but it's significant. I think Bill Durnan is an all-time great, but I would rather have Turk Broda, because Broda was better in the playoffs.

I think Roy would be lauded by many as the best ever even if he didn't win a Vezina, simply because he was so good in the playoffs. He had his playoff hiccups, but if you're entering a playoff, he's definitely the guy you want on your team over Brodeur and Hasek. Of all the records he holds, I think the most impressive is that he's hockey's all-time leader in NHL post-season games played, at least for the time being, anyways.

 

[meehan]

Hard to say. But define "great goalies", because that's the gist of your claim above.

My point is that when Roy won his vezinas, his competition were goalies who he is most definately better than. Between him, Roy and Brodeur, it is much closer, and against competition on that level, he has never won a Vezina. In the 9 seasons that those three have all been starters in the league, Hasek has won the Vezina 6 times. Brodeur has come in second to Hasek 3 times. Roy has only been as high as second in voting once during that span.

 

[meehan]

Are Vezina's the ultimate sign of goalie greatness? I don't think it is. I don't think the first-team all-star selection is the ultimate sign of goalie greatness, either. I think playoff performance is. And last I checked, Roy had more playoff MVP awards than anyone. Now, that's not the only thing that matters, but it's significant. I think Bill Durnan is an all-time great, but I would rather have Turk Broda, because Broda was better in the playoffs.

I think Roy would be lauded by many as the best ever even if he didn't win a Vezina, simply because he was so good in the playoffs. He had his playoff hiccups, but if you're entering a playoff, he's definitely the guy you want on your team over Brodeur and Hasek. Of all the records he holds, I think the most impressive is that he's hockey's all-time leader in NHL post-season games played, at least for the time being, anyways.

I agree that Vezina's aren't everything. However, I don't think there is that much of a gap between his playoff career and the other two. Both Hasek and Brodeur have proven more than capable of winning big games; and Hasek carried good (not great) teams fairly deep into the playoffs. And for all the talk about Roy being the guy every wants in net for THE big game, his record is playoff game 7s is mediocre.

 

[19nazzy]

Not saying either is better than Roy but how many Vezina's has he won since Brodeur and Hasek came into the league? Most of Roy's individual hardware was won when the league didn't have as many great goalies.

Roy was a great regular season goalie and played anywhere from 10-20 less regular season games per year than Brodeur.
Roy is the greatest post-season goalie and where he made his name for himself and justifies in my mind having the title of being the greatest of all time.

What I found simply amazing this post-season is that Brodeur coming into the playoffs had played 153 games. Roy had won 151.

 

[19nazzy]

Both Hasek and Brodeur have proven more than capable of winning big games;

More than capable, yes. But not close to the level of Roy.

Hasek carried good (not great) teams fairly deep into the playoffs.

Roy carried 2 good (not great) teams to Stanley Cups in the playoffs.

And for all the talk about Roy being the guy every wants in net for THE big game, his record is playoff game 7s is mediocre.

He has won the most. Including the most important one, Game 7 SCF vs. Martin Brodeur.

 

[meehan]

Roy was a great regular season goalie and played anywhere from 10-20 less regular season games per year than Brodeur.
Roy is the greatest post-season goalie and where he made his name for himself and justifies in my mind having the title of being the greatest of all time.

What I found simply amazing this post-season is that Brodeur coming into the playoffs had played 153 games. Roy had won 151.

Brodeur also a some years left in his career; it probably will be alot closer by then.

 

[meehan]

More than capable, yes. But not close to the level of Roy.


Roy carried 2 good (not great) teams to Stanley Cups in the playoffs.

Both Roy's Canadiens teams were better than any of Hasek's Sabres teams.

He has won the most. Including the most important one, Game 7 SCF vs. Martin Brodeur.

He has also lost the most. 6-7 record in game 7s, 0.907 sv%. Brodeur: 5-3, 0.928 Hasek: 1-2, 0.946. And about memorable performances, how about game 7 Detroit/Colorado in 2002 (which basically was the stanley cup finals that year)? How well did Roy do against Hasek then? I'd say that was a pretty important game 7 that Roy stunk in.

 

[FreeBird]

with all this brodeur talk, i believe sawchuk's greatness as the greatest of them all is being diminished.....

i was born in 1971, so i did not see him play, however by reading books on this goalie, i firmly believe he was the greater one.....

but with brodeur destroying the record books in terms of wins and shutouts, now all experts point to him as the greatest goalie....

i wonder how "great" martin brodeur would have been if he played in high scoring 80's where playing defense was afterthought...

any thoughts...

He was the Best, if he wore the equipment they have today he'd have 400 shutouts for his career.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

He was the Best, if he wore the equipment they have today he'd have 400 shutouts for his career.

See, if you want credibility, you have to avoid making ridiculous remarks such as this.

 

[19nazzy]

Both Roy's Canadiens teams were better than any of Hasek's Sabres teams.

The Canadiens teams weren't that good though. And the 1993 team needed an awful lot of overtime to get anywhere, and without a good goalie they would've been done really quick.

He has also lost the most. 6-7 record in game 7s, 0.907 sv%. Brodeur: 5-3, 0.928 Hasek: 1-2, 0.946. And about memorable performances, how about game 7 Detroit/Colorado in 2002 (which basically was the stanley cup finals that year)? How well did Roy do against Hasek then? I'd say that was a pretty important game 7 that Roy stunk in.

I'll take a game 7 win in the Stanley Cup final over a Game 7 loss in the Western Conference Final against a bought team.

Brodeur also a some years left in his career; it probably will be alot closer by then.

Now that Brodeur doesn't have Niedermayer/Stevens, I'm going to doubt it.

 

[meehan]

The Canadiens teams weren't that good though. And the 1993 team needed an awful lot of overtime to get anywhere, and without a good goalie they would've been done really quick.

Hmm Chelios, Gainey, Robinson, and many other very good players....yeah poor Roy. In 1993 that team only played one round in which they weren't the higher seeded team (they were the 5 to Quebec's 4 in round 1, and really should have been higher if not for Roy having a poor regular season). Also, how many of those overtime goals did Patrick Roy score?

I'll take a game 7 win in the Stanley Cup final over a Game 7 loss in the Western Conference Final against a bought team.

Yeah because the Avs were really cash strapped and didn't have any top tier talent....

Also Brodeur has won a game 7 for the cup, posted a shutout too. And again, that game 7 in 2002 basically was for the cup.

Now that Brodeur doesn't have Niedermayer/Stevens, I'm going to doubt it.

The Devils remain a strong team even without those HOF defensemen.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Yeah because the Avs were really cash strapped and didn't have any top tier talent....

Of the players on the Avalanche 2001 Stanley Cup team, name those players who weren't acquired through the draft or through trade.

 

[19nazzy]

Yeah because the Avs were really cash strapped and didn't have any top tier talent....

How much of that top talent did they get through unrestricted free agency?

Also Brodeur has won a game 7 for the cup, posted a shutout too. And again, that game 7 in 2002 basically was for the cup.

Actually that game in 02 was for the Western Conference Championship. Regardless of who is the best team or not, anything can happen in the finals.

The Devils remain a strong team even without those HOF defensemen.

They're a good team but I'd bet Brodeur won't win another cup.

Also, how many of those overtime goals did Patrick Roy score?

You know you're reaching when.

 

[meehan]

Of the players on the Avalanche 2001 Stanley Cup team, name those players who weren't acquired through the draft or through trade.

My point was that the Avalanche were a great team as well. It wasn't the Red Wings versus the Oilers, it was a clash of NHL superpowers. What difference does it make that the wings had some great players that were acquired via free agency (especially when the core of that team was drafted); does that change the fact that Roy played badly in that game 7?

 

[Bear of Bad News]

My point was that the Avalanche were a great team as well

Then it was a non-sequitur remark that didn't counter the point to which you were responding.

 

[meehan]

How much of that top talent did they get through unrestricted free agency?

What does it matter, we aren't talking about which GM or coach did the most. Those were the two best teams in the league that year....by a good margin too.

Actually that game in 02 was for the Western Conference Championship. Regardless of who is the best team or not, anything can happen in the finals.

Actually, when was the last time a "Cinderella" team won a cup? The Canes didn't stand a chance and everyone knew it.

They're a good team but I'd bet Brodeur won't win another cup.

Meaningless statement.

You know you're reaching when.

Yeah because it's ALL about the goalie....scoring goals....who cares?!

I mean seriously, even in Roy's great 1993 playoffs 3 of his overtime wins came because his team scored less than 3 minutes into the first overtime (twice in the finals they scored OT goals in less than a minute) and he only went into 2OT once that year. It simply is not all him.

 

[meehan]

Then it was a non-sequitur remark that didn't counter the point to which you were responding.

Why would I argue team building strategies in a thread about great goaltenders? And furthermore, he brought up that the Red Wings were "bought" (which, on a side note is ridiculous considering the core of that team was drafted or traded for).

 

[19nazzy]

Why would I argue team building strategies in a thread about great goaltenders? And furthermore, he brought up that the Red Wings were "bought" (which, on a side note is ridiculous considering the core of that team was drafted or traded for).

My comments were in regards to Hull (who led the team in playoff goals and a big reason why they won the cup) and Hasek who I thought they signed as a UFA but after looking it up I see I was incorrect. My bad on that one.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I mean seriously, even in Roy's great 1993 playoffs 3 of his overtime wins came because his team scored less than 3 minutes into the first overtime (twice in the finals they scored OT goals in less than a minute) and he only went into 2OT once that year. It simply is not all him.

In fairness to Roy, playoff overtimes were usually short in the early 1990s (this makes sense, as those seasons are much higher-scoring than today). Of the 28 playoff games that went into overtime in 1993, just 6 went into double-OT (the longest game in the entire postseason was decided after 14:50 of double-OT).

In the playoffs, 50% of overtimes (14 of 28 games) lasted at least 10 minutes. Roy played in 11 overtime games and 6 lasted longer than 10 minutes. So, Roy didn't benefit from shorter overtimes (relative to any of his peers).

The average OT game lasted approximately 12 minutes in 1993. The average OT game that Roy played in last 11 minutes. Again, these numbers show that Roy was no luckier than any of his peers. The only way that Roy's 1993 playoff run appears lucky is if one ignores the context and treats the overtimes as if they occured in 2007.

(Of course, I agree with your point that a goalie is never solely responsible for his team's victory or defeat).

 

[meehan]

In fairness to Roy, playoff overtimes were usually short in the early 1990s (this makes sense, as those seasons are much higher-scoring than today). Of the 28 playoff games that went into overtime in 1993, just 6 went into double-OT (the longest game in the entire postseason was decided after 14:50 of double-OT).

In the playoffs, 50% of overtimes (14 of 28 games) lasted at least 10 minutes. Roy played in 11 overtime games and 6 lasted longer than 10 minutes. So, Roy didn't benefit from shorter overtimes (relative to any of his peers).

The average OT game lasted approximately 12 minutes in 1993. The average OT game that Roy played in last 11 minutes. Again, these numbers show that Roy was no luckier than any of his peers. The only way that Roy's 1993 playoff run appears lucky is if one ignores the context and treats the overtimes as if they occured in 2007.

(Of course, I agree with your point that a goalie is never solely responsible for his team's victory or defeat).

Well I never thought Roy was "lucky". In fact I said he played great. However, I do feel that overtime record is an overrated stat and doesn't tell us much about how good a goaltender has played.