Is Ivan Provorov (Flyers) a "Franchise" D Man ? Thoughts...

[Jray42]

OP, you seem to be confusing "Franchise defenseman in the ilk of 'Doughty, Hedman, Suter, Webber, Subban'" with "#1 defenseman". You've been using those two interchangeably in this thread, there is a big difference.

Is Provorov currently a franchise defenseman in the ilk of the best defensemen in the game? Right now, of course not. That's different than just a #1 defenseman.

Flyers fans are saying he's a number 1 dman. None of us are saying he's CURRENTLY at the level of those elite, franchise defensemen, though we're hopeful for the future.

 

[Winston Wolf]

Nice bait and switch thread, OP.

 

[93LEAFS]

I think even with the guys you mentioned we waited 2-3 seasons before saying they WERE franchise d-men. Before that, we were calling them 'potential' franchise d-men because a lot of growth still had to happen/they had to pan out. I don't think it's unfair to call Provy a potential franchise d-men and he's certainly exhibiting a lot of the same signs, but I wouldn't call him the franchise guy yet.

Doughty was but he is the exception among them. He cracked the Canadian Olympic team in his 2nd post draft season.

 

[TheOllieC]

I wouldn't put him in the same tier as Doughty, Karlsson, Subban, Hedman, Slavin. He's a tier below those guys.

Brilliant post.

 

[joe dirte]

While i believe Provorov is an excellent young DMAN, I do not believe at this time he is a number one "franchise" Defenseman. Doughty, Hedman, Suter, Webber, Subban, this ilk ?


I would like to get a consensus on what fans of other teams think and not Flyer fans.

lol no.

 

[whitstifier]

He's more doomed than Ristolainen. Probably would trade him for Kapanen + 1st

 

[mikeyp24]

Not even the best D from his draft, guy taken after him is IMO already at the level of the OPs guys. Just ask NYI fans who they think is better facing both in the metro. There was Isles fans saying he is in line for multiple Norris's tonight. Kid is leading the league in goals for a D and since last year started the only 2 guys who have scored more are Karlson and Burns. He is abiut to break the Columbus defenseman goals in a season record after 2 more with more then half the season left. Provy is a future 1 and has potential franchise talent but right now no.

To the OPs credit I agree McAvoy also will be the better career D. They are both in the same catagory right now though both are futures #1 but I think McAvoy has a higher ceiling and floor.


Current franchise D
Karlson
Doughty
Hedman
Jones
Werenski
Josi
Pierangelo

Josi is borderline but I give it to him and anyone who doesn't think Jones again ask NYI fans after watching tonight.

 

[mja]

Played almost 28 minutes tonight in a 1 goal regulation win with 4 SOG. Easily led all skaters in TOI, with the next closest being his defense partner, the esteemed Andrew MacDonald, who played a full 3 and a half minutes less. Overall, he's tracking for an 11 G 26 A, 37 P season while averaging 25 minutes a game.

As a 20 year old.

Franchise D? Who knows. But he's most definitely a #1 defenseman already.

 

[mikeyp24]

Played almost 28 minutes tonight in a 1 goal regulation win with 4 SOG. Easily led all skaters in TOI, with the next closest being his defense partner, the esteemed Andrew MacDonald, who played a full 3 and a half minutes less. Overall, he's tracking for an 11 G 26 A, 37 P season while averaging 25 minutes a game.

As a 20 year old.

Franchise D? Who knows. But he's most definitely a #1 defenseman already.

Off topic is your avatar the album cover for the band that sang a song called audio whore?

 

[mja]

Off topic is your avatar the album cover for the band that sang a song called audio ****e?

Indeed.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Played almost 28 minutes tonight in a 1 goal regulation win with 4 SOG. Easily led all skaters in TOI, with the next closest being his defense partner, the esteemed Andrew MacDonald, who played a full 3 and a half minutes less. Overall, he's tracking for an 11 G 26 A, 37 P season while averaging 25 minutes a game.

As a 20 year old.

Franchise D? Who knows. But he's most definitely a #1 defenseman already.

He was phenomenal tonight. One of his best games as a pro. He is by far our best Dman as a 20yo playing the toughest minutes. He would score significantly more points if he was on PP1 but is blocked by Ghost. In my opinion, by the time he is 23 and the Flyers team improves he will be regarded as one of the 5 best dmen in the league.

 

[Dano85]

Not even the best D from his draft, guy taken after him is IMO already at the level of the OPs guys. Just ask NYI fans who they think is better facing both in the metro. There was Isles fans saying he is in line for multiple Norris's tonight. Kid is leading the league in goals for a D and since last year started the only 2 guys who have scored more are Karlson and Burns. He is abiut to break the Columbus defenseman goals in a season record after 2 more with more then half the season left. Provy is a future 1 and has potential franchise talent but right now no.

To the OPs credit I agree McAvoy also will be the better career D. They are both in the same catagory right now though both are futures #1 but I think McAvoy has a higher ceiling and floor.


Current franchise D
Karlson
Doughty
Hedman
Jones
Werenski
Josi
Pierangelo

Josi is borderline but I give it to him and anyone who doesn't think Jones again ask NYI fans after watching tonight.

Jones AND Werenski are Franchise D men (Based off todays gave vs the Islanders...seems legit)

and Roman Josi is Borderline? Roman Josi is the reason the Jackets have Jones in the first place

Provy plays with McDonald, swap him with either Jones or Werenski....would love to see the conversation then....

and Provorov played 12 minutes more than Ghost tonight...he is without a doubt the #1 D on the flyers, whether or not he is a franchise D is a completely different question.

 

[mikeyp24]

Jones AND Werenski are Franchise D men (Based off todays gave vs the Islanders...seems legit)

and Roman Josi is Borderline? Roman Josi is the reason the Jackets have Jones in the first place

Provy plays with McDonald, swap him with either Jones or Werenski....would love to see the conversation then....

and Provorov played 12 minutes more than Ghost tonight...he is without a doubt the #1 D on the flyers, whether or not he is a franchise D is a completely different question.

No I'm saying ask the most recent team that saw them... not because the game. They can tell you how legit Z is.

Johanson is the reason we have jones. If we are saying who was top of the depth chart when he left it was Weber... So Weber would be the reason we have Jones. Is Weber still a franchise D? Also ask preds fans if they knew Jones was a #1 when they traded him... I've seen many posters here talking about either wishing they didn't make the trade because they didn't know how good he was or they would have gotten someone better had they known.

It doesn't matter who Z's partner is again ask them if when Z was leading break aways and popping up in the play of they noticed Jones... hint they didnt. Moat would say they noticed either bread or PLD in any of his plays tonight and most would say bread on a normal night because they have been connecting like crazy. Saying Z can't be a 1 because Jones is like saying Malkin isn't a 1 because Crosby.

And playing 12 minutes more then ghost is great for him... But that's like playing 12 minutes more then Nutivaara who is our young guy who is offensive minded like Ghost. Ghost is a liability at times on D. Points isn't the only contributer to being a top pairing. Nor does playing with one of top 10 defenders in the league mean you can' be one too. Provy is certainly the #1 on Philly. But is he a top 30 D in the league? That tells you if he is a #1. You can move on from there.

 

[Dano85]

No I'm saying ask the most recent team that saw them... not because the game. They can tell you how legit Z is.

Johanson is the reason we have jones. If we are saying who was top of the depth chart when he left it was Weber... So Weber would be the reason we have Jones. Is Weber still a franchise D? Also ask preds fans if they knew Jones was a #1 when they traded him... I've seen many posters here talking about either wishing they didn't make the trade because they didn't know how good he was or they would have gotten someone better had they known.

It doesn't matter who Z's partner is again ask them if when Z was leading break aways and popping up in the play of they noticed Jones... hint they didnt. Moat would say they noticed either bread or PLD in any of his plays tonight and most would say bread on a normal night because they have been connecting like crazy. Saying Z can't be a 1 because Jones is like saying Malkin isn't a 1 because Crosby.

And playing 12 minutes more then ghost is great for him... But that's like playing 12 minutes more then Nutivaara who is our young guy who is offensive minded like Ghost. Ghost is a liability at times on D. Points isn't the only contributer to being a top pairing. Nor does playing with one of top 10 defenders in the league mean you can' be one too. Provy is certainly the #1 on Philly. But is he a top 30 D in the league? That tells you if he is a #1. You can move on from there.

again you reference 1 Isles game...tell me about how good werenski was in the 7-2 blow out?

In 2015-2016 Josi averaged more ice time than Weber and scored 10 more points then him. so maybe?

The Nashville Depth on D was the reason they were able to move Jones not Ryan Johansen. Nashville also leads the league this season in D points with 81 Josi contributing 21 which is more then both Jones and Werenski while playing 4 games less.

and it without a doubt matters who your D partner is, you think the Jackets having 2 "franchise D" playing together some how doesn't leave either of them in a better position than Provorov playing with Andy MacDonald does? I'd even argue playing in front of Bob is a big advantage as well.

 

[mikeyp24]

again you reference 1 Isles game...tell me about how good werenski was in the 7-2 blow out?

In 2015-2016 Josi averaged more ice time than Weber and scored 10 more points then him. so maybe?

The Nashville Depth on D was the reason they were able to move Jones not Ryan Johansen. Nashville also leads the league this season in D points with 81 Josi contributing 21 which is more then both Jones and Werenski while playing 4 games less.

and it without a doubt matters who your D partner is, you think the Jackets having 2 "franchise D" playing together some how doesn't leave either of them in a better position than Provorov playing with Andy MacDonald does? I'd even argue playing in front of Bob is a big advantage as well.

Makes sense that Philly lost 10 in a row now because they don't have a decent defenseman to stop the other team from dominating them... see how stupid that is. Instead of looking at the league leader in goals... You know directly creating points your worried about a guy who is part of a teams d who has contributed to a lot of secondary assists... woohoo

Look at Jones numbers on NASH. His highest amount of points in the 2 years there was 27. 40 games In Columbus in one of their worst years in recent history he scored 20. The next year in like 77 games he scores the exact amount of points in 1 season. Jones was likely better then Josi while there but just didn't get the time. And Jones never leaves that team without a 70pt RyJo. Other teams made offers and were turned down like RNH. Pollie loved Jones and only moved him because RyJo was the #1c they never had.

Finally look at Bob's seasons without an actual D in front of him. There's a reason he won the Vezna last year and not before Jones and Z were there except the lockout year when flukes happened like Subban somehow winning a Norris that while year was a mess of inaccurate outcomes.

 

[Winston Wolf]

No I'm saying ask the most recent team that saw them... not because the game. They can tell you how legit Z is.

Johanson is the reason we have jones. If we are saying who was top of the depth chart when he left it was Weber... So Weber would be the reason we have Jones. Is Weber still a franchise D? Also ask preds fans if they knew Jones was a #1 when they traded him... I've seen many posters here talking about either wishing they didn't make the trade because they didn't know how good he was or they would have gotten someone better had they known.

It doesn't matter who Z's partner is again ask them if when Z was leading break aways and popping up in the play of they noticed Jones... hint they didnt. Moat would say they noticed either bread or PLD in any of his plays tonight and most would say bread on a normal night because they have been connecting like crazy. Saying Z can't be a 1 because Jones is like saying Malkin isn't a 1 because Crosby.

And playing 12 minutes more then ghost is great for him... But that's like playing 12 minutes more then Nutivaara who is our young guy who is offensive minded like Ghost. Ghost is a liability at times on D. Points isn't the only contributer to being a top pairing. Nor does playing with one of top 10 defenders in the league mean you can' be one too. Provy is certainly the #1 on Philly. But is he a top 30 D in the league? That tells you if he is a #1. You can move on from there.

Do you have to **** in every thread about Provorov? Yes, we get it that you think Werenski is better, no one really cares. Plenty of other people have different opinions on that, we really don't need to see you write the same B.S. manuscript about how great Werenski is every thread. Comparing Nutivaara to Ghost merely shows how clueless you are.

 

[Appleyard]

I mean... the Flyers defense (led by Provorov) has allowed the least 5v5 GA/60 of any in the league. Defense has been the least of the teams 5v5 problems this year. The youngest defense in the NHL has been one of the best.

50% ExGF and 2.33 ExGA are both above average from a defenseman... before considering that he has faced:

41% zone starts (22nd least of any regular NHL Dman)
29.54 TOI QoC (28th toughest of any regular NHL Dman)

And that on top of that he is pacing for close to 40 points...

while dragging around Andrew MacDonald who is a bottom pairing defenseman.


People talk about Provorov's Corsi... but:

Career:

With MacDonald: 46.12%
Without MacDonald: 51.18%

 

[Hint1k]

He plays franchise minutes every night, so he is a franchise player. It is nothing really to argue about. Just check TOI/GP on nhl.com

 

[Lotusflower]

I'll add "Provorov is not a number 1 D" to the list of Things People Say on the Main Board for 5 Plus Years Without Watching More than 5 Flyers Games in that Timeframe

Along with such classics as "Couturier is a 3C" and "Claude Giroux is Declining" and "Philly is Where Goaltenders go to Die"

 

[janesy12]

Was very impressed with him the other night against the Leafs. Flyers definitely have a good one there, easily will be a #1 dman if he's not there already.

 

[Rebels57]

 

[Rebels57]

 

[Tripod]

Funny...the OP called Provy and Ghost a good #3/4 paring....lol.

This reminds me of the other thread where that guy was telling everyone how Provy had to have had a bad game based on the stats, yet he didn't even watch the game....yet was named 3rd star.

Those who watch Provy a lot know how good he is.

 

[wintersej]

McAvoy and Provorov are on the same tier. Potential #1D playing #1D minutes at a young age. And maybe "elite/A+/franchise/whatever you want to call it" beyond that. You don't know yet at this age for d-men except very rarely. Bourque you could tell. Coffey maybe his second year. Took Pronger and Lidstrom a while. I think Hedman has reached "franchise D" level, and it took him years. Doughty you could tell in his 2nd season.

If you are asking "right now", the answer is an obvious "no". Too early to answer.

 

[YEM]

I'm not sure but I know I'd sign him to a 12 year contract in the neighborhood of 75 milly if I were running the Flyers after his rookie deal is donzo cause he gonna be good for a long time...