Is Jack Johnson the next Bobby Orr

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MN_Gopher

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I think Jack Johnson is that good. He held his own last year against college kids some of which were 7 years older than he was. Allthough only a few. But i am not jumping on the next Orr wagon. Before the draft what was AJ Thelen after his freshman year in the NCAA? The next Pronger or Blake maybe. Now i still think AJ is good and i think J. Johnson will be better. But let him play a full season.
 

eaton28

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Rabid Ranger said:
1) A comparision was being made between CHL and NCAA kids of roughly the same age, which is why Pete pointed to the U.S. win over Canada in the 2003/04 WJC as testamony that a largely NCAA roster can hang with and beat a largely CHL roster.

2) Many of the top prospects for the 2006 draft are in the NCAA or are bound for there next year. What does Brian Little have to do with that?

3) Of course more CHL (read: Canadian) kids will be drafted than NCAA (read: American) kids! There's a much larger pool to draw from, and yes, the CHL as a whole is deeper than the NCAA. That doesn't mean that a top NCAA program like Michigan couldn't beat a top CHL program, because they could.
1. 2005 WJC? the 90's? 2003 we underachived...

2. I was commenting on when he said the top 3 prospects for the 06 draft are 2 NCAA 1 Czech.

3. Yes maybe they could beat them, but put them in the league and they will be no more then an above average team, not a top team.

and has the NCAA ever seen teams with the likes of the London Knights? and seen players like Gretzky? Orr? Crosby?

EDIT: CHL is better because it is all about hockey period. NCAA is about academics...
 

Sammy*

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Rabid Ranger said:
1) A comparision was being made between CHL and NCAA kids of roughly the same age, which is why Pete pointed to the U.S. win over Canada in the 2003/04 WJC as testamony that a largely NCAA roster can hang with and beat a largely CHL roster.

2) Many of the top prospects for the 2006 draft are in the NCAA or are bound for there next year. What does Brian Little have to do with that?

3) Of course more CHL (read: Canadian) kids will be drafted than NCAA (read: American) kids! There's a much larger pool to draw from, and yes, the CHL as a whole is deeper than the NCAA. That doesn't mean that a top NCAA program like Michigan couldn't beat a top CHL program, because they could.

1) Thats happened how many times over the last 10 years? There is no question, the cream of CHL talent is much, much better than the cream of NCAA talent. Anybody who would argue this is delusional & simply a NCAA shill. Stats back that one up
2) ok
3)I dunno what you are saying. There is a heck of alot more NCAA schools than CHL teams. As well, there are more kids playing hockey in the states now than in Canada. That been said, imo a top NCAA team would fairly easily beat a top CHL team. The reason why is obvious & simple. They are alot older. You put a top CHL team at the same age as a top NCAA team, the top CHL team would crush the top NCAA team
 

ryz

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I'm not sure why you think he has a better offensive upside than Phaneuf. Dion is on track for 20+g and 50+ points in his rookie season on one of the deepest blulines in the NHL. I've never seen Johnson play and I've watched Phaneuf evey game this year and if Johnson ends up being "noticeably" better than Phaneuf at any point in thier careers I will eat my Flames jersey. Phaneuf is the real deal and has lived up to and exceeded ALL the hype so far in his NHL career.
 

Rabid Ranger

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eaton28 said:
1. 2005 WJC? the 90's? 2003 we underachived...

2. I was commenting on when he said the top 3 prospects for the 06 draft are 2 NCAA 1 Czech.

3. Yes maybe they could beat them, but put them in the league and they will be no more then an above average team, not a top team.

and has the NCAA ever seen teams with the likes of the London Knights? and seen players like Gretzky? Orr? Crosby?

EDIT: CHL is better because it is all about hockey period. NCAA is about academics...


1) A typically lame Canadian response. Instead of giving the U.S. credit for it's WJC win you say the Canadian team "underachieved." :shakehead

2) The top three prospects for the 2006 draft are as he said: two NCAA/NCAA bound (Kessel and Toews/Erik Johnson) players and a Czech (Michael Frolik).

3) A team like Michigan would be one of the best in the CHL over the course of a season. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous and shows your ignorance.

4) Your last point is well........pointless.
 

Rabid Ranger

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ryz said:
I'm not sure why you think he has a better offensive upside than Phaneuf. Dion is on track for 20+g and 50+ points in his rookie season on one of the deepest blulines in the NHL. I've never seen Johnson play and I've watched Phaneuf evey game this year and if Johnson ends up being "noticeably" better than Phaneuf at any point in thier careers I will eat my Flames jersey. Phaneuf is the real deal and has lived up to and exceeded ALL the hype so far in his NHL career.


Here's the key point of your post: "I've never seen Johnson play". Phaneuf is great, but Johnson has the POTENTIAL to be greater.
 

eaton28

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Rabid Ranger said:
1) A typically lame Canadian response. Instead of giving the U.S. credit for it's WJC win you say the Canadian team "underachieved." :shakehead

2) The top three prospects for the 2006 draft are as he said: two NCAA/NCAA bound (Kessel and Toews/Erik Johnson) players and a Czech (Michael Frolik).

3) A team like Michigan would be one of the best in the CHL over the course of a season. To suggest otherwise is ludicrous and shows your ignorance.

4) Your last point is well........pointless.
Top 50, how many went NCAA compared to CHL.... point proven.
 

Rabid Ranger

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Sammy said:
1) Thats happened how many times over the last 10 years? There is no question, the cream of CHL talent is much, much better than the cream of NCAA talent. Anybody who would argue this is delusional & simply a NCAA shill. Stats back that one up
2) ok
3)I dunno what you are saying. There is a heck of alot more NCAA schools than CHL teams. As well, there are more kids playing hockey in the states now than in Canada. That been said, imo a top NCAA team would fairly easily beat a top CHL team. The reason why is obvious & simple. They are alot older. You put a top CHL team at the same age as a top NCAA team, the top CHL team would crush the top NCAA team


1) I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is a top NCAA team could beat a top CHL team

2) Ok

3) There are 59 NCAA Division I programs, how many CHL teams are there?
 

Sammy*

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Rabid Ranger said:
1) I'm not disputing that. All I'm saying is a top NCAA team could beat a top CHL team

2) Ok

3) There are 59 NCAA Division I programs, how many CHL teams are there?

58 teams in the CHL
 

Rabid Ranger

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eaton28 said:
Top 50, how many went NCAA compared to CHL.... point proven.


What point is that? No offense, but Hockey's Future isn't the end all for evaluating prospects. That list is wildy debated even on this board.
 

MN_Gopher

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It does not matter how good a prospect will be. It matters when comparing NCAA to CHL how good the players are that year. Michagen would be one of the very best in the CHL. Does that mean they will put out more NHLers. Nope. Make an all star team on 15 year olds and have them play 20 year olds in the AHL. The 20 year olds win on strengh and maturity. That does not mean the AHLers will be better NHLers. It just means that one year they were better.

And the WJC never features the best the NCAA has to offer. And in many years it is a total B team.
 

04' hockey

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Zorin said:
He has 2 Art Ross (69/70, 74/75)
8 consecutive Norris (67/68-74/5)
3 consecutive Heart (69/70-71/72)
2 Conn Smythe (69/70, 71/72)
a Lester B. (74/75) and, not to forget, the 66/67 Calder. Pretty impressive hardware for a guy who was injury plagued throughout his carreer and only played ONE 80-game campaign and just 9 more or less complete seasons due to injury! Keep in mind, there was just ONE year of more or less full action, in which he did not win Norris and that was his rookie season! What more can you say?!
Orr's last full year he was 28 yrs. old!!! What was hockey deprived of? Can you imagine the #'s this guy would have had? Like Gordie Howe stated, losing Orr was the greatest loss hockey has ever suffered. Most players come into thier prime around 26,27,28. His(ORR's) whole caeer was PRIME.
:bow:
 

Transported Upstater

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Wasn't this thread supposed to be about Jack Johnson, not an argument between the merits of the NCAA and Canadian Hockey League?

ON TOPIC, PEOPLE!!! :)
 

ryz

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Rabid Ranger said:
Here's the key point of your post: "I've never seen Johnson play". Phaneuf is great, but Johnson has the POTENTIAL to be greater.

I see your point, but Johnson better be the second comming of Bobby Orr if he is going to be better than Dion.
 

barfy2000

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ryz said:
I see your point, but Johnson better be the second comming of Bobby Orr if he is going to be better than Dion.

id be willing to bet the farm on this one, but when all is said and done, i highly doubt dion phaneuf is going to go down as the 2nd greatest defenseman in nhl history. i just got a feeling.
 

Steveorama

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Johnson looks like a great prospect, I'm thinking a Leetch or Bourque-type star.
But Bobby Orr was a player whose like I don't think we will ever see again.
I've been watching hockey for over 35 years, and I have never seen a player who usually looked like a man among boys as Orr did.
He dominated the OHA when he was 15 years old.
He was a very, very special player, believe me.
 

Transported Upstater

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Are people forgetting that there are many who consider Orr the best player to ever lace 'em up?
 

Letang fan 58

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Pete Rock said:
Current top 3 prospects for the '06? Two in the NCAA, and one in the Czech Rep.

Most dominant player in the NHL this year? Went to Wisconsin.

In the '04 WJC's? An American team with 18 of 22 players coming from the NCAA beat a Canadian team built solely out of CHL players save Jeff Tambellini.

Right now I'd take three teams out of the WCHA over most teams in the CHL easy, let alone out of the entire NCAA.

LOL @ mentioning the 04 world junior team that barely beat canada in the gold medal game and yet not mentioning the canadian junior team last year that demolished all competition by an average over about 6 goals per game.
Take the top 3 teams in the NCAA and put them up against the top 3 in the CHL and I believe the CHL would dominate them...CHL is way tougher, they play a tougher schedule and have tougher competition.

Last year's Draft
Crosby
Bobby Ryan
Pouliot
Brule
Price
all CHL
Johnson
COllege
dont make comparisons that are weak.

it doesnt help the college situation that most of the top end American kids are now going the CHL route aka Bobby Ryan, Mueller
 

Pete Rock

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phaneuf_fan_3 said:
LOL @ mentioning the 04 world junior team that barely beat canada in the gold medal game and yet not mentioning the canadian junior team last year that demolished all competition by an average over about 6 goals per game.

I mentioned that team because it was one of the most, if not the most talented team that Canada has put together since '93. Canada had the most talented team at that tourney, yet the US Junior team beat them. Isn't that what we're arguing here? That a TEAM made up of 85% NCAA players outplayed a TEAM made of 95% CHL players?

phaneuf_fan_3 said:
Last year's Draft
Crosby
Bobby Ryan
Pouliot
Brule
Price
all CHL
Johnson
COllege
dont make comparisons that are weak.

2005 was one draft. I could use the 2000 draft if I wanted to.

DiPietro and Heatley >>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Klesla and Torres

Don't make comparisons that are weak.

phaneuf_fan_3 said:
it doesnt help the college situation that most of the top end American kids are now going the CHL route aka Bobby Ryan, Mueller

And Jonathan Toews (a Canadian) is playing in North Dakota now. :dunno:

And right now, Kessel and Toews > Mueller and Little. :dunno:

Are there really points to any of these? :dunno:
 

Letang fan 58

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Pete Rock said:
I mentioned that team because it was one of the most, if not the most talented team that Canada has put together since '93. Canada had the most talented team at that tourney, yet the US Junior team beat them. Isn't that what we're arguing here? That a TEAM made up of 85% NCAA players outplayed a TEAM made of 95% CHL players?

There is no way that team canada was favoured going into that World Junior Tourney, the only way that Canada eventually was figured on par with the US Junior team that year was strictly by playing amazing throughout the tourney and dominating games, The US juniors winning gold was expected by most as it was a way older team than any other team in the tourney, Canada had like 13 returning players last year in case you had forgot. We had a team made up of mostly 18 year olds in a 19 year old tourney.

USA winning in a game that they were thouroughly outplayed by a Canadian team that was almost all 18 is surely nothing to be amazed at.

If you want a comparison you can look at last years USA squad that was mostly 18 that got absolutely dominated at the tourney when Canada's 19 year old team was the most dominant World Junior team EVER~
 

bleedgreen

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i for not even for a second think jj is a bobby orr, and im a canes fan. i have watched a few of his games though - and ive got to say i dont think ive ever watched a kid like him play. when i heard something like he plays like both stevens and neidemeyer, i thought it was ridicuous....its kinda true. he tries to impact every play he can. he throws the big hits, and tries to score as often as possible. when he screws up, he dead sprints to get back and make amends. his skill level is as good as it gets at his age for a dman, the one thing he doesnt possess right now is maturity. he's an emotional wreck. it can be both a good and bad thing, of course. i think he will be a special player. there is no great comparison for him right now, i cant think of anyone who mixed all his skills with all his ferocity. guys i think of usually did one or the other. konstantinov is probably the best comparison.
 
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