monster_bertuzzi
registered user
Ogopogo said:Yes, those players did have better careers than Messier did.
No, they didn't.
Ogopogo said:Yes, those players did have better careers than Messier did.
Ogopogo said:You just haven't researched hockey history.
Wayne Gretzky
Gordie Howe
Bobby Orr
Mario Lemieux
Maurice "Rocket" Richard
Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Jean Believeau
Ray Bourque
Doug Harvey
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye
These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
monster_bertuzzi said:No, they didn't.
King Henry I said:Says the guy who excludes all players from the Islanders/Oilers dynasties except for Wayne Gretzky. Just because a player is old doesn't mean he was great. The idea of Cy Denneny being better than Bossy, Potvin, Messier, or any number of other more recent players is laughable.
In my book Messier isn't in the top 5. He's behind Gretzky, Orr, Howe, Lemieux and Lafleur in my book.
pnep said:Player -- HART -- HART Runner Up -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- ART ROSS -- ART ROSS RU -- RICHARD R U -- CONN SMYTHE
================================================================================
Jagr Jaromir -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 1 -- 5 -- 1 -- 3 -- 0
Messier Mark -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1 -- 0 -- 1
Again, numbers reflective of the REGULAR SEASON. Some of these arguments look like they were drawn from Billy Bean's Moneyball. (For those not aware, Bean is the very capable but slighly misguided general manager of the Oakland As. He uses a stats based system for evaluating talent, which has resulted in several division titles/wildcard births, but doesn't incorporate intangibles, leadership or character, which has caused the downfall of his team in the playoffs). Nowhere in these comparisons between Jagr and Messier do I see mention of number of years as captain, number of underachieving seasons, and I see very little mention of the most important evaluator of all: playoff success. While number of Cups won can't always be the determining factor in greatness, Messier did play a pivotal role in winning all six of his Cups. He was also strong for the Oilers and Rangers in several other playoff runs. To me, that's where he wins out over Jagr, and many other players in that group between 11 and 25.pnep said:Messier VS Jagr
Player -- GAMES -- G -- A -- PTS -- GWG
===============================
Jagr Jaromir -- 1027 -- 537 -- 772 -- 1309 -- 93
Messier Mark -- 1756 -- 694 -- 1193 -- 1887 -- 92
Player Name -- PO GMS -- PO GLS -- PO AST -- PO PTS -- PO GWG
====================================================
Jagr Jaromir -- 146 -- 67 -- 87 -- 154 -- 14
Messier Mark -- 236 -- 109 -- 186 -- 295 -- 12
Player Name -- CUPS -- FINAL -- All Stear Games
========================================
Jagr Jaromir -- 2 -- 0 -- 9
Messier Mark -- 6 -- 1 -- 16
Player -- TOP 10(G) -- #1(G) -- #2 (G) -- TOP 10 (A) -- #1 (A) -- #2 (A) -- TOP 10 (PTS) -- #1(PTS) -- #2(PTS)
========================================================================================
Messier Mark -- 4 -- 0 -- 0 -- 8 -- 0 -- 1 -- 6 -- 0 -- 1
Jagr Jaromir -- 9 -- 0 -- 3 -- 8 -- 3 -- 1 -- 10 -- 5 -- 1
Player -- HART -- HART Runner Up -- 1 ALL STAR -- 2 ALL STAR -- CONN SMYTHE
================================================== ==============================
Messier Mark -- 2 -- 1 -- 4 -- 1 -- 1
Jagr Jaromir -- 1 -- 4 -- 6 -- 1 -- 0
jagr > messier
imho...
God Bless Canada said:(Ask players which means more, and they'll argue the Pearson, because it's voted on by the players).
God Bless Canada said:nowhere do I see mention of the most important fact of all: playoff success.
Ogopogo said:You just haven't researched hockey history.
Eddie Shore
Bobby Hull
Ray Bourque
Phil Esposito
Stan Mikita
Cy Denneny
Howie Morenz
Jaromir Jagr
Guy Lafleur
Bill Cowley
Cecil " Babe" Dye
These 18 players all had greater careers than Messier so he is #19.
Stephen said:but how meaningful were those exploits when you consider that Messier had 6 Cups to Jagr's 2
pnep said:Jean GuyTalbot (7 Cups + 4 Finals) Better than Messier?
But I'm not concerned about numbers. So what? Jagr put up better numbers. Numbers aren't everything. But as an overall player, who got the job done when it counted, Messier was significantly better than Jagr. For those reasons, I'd take Espo, Lafleur, Trottier and Clarke ahead of Jagr, too.pnep said:ok
Messir VS Jagr (by numbers only)
Jagr > Messier
JoBell said:Not even close.
Lemieux
Gretzky
Orr
Roy
Lafleur
Facts? Pnep provided mostly regular season production. As stated before, playoff success is what careers and legacies are built around. A Conn Smythe Trophy (the trophy that matters the most) and a key role in SIX Stanley Cup championships. He also provided leadership and physical play that Jagr never could.Ogopogo said:As happens with any player comparison thread, people take the "fan favorite" and kick the facts to the curb. That is fine, to each his own.
The facts clearly back Jagr (pnep's posts) but people prefer the physical, Canadian, cult hero to the aloof, stand off-ish European. People would rather remember Messier winning the Smythe in '84 or his playoff guarantee in '94 than Jagr's 5 scoring titles and dominance of the 90s. That is OK.
I am a big Messier fan myself, I even have a picture of him on the wall in my office. I have no picture of Jagr, I am not a really a fan of his. But, when I see the facts I have to draw the obvious conclusion that Jagr has had the greater career.
Yes, Messier is the fan favorite because it is in vogue to be a tough, Canadian, leader but, Jagr has accomplished some greater things during his time in the NHL.
I have neither the time or the desire to debate this any further so, hang on to your memories of the Moose and remember that his was a phenomenal hockey player.