Is Sawchuk Losing His Status as the Greatest Goalie Of All Time?

[Chili]

Take a look at Georges Vezina in his equipment here.

How would any of today's goalers fare back then under the same circumstances. No one knows and I think it's pointless to speculate. Just one example of comparing eras.

So who is the 'greatest of all time'?

No concensus would ever sway my own opinion of the greatest that I personally saw. I believe it is personal perception with no definitive answer.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Besides, no one mentioned Ken Dryden and while he didn't have the best GAA or save %, he does have six Stanley Cups.

Actually, he does.

1972: 4th in GAA, save percentage not recorded
1973: 1st in GAA, save percentage not recorded
1975: 5th in GAA, 5th in save percentage
1976: 1st in GAA, 1st in save percentage
1977: 1st in GAA, save percentage not recorded
1978: 1st in GAA, save percentage not recorded
1979: 1st in GAA, 2nd in save percentage

If GAA (and, to a lesser extent, save percentage) are important to you, than Dryden has to be considered one of the top five goalies of all-time.

Other points in his favour:

Hart trophy nominations
1972: 2nd place (behind Bobby Orr)
1973: 4th place (behind Bobby Clarke, Phil Esposito and Bobby Orr)
1976: 4th place (behind Bobby Clarke, Denis Potvin and Guy Lafleur)

All-star teams (equivalent of the modern Vezina trophy)
1972: named 2nd best goalie in the league (2nd team all-star)
1973: named best goalie in the league (1st team all-star)
1976: named best goalie in the league (1st team all-star)
1977: named best goalie in the league (1st team all-star)
1978: named best goalie in the league (1st team all-star)
1979: named best goalie in the league (1st team all-star)

 

[Bear of Bad News]

Take a look at Georges Vezina in his equipment here.

How would any of today's goalers fare back then under the same circumstances.

Well, how would the shooters look?

 

[rmchahn]

I would say they would definitely win 5 cups. The 71 Cup certainly wouldn't be a sure thing for any goalie. Now, perhaps one of the other greatest wouldn't have left for a year due to a contract dispute, and therefore could have gotten a 6th then. I can agree with you on that point.

I agree that the 71 cup was won mostly on Dryden's superb performance. I'm not sure if any of the other great goalies would have been able to defeat the mighty Bruins in the quarter-finals. It was one of those performances that come once in a lifetime.

Having said that, I also agree that any star goalie could have backstopped the other 5 cups, especially with the Big Three on defence. Those Habs teams were too good.

Which leads me to question, how many Vezinas Dryden would have actually won if back then the award was for most valuable goalie as it is now, and not for the best GAA which was the case back then? Any thoughts?

 

[pitseleh]

Which leads me to question, how many Vezinas Dryden would have actually won if back then the award was for most valuable goalie as it is now, and not for the best GAA which was the case back then? Any thoughts?

I think the best indication would be Dryden's First-Team All Star selections, as they would represent who people felt was the best goaltender in the league. As Hockey Outsider pointed out, he was a First-Team All Star 5 times, and likely would have had 5 Vezinas. It should be noted that through history that certain players were voted Second-Team All Stars and won the Vezina as well, so it's not entirely accurate to say so. It's probably the best indication that we have though.

 

[kurt]

I would argue that Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur are likely better than any of Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, or Dryden.

The discussion is best of all time, not best of their time. Goaltenders of the past had inferior technique. I don't think anyone would argue the fact that the position has evolved greatly.

If you were looking for the greatest swordsman of all time, you'd likely have to deep into the past to find the best of all time, because it's a lost art. However, with hockey, the sport continues to grow and evolve, especially in the past 30 years.

 

[The Legend]

with all this brodeur talk, i believe sawchuk's greatness as the greatest of them all is being diminished.....

i was born in 1971, so i did not see him play, however by reading books on this goalie, i firmly believe he was the greater one.....

but with brodeur destroying the record books in terms of wins and shutouts, now all experts point to him as the greatest goalie....

i wonder how "great" martin brodeur would have been if he played in high scoring 80's where playing defense was afterthought...

any thoughts...

I wonder how great Terry Sawchuk would have been if the players were as big, strong, and fast as they are today.

For the record, I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Terry Sawchuk the greatest of all time.

 

[pitseleh]

I would argue that Hasek, Roy, and Brodeur are likely better than any of Plante, Sawchuk, Hall, or Dryden.

The discussion is best of all time, not best of their time. Goaltenders of the past had inferior technique. I don't think anyone would argue the fact that the position has evolved greatly.

If you were looking for the greatest swordsman of all time, you'd likely have to deep into the past to find the best of all time, because it's a lost art. However, with hockey, the sport continues to grow and evolve, especially in the past 30 years.

But at the same time you can't penalize people for not utilizing something that wasn't available at the time. Otherwise Einstein would be considered dumb, because he didn't even know what a computer is.

 

[EagleBelfour]

I wonder how great Terry Sawchuk would have been if the players were as big, strong, and fast as they are today.

For the record, I don't think I've ever heard anyone call Terry Sawchuk the greatest of all time.

You must be deaf or don't hang out with knowledgable hockey fans . While I think Plante is the best goaltender ever, I can see how people put any of the top 5 goaltenders (Hall, Hasek, Plante, Roy and Sawchuk) on the first spot.

Just for info, these are the results of the pool we conducted on all-time draft GM's on who they think his the best goaltender ever:

10- Jacques Plante (EagleBelfour, God Bless Canada, Hockey Outsider, pitseleh, kruezer, Evil Sather, Frightened Inmate #2, Evil Speaker, reckoning, BM67)
7- Terry Sawchuk (Murphy2, Brett_Lebda, Wisent, pwnasaurus, raleh, vancityluongo, Leaf Lander)
4- Patrick Roy (Spitfire11, shawnmullin, MXD, LapierreSports)
3- Dominik Hasek (HankyFourFinger, pnep, Nalyd Psycho)
1- Glenn Hall (#66)

 

[jerseydevil]

Who's a better golfer, Tiger or Jack? It's a similar argument between equipment, golf courses, eras, etc. I believe that if Brodeur finishes with many more wins, and at least 4 Stanley Cups, I think he will "most likely" go down in history as the Greatest of All time..

 

[EagleBelfour]

Who's a better golfer, Tiger or Jack? It's a similar argument between equipment, golf courses, eras, etc. I believe that if Brodeur finishes with many more wins, and at least 4 Stanley Cups, I think he will "most likely" go down in history as the Greatest of All time..

If you wanna go with stats, let's say that the 3 Conn Smythe earned by Roy alone give him the edge. Having saw both play (didn't had the chance with Plante, Sawchuk and Hall), Patrick Roy will always be ahead of Brodeur. Statistic are meanless when you could watch these guys 100-150 times each. Hasek as a better chance to pass Roy than Brodeur.

 

[Ogopogo*]

And you make it sound as if Hall is undoubtly the greatest; Plante, Sawchuk, and Roy are right there with him.

Based on my research, he is.

Among other reasons, he is the only man to be voted the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times.

 

[Hasbro]

I can't say deffinitivly the greatest, but Roy being able to win in the run-and-gun 80's and still be one of the best in the dead puck era has to count for something.

 

[EagleBelfour]

Based on my research, he is.

Among other reasons, he is the only man to be voted the best goaltender in the NHL 7 times.

Yep, I also believe Hall his the best regular season goaltender of all-time

 

[mcphee]

If you wanna go with stats, let's say that the 3 Conn Smythe earned by Roy alone give him the edge. Having saw both play (didn't had the chance with Plante, Sawchuk and Hall), Patrick Roy will always be ahead of Brodeur. Statistic are meanless when you could watch these guys 100-150 times each. Hasek as a better chance to pass Roy than Brodeur.

Every time I try and decide which stats are the most definitive, I second guess. Conn Smythe's are wonderful, but subjective choices. I'm not comfortable with the individual awards carrying as much weight as they do. I go by people saying, 'he's the best I ever saw' just as much. My old man [82] always picks Sawchuck, and takes #66 as all around player. I add that about Lemieux just to indicate that he isn't stuck in 'back in my day' mode.

The 2 goalies that in my mind, were dominant to the point where you figured you just couldn't win if they were on were Hall and Hasek. I'm a Hab fan and you tend to be more critical of your own goalies, but I can see how Roy's the guy for many. Still, I'd take the 6 names and juggle the order because it's too close too call.

 

[Ogopogo*]

The problem of course is that we're debating goalies from different eras and I just don't think you can do that. You can't compare Sawchuck to Roy or Brodeur because they played during completely different eras with different equipment, team defensive styles, etc.

It's fun to debate but you're never going to have a clearcut "greatest of all time" because there are too many factors.

Besides, no one mentioned Ken Dryden and while he didn't have the best GAA or save %, he does have six Stanley Cups.

Dryden definitely deserves a mention.

Without looking at my list, I think I have it something like this for greatest careers:

1. Hall
2. Roy
3. Dryden
4. Sawchuk
5. Hasek
6. Plante
7. Durnan
8. Brodeur


Brodeur may move up the list if he continues to be great.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Yep, I also believe Hall his the best regular season goaltender of all-time

You blame Glenn for having a shi**y GM?

He does have a Conn Smythe as well, you know.

 

[Barrasso35]

corpse of zombie Sawchuck isn't?

I would pay good money to see zombie corpse Sawchuck vs Brodeur.

Actually, he does.

Sweet. I didn't know he ever had the best save %. Thanks for the info.

 

[EagleBelfour]

You blame Glenn for having a shi**y GM?

He does have a Conn Smythe as well, you know.

One great year dosn't give you the status of playoffs performer, not when you're talking about the all-time greats (Hall wasn't terrible in playoffs, but under the other 5). Plante, while being two years older, stole the job of Hall (the year after his Conn Smythe) and played the majority of playoffs, putting better numbers.

I'll repost what I've put on the all-time draft:

Yet Hall was still the #1 goalie on that team and did win that Conn Smyth. To me that shows a defense that might have tightened up around Plante while leaving Hall out to dry. Even in the regular seasons that Hall had lesser numbers than Plante and Sawchuk he still would come away with the 1st All Star.

I'll be the first to admit that the media can play favorites and that can be as skewed as stats but in the end I will still put what people saw night after night over just pure stats.

Any which way, its a great debate between all of the top guys and IMO its a shame that Marty isn't thrown into the mix. Sure he's played on a defense first team his entire career but he's never played on a great all time team like some of the others. Year after year, with different personal to work with and different styles played in front of him the guy has just been awesome time and time again.

Your making great points #66. Glenn Hall could very well be the best regular season goaltender off all-time. It is very impressive to see his 7 first all-star selection when Terry Sawchuk and Jacques Plante only managed to get 6 first all-star selection combined. However, for me, this isn't enough for me to conclude he was the best regular season goaltender.

When you take a modern example like Dominik Hasek and is time in Buffalo, Hasek had the chance to showcase his incredible talent on an average team. That's why he was able to earn 6 all-star selection (I know now it's a popular vote, but I don't think anyone could argue on these selection). Four other years in the NHL with powerhouse teams like Detroit and Ottawa and while putting up great performances, he didn't receive any selection. It's very difficult to receive those kind of awards when you don't received a truckload of shots and scoring chances every night. Does that say that at that time, a Jacques Plante or Terry Sawchuk wouldn't of been able to do what Glenn Hall was doing? I can't prove it, but I'm sure the gap between the performances would be almost non-existant.

But that's only in regular season. Coming into the playoffs, the goaltender is the most important part of the team, and while no teams were able to win a cup without a good to great performance of his goaltender, a lot of average teams were able to go to the Stanley Cup finals or even win it all because of the masked man. in 82 years, 7 Hart trophy (most dominant regular season player) were given to a goaltender. in 88 years (counting the HHOF retroactive awards http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml), 23 Conn Smythe Trophy (most dominant playoff player) were given to a goaltender, three times as much as the Hart (Sawchuk was 2 of them and Plante 1).

Playoffs stats:

Glenn Hall

15 post-seasons
Missed the SC final 10 time
4 SC Finalist (1956, 1962, 1965, 1968)
1 SC Winner (1961) - 1 Chicago -
1 Conn Smythe (1968)
43%Wins, 6SO, 2.78GAA (2.49GAA regular season)

Jacques Plante

16 poat-season
Missed the SC final 6 time
4 SC Finalist (1954, 1955, 1969, 1970)
6 SC Winner (1953, 1956, 1957, 1058, 1959, 1960) - 6 Montreal -
1 Conn Smythe (1960)
66%Wins, 14SO, 2.13GAA (2.37GAA regular season)

Terry Sawchuk

15 post-season
Missed the SC final
4 SC Finalist (1957, 1961, 1963, 1964)
4 SC Winner (1952, 1954, 1955, 1967) - 3 Detroit, 1 Toronto -
2 Conn Smythe (1952, 1954)
53%Wins, 12SO, 2.53GAA (2.50GAA regular season)

The playoffs is a new season. Especially when only 4 teams qualified into the playoffs: anything can happen. The goaltender can and have to make the difference if his team want to pass through. Does Sawchuk and Plante were playing on a better team than Hall? I would say yes until 1960. The Hawks of the start of the 60's were fairly dominant and after that; Sawchuk, Plante and Hall all played on different teams, less dominant teams.

My last point would regard Plante and Hall, that played together with the St-Louis Blues for two season,: In 1968-69 and 1969-70. (BTW, Hall won the Conn Smythe in 1968 and his backup was Seth Martin and not Jacques Plante like you seem to say. ''Yet Hall was still the #1 goalie on that team and did win that Conn Smyth''. Sorry if I misinterpret you)

Glenn Hall - Between 37 and 39 years old
Jacques Plante - Between 39 and 41 years old

Glenn Hall 1968-69 - 41 games/19W/2.17
Jacques Plante 1968-69 - 37 games/18W/1.96
Glenn Hall 1969-70 - 18 games/7W/2.91 *Was injured*
Jacques Plante 1969-70 - 32 games/18W/2.19

While being 2 years older, he outplayed Hall in this two in the regular season.

Glenn Hall 1968-69 - 3 games/0W/2.29
Jacques Plante 1968-69 - 10 games/8W/1.43
Glenn Hall 1969-70 - 7 games/4W/2.99
Jacques Plante 1969-70 - 6 games/4W/1.48

So, playoff of 1969, because he outplayed Hall in the regular season, he got the net in playoffs and he was awesome. in 1970, Hall and Plante shared the net, and clearly Plante had the better stats, letting 1.5 less goals per game. Without a doubt, Plante was the better goaltender of the two during those two years.

All that only show that Sawchuk and especially Plante were able to elevate there game higher and on a constant basis during the playoffs. Something Hall had trouble to do during their career.

While you can make the argument that Glenn Hall was the best goaltender in the regular season, and I believe so (by a hair ), there's no doubt in my mind that he wasn't on the same path than Plante and Sawchuk on playoffs.

Of the big 6 (Brodeur, Hall, Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk)

Regular Season

Glenn Hall
Jacques Plante
Terry Sawchuk
Dominik Hasek
Martin Brodeur
Patrick Roy

Playoffs

Patrick Roy
Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Terry Sawchuk
Martin Brodeur
Glenn Hall

 

[Ogopogo*]

One great year dosn't give you the status of playoffs performer, not when you're talking about the all-time greats (Hall wasn't terrible in playoffs, but under the other 5). Plante, while being two years older, stole the job of Hall (the year after his Conn Smythe) and played the majority of playoffs, putting better numbers.

I'll repost what I've put on the all-time draft:



Your making great points #66. Glenn Hall could very well be the best regular season goaltender off all-time. It is very impressive to see his 7 first all-star selection when Terry Sawchuk and Jacques Plante only managed to get 6 first all-star selection combined. However, for me, this isn't enough for me to conclude he was the best regular season goaltender.

When you take a modern example like Dominik Hasek and is time in Buffalo, Hasek had the chance to showcase his incredible talent on an average team. That's why he was able to earn 6 all-star selection (I know now it's a popular vote, but I don't think anyone could argue on these selection). Four other years in the NHL with powerhouse teams like Detroit and Ottawa and while putting up great performances, he didn't receive any selection. It's very difficult to receive those kind of awards when you don't received a truckload of shots and scoring chances every night. Does that say that at that time, a Jacques Plante or Terry Sawchuk wouldn't of been able to do what Glenn Hall was doing? I can't prove it, but I'm sure the gap between the performances would be almost non-existant.

But that's only in regular season. Coming into the playoffs, the goaltender is the most important part of the team, and while no teams were able to win a cup without a good to great performance of his goaltender, a lot of average teams were able to go to the Stanley Cup finals or even win it all because of the masked man. in 82 years, 7 Hart trophy (most dominant regular season player) were given to a goaltender. in 88 years (counting the HHOF retroactive awards http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml), 23 Conn Smythe Trophy (most dominant playoff player) were given to a goaltender, three times as much as the Hart (Sawchuk was 2 of them and Plante 1).

Playoffs stats:

Glenn Hall

15 post-seasons
Missed the SC final 10 time
4 SC Finalist (1956, 1962, 1965, 1968)
1 SC Winner (1961) - 1 Chicago -
1 Conn Smythe (1968)
43%Wins, 6SO, 2.78GAA (2.49GAA regular season)

Jacques Plante

16 poat-season
Missed the SC final 6 time
4 SC Finalist (1954, 1955, 1969, 1970)
6 SC Winner (1953, 1956, 1957, 1058, 1959, 1960) - 6 Montreal -
1 Conn Smythe (1960)
66%Wins, 14SO, 2.13GAA (2.37GAA regular season)

Terry Sawchuk

15 post-season
Missed the SC final
4 SC Finalist (1957, 1961, 1963, 1964)
4 SC Winner (1952, 1954, 1955, 1967) - 3 Detroit, 1 Toronto -
2 Conn Smythe (1952, 1954)
53%Wins, 12SO, 2.53GAA (2.50GAA regular season)

The playoffs is a new season. Especially when only 4 teams qualified into the playoffs: anything can happen. The goaltender can and have to make the difference if his team want to pass through. Does Sawchuk and Plante were playing on a better team than Hall? I would say yes until 1960. The Hawks of the start of the 60's were fairly dominant and after that; Sawchuk, Plante and Hall all played on different teams, less dominant teams.

My last point would regard Plante and Hall, that played together with the St-Louis Blues for two season,: In 1968-69 and 1969-70. (BTW, Hall won the Conn Smythe in 1968 and his backup was Seth Martin and not Jacques Plante like you seem to say. ''Yet Hall was still the #1 goalie on that team and did win that Conn Smyth''. Sorry if I misinterpret you)

Glenn Hall - Between 37 and 39 years old
Jacques Plante - Between 39 and 41 years old

Glenn Hall 1968-69 - 41 games/19W/2.17
Jacques Plante 1968-69 - 37 games/18W/1.96
Glenn Hall 1969-70 - 18 games/7W/2.91 *Was injured*
Jacques Plante 1969-70 - 32 games/18W/2.19

While being 2 years older, he outplayed Hall in this two in the regular season.

Glenn Hall 1968-69 - 3 games/0W/2.29
Jacques Plante 1968-69 - 10 games/8W/1.43
Glenn Hall 1969-70 - 7 games/4W/2.99
Jacques Plante 1969-70 - 6 games/4W/1.48

So, playoff of 1969, because he outplayed Hall in the regular season, he got the net in playoffs and he was awesome. in 1970, Hall and Plante shared the net, and clearly Plante had the better stats, letting 1.5 less goals per game. Without a doubt, Plante was the better goaltender of the two during those two years.

All that only show that Sawchuk and especially Plante were able to elevate there game higher and on a constant basis during the playoffs. Something Hall had trouble to do during their career.

While you can make the argument that Glenn Hall was the best goaltender in the regular season, and I believe so (by a hair ), there's no doubt in my mind that he wasn't on the same path than Plante and Sawchuk on playoffs.

Of the big 6 (Brodeur, Hall, Hasek, Plante, Roy, Sawchuk)

Regular Season

Glenn Hall
Jacques Plante
Terry Sawchuk
Dominik Hasek
Martin Brodeur
Patrick Roy

Playoffs

Patrick Roy
Jacques Plante
Dominik Hasek
Terry Sawchuk
Martin Brodeur
Glenn Hall

If you're going to play that game, you have to analyze the players in front of Hall to figure out why his teams didn't win more in the playoffs. Or, are you just going to assume it was always Hall's fault?

Besides, all goaltending stats are skewed by the team in front of the goaltender. There is no stat (except for shootout save %) that gives you a measure of really how good a goaltender is.

Based on eyewitnesses, Hall was #1. (7 1st Team selections and 4 2nd team selections and a Conn Smythe Trophy)

 

[kurt]

But at the same time you can't penalize people for not utilizing something that wasn't available at the time. Otherwise Einstein would be considered dumb, because he didn't even know what a computer is.

I think you can. Of couse there's good reason goalies in the past weren't as good as today's goaltender. They didn't have the goaltender coaching, technique, level of fitness, etc. However, due to that fact, they are not the best of all time. I think it's pretty simple.

I think using Einstein is a poor example. I would say that intelligence is the ability to think abstractly, comprehend, problem solve, make new connections, etc. This is not an ability that is really improved in an organized way throughout the years. Einstein's ability to do so was absolutely incredible, and perhaps unprecedented.

Hockey, on the other hand, is not nearly as abstract and intangible. It's playing angles and percentages, studying your opponent, and training to improve your lateral movement, quickness, flexibility, and reaction time. It's understanding a play as it develops, and anticipating. These aspects are all greatly improved during each generation, especially in the last 30 years, due to the economic boom of professional sports, and the amount of resources now dedicated to improvements in these areas.

Maybe I'm being a pain in the ass. I just disagree with most of these "All-time Best Hockey Player" discussions.

 

[Ogopogo*]

I think you can. Of couse there's good reason goalies in the past weren't as good as today's goaltender. They didn't have the goaltender coaching, technique, level of fitness, etc. However, due to that fact, they are not the best of all time. .

You forgot, by far, the biggest reason today's goaltenders appear to be better:

HUGE equipment.

Without the HUGE equipment, there is no new technique. Glenn Hall made the butterfly popular. HUGE equipment made it mandatory.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

You forgot, by far, the biggest reason today's goaltenders appear to be better:

HUGE equipment.

Better conditioning is a bigger reason for the improvement than bigger equipment.

 

[pitseleh]

I think using Einstein is a poor example. I would say that intelligence is the ability to think abstractly, comprehend, problem solve, make new connections, etc. This is not an ability that is really improved in an organized way throughout the years. Einstein's ability to do so was absolutely incredible, and perhaps unprecedented.

Hockey, on the other hand, is not nearly as abstract and intangible. It's playing angles and percentages, studying your opponent, and training to improve your lateral movement, quickness, flexibility, and reaction time. It's understanding a play as it develops, and anticipating. These aspects are all greatly improved during each generation, especially in the last 30 years, due to the economic boom of professional sports, and the amount of resources now dedicated to improvements in these areas.

I think you have to look at them in relative terms though. The ability to "think abstractly, comprehend, problem solve, make new connections, etc." would be on par with athleticism, reflexes, reaction time, etc. and as such, are both cultivated differently in time. If you were to drop Einstein into today, he wouldn't be able to understand how to use a computer nor would Sawchuk be able to play using modern technique because they weren't available to them at the time.

 

[Ogopogo*]

Better conditioning is a bigger reason for the improvement than bigger equipment.

I disagree with that.

Goalteding equipment is larger and lighter. Goalies cover more of the net and they move faster because it is lighter.

Conditioning helps but nothing helps like having a catching glove double the size that Tony Esposito wore and leg pads that cover 10% more width of the net - among other large equipment.

If goalies are so much better than they were 20 or 30 years ago, simply because of conditioning, they wouldn't need the larger equipment.