Is Ivan Provorov (Flyers) a "Franchise" D Man ? Thoughts...

[Connor McConnor]

Why do people keep saying this?

Provorov is tied for 8th in ES points for Dmen. And that's on a team that is middle of the road at scoring at ES...tied for 17th. He will not put up top point because Ghost gets the #1PP time. It has nothing to do with Provy, but how good Ghost is on the PP....Ghost is tied for #1 in the league in PP points.

Even so...Provy is on pace for 41 points this year...had 30 last year.

Since entering the league last year, he is 21st in ES points and 45th in points overall for Dmen.

This "myth" about his offense not translating is just that, a myth.

I'm a big Prov fan as evidenced by my post so I'm not sure why you have to take offense with one thing I said. As you pointed out Ghost is ahead of him on the pecking chart offensively and based on the contract Ghost just signed he will need to eventually overtake him to ever truly reach his offensive potential. 40-50 points is good but will not cut it as elite in the eyes of many especially when I know he could be a 60-70+ pt guy with a few Norris' when all is said and done.

 

[Byrral]

I have been consistent in my debates with CBJ fans (they don't agree with me) that Werenski is not a franchise defenseman and that Jones isn't either (I think he's really close to being a #1) so neither is Provorov. He's a really good player and will get better with more experience. Let him grow into a true #1 before we start placing a franchise tag on him.

 

[JP Nolan]

Now tell the truth what you said. Here are the quotes you said and why people had issue with them:

"Provorov to me looks like a great number 3 defenseman or maybe a compliment number 2 guy to a real number one guy."

"Provy is a nice 3-4 guy on a bunch of teams but i agree he would be a one or your team. Trouble is i see them promoting the Ghost kid alot more then Provy........I will say they are a great 3-4 tandem."

And only 1 person used the word "franchise"....and that was you. Yes Flyers fans Provy is already a #1 Dman.

Also you said McAvoy is a franchise #1 Dman: "Charlie McAvoy, thats what a young future number one franchise DMAN looks like."

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hawks-chicago-and-flyers-philadelphia-re-tool.2421749/page-3

Now at least people know the reason behind this thread.

Tripod, post:

[/QUOTE]Tripod, post:Ah yes.. McAvoy...the guy who gets to play with a former Norris winner while Provy gets to drag around Andrew MacDonald.

Both will be #1's. Provy already is....and has been for awhile. Guess we will have to suffer thru having the 6th highest ES Dman in the league.

Now tell the truth what you said. Here are the quotes you said and why people had issue with them:

"Provorov to me looks like a great number 3 defenseman or maybe a compliment number 2 guy to a real number one guy."

"Provy is a nice 3-4 guy on a bunch of teams but i agree he would be a one or your team. Trouble is i see them promoting the Ghost kid alot more then Provy........I will say they are a great 3-4 tandem."

And only 1 person used the word "franchise"....and that was you. Yes Flyers fans Provy is already a #1 Dman.

Also you said McAvoy is a franchise #1 Dman: "Charlie McAvoy, thats what a young future number one franchise DMAN looks like."

http://hfboards.mandatory.com/threads/hawks-chicago-and-flyers-philadelphia-re-tool.2421749/page-3

Now at least people know the reason behind this thread.

The real quote was you saying that he is a number one and has been for some time...Above is my response to this......

Ah yes.. McAvoy...the guy who gets to play with a former Norris winner while Provy gets to drag around Andrew MacDonald.

Both will be #1's. Provy already is....and has been for awhile. Guess we will have to suffer thru having the 6th highest ES Dman in the league.

Just to recap.....The consensus is that Provy is NOT at this moment a number one franchise dman which is what i thought....And i doubt he gets there. Like i said, a complimentary 2 or a great 3.

That said, he cant carry McAvoys jock strap.......

 

[Tripod]

One of these players is not like the others.

Re; OP - He seems to be trending in that direction, but the body of work is still too small. Be patient and allow him to keep doing what he’s doing. He’ll get recognition in due time.

That's the thing...if someone says "the sample size is too small to call him a number one. I like to see a guy do it for 2-3 full seasons first"....then I have no issue with that at all.

But someone saying, no Provy is not a #1, but McAvoy IS...or Slavin IS...or Werenski IS.....then that makes no sense.

And when the OP by his own words says he is a "nice #3/#4 on a bunch of teams"....come on.

 

[613Leafer]

I'm pretty happy with Marner, but Provorov was one of the main guys I was also interested in for the Leafs in the 2015 draft. Hopefully the Leafs don't regret passing on him or Hanifin, because we could obviously really use a premium young defenceman (Werenski as well, though I think he's more of a guy who has exceeded draft expectations and wasn't truly in the conversation for 4th OA).

Provorov looks great. Really solid defensively, especially considering his age. And the offence for his age is fine. If he's able to put up ~35-40 points this season at age 20, no reason to expect that to be his ceiling.

 

[Byrral]

That said, he cant carry McAvoys jock strap.......

I don't understand these kind of posts. Do you think this makes your point more valid because it doesn't.

 

[Tripod]

I'm a big Prov fan as evidenced by my post so I'm not sure why you have to take offense with one thing I said. As you pointed out Ghost is ahead of him on the pecking chart offensively and based on the contract Ghost just signed he will need to eventually overtake him to ever truly reach his offensive potential. 40-50 points is good but will not cut it as elite in the eyes of many especially when I know he could be a 60-70+ pt guy with a few Norris' when all is said and done.

I was pointing out that his "lack of offense" is not true.

It's the lack of points due to Ghost being on the #1PP unit, not Provy's inability.

Drew Doughty's has been in the league for 9 years...and has 2 seasons over 46 points. He is elite. And he plays on the top PP unit to "only" get those points. So why can't Provy?

But FWIW, lots of Flyers fans use Suter as the comparable Dman to Provy. Provy won't get those 60-70 point totals due to Ghost, but that's ok. We will gladly take a Suter or Doughty type career.

 

[JP Nolan]

I don't understand these kind of posts. Do you think this makes your point more valid because it doesn't.

No it does not.....But i started the conversation by being complimentary to Provorov and saying he was a great young Dman who i thought at this time was a number 2-3 guy with potentential....Fly fans then started telling me is is now and has been a number one....The McAvoy thing came up because he said McAvoy was good because he played with Chara and not McDonald....

I am done with the thread as my point has been proven that most think like i do that Provy is very good but is not at this moment a number one dman....

And i threw that in as a parting shot......No biggie.

 

[FrozenJagrt]

I think he will be in the future. Guy looks like a stud, but I'm not prepared to call him a franchise player just yet. I'm a Leafs fan, I've seen too many young defenders look great early on and then totally bomb. I doubt Provo-Cop does that though. I'd take him on my team any day.

 

[Ingvar]

No it does not.....But i started the conversation by being complimentary to Provorov and saying he was a great young Dman who i thought at this time was a number 2-3 guy with potentential....Fly fans then started telling me is is now and has been a number one....The McAvoy thing came up because he said McAvoy was good because he played with Chara and not McDonald....

I am done with the thread as my point has been proven that most think like i do that Provy is very good but is not at this momejnt a number one dman....

And i threw that in as a parting shot......No biggie.

Actually, that's very interesting. You started this thread with a claim that Provorov isn't a "franchise dman like Doughty/Karlsson" (which he isn't) and now you're moving goalposts. A thread with a question about whether Provorov is a 1D right now would be better to check this claim. I took my time to look through the stats to lower my bias and surprisingly I found out Provorov IS a low-end 1D right now - you'd be hard-pressed to find 25 guys better than him on paper and he passes the eye test. Charlie McAvoy is most certainly not one of them so your partying shot looks stupid.

 

[Critical13]

Not yet but he's coming around. I find he runs around a lot in his own end, doesn't have the defensive or offensive IQ yet to be a #1. Physical tools, definitely. Would like to see him shoot more.

 

[NJ DevLolz]

Franchise player, no

#1? Maybe

 

[Advanced stats]

Did you really put Slavin in that list ?

+1 lol. Provo is closer to slavin then Slavin is to elite #1. (Karlsson, Doughty, Hedman)

 

[Mallard]

He definitely could be ... the other guys you mentioned I doubt were considered franchise Dmen at 20 years old either.

 

[Son of Donegal]

The difference between Ivan Provorov and Charlie McAvoy, in terms of their impact to their teams, is negligible at this point. They are both playing #1 minutes for their squads and last I checked ...have almost identical numbers. If Provorov is playing 24 minutes a night at age 21...things look good for him down the road.

You know - here's another thing...Provorov was highly touted for years before being drafted 7th overall. EVERYONE knew he was going to be great. The fact that he actually IS great - which, you know, is the whole point - makes this thread seem like the OP is reaching for agreement. In all honesty, I think he is way off.

OP, I am not sure this is what you wanted to hear, but not only do I disagree with you about Provorov, but I think your method is pretty weak. Not only were you asking if Provorov is a franchise D, which no one suggested he was EXCEPT for you - but you are also stating that you think Provorov is actually a #3 or #4 with some upside.

Start another poll and ask folks how many think he is a career #3 guy with some upside.

 

[Ace Card Bedard]

Is there a difference between #1 defenseman and "franchise" defenseman?

I say this because as a Blackhawks fan I can only think of 3 "franchise" defensemen in the history of the team: Pilote, Chelios, and Keith.
Doug Wilson possibly.

So is Provorov destined be a #1 or a "franchise?"

 

[Son of Donegal]

He definitely could be ... the other guys you mentioned I doubt were considered franchise Dmen at 20 years old either.

Hedman looked like a borderline BUST for a long time.

This thread is ridiculous and if I had to bet, I would bet on Provorov playing #1 minutes for PHI for YEARS. He's already playing 24 mins a night at 20-21.

 

[SI90]

He’s definitely trending towards that. What he’s done at his age the last couple of years is impressive. It’s much harder for young Defensman than young forwards.

 

[biturbo19]

Right now, i'd say he's a good example of the difference for me between a #1D and a "Franchise D". He's still extremely young though, and would not surprise me one bit if he continues to grow into that select tier of Franchise calibre guys with time and experience.

 

[Dumais]

Is there a difference between #1 defenseman and "franchise" defenseman?

I say this because as a Blackhawks fan I can only think of 3 "franchise" defensemen in the history of the team: Pilote, Chelios, and Keith.
Doug Wilson possibly.

So is Provorov destined be a #1 or a "franchise?"

I think their is a difference. Franchise is the face of the franchise, the player everyone thinks of when you say the team. Not just the fans, but coaches and players think of when playing your team. Where line matchups and who your team needs to stop. He is alway noticeable every night and other players always make sure to finish checks on and is the targe to aggravate . That's a francise guy. And Prov isnt really that.

Is he a top pairing guy? #1 or #2? Probably,
Could he become a franchise? Unlikely.
But neither will happen if you dont get top pairing minutes, and he is.

 

[firstemperor]

He's extremely overrated right now, coming from someone who has always insisted he is who I would have taken at #4 in his draft year.

He's getting an insane amount of minutes right now and has performed underwhelming->mediocre, given his usage. I think there is a lot of potential there but he's not even close to a legitimately good top-pairing D yet, let alone a franchise D. He's trending that way if all goes well. He's in a similar boat to MacAvoy right now.

 

[Uncle Scrooge]

Personally think he's going to be a top pairing dman for a long time, but whether or not that means a franchise #1 remains to be seen.

It's tough to become one of the best players in your position and not many guys are able to achieve that. There's steps to be taken and most guys stop at "just" very good.

Can only wait and see.

 

[Fantomas]

Everyone knows that if you're not elite at 20 you'll never be elite.

 

[Filthy Dangles]

I wouldn't put him in the same tier as Doughty, Karlsson, Subban, Hedman, Slavin. He's a tier below those guys.

Uhm...one of these things is not like the others.

Let me have you guess which one

 

[jaric1862]

He's not quite there yet, but there is no doubt in my mind that he will become one in the future. Wish he was a leaf, you guys sure got a good player in him. Congrats.