Is it time to blow the team up and rebuild?

[Belial]

I can see a rebuild being imposed on the team, like it or not.

When Bergevin was hired, he said the goal was to build through the draft. He repeated this again in an interview with Chris Nilan last week.

Where is the evidence of that?

I don`t see it within the roster, nor the prospect list.

Trades are hard. Teams aren`t out there thinking `how can we help the Habs?`. Quite the opposite, they`re all out to fleece you.

That`s why the draft is so important, so if you`re not making a consistent impact there it will catch up with a team eventually.

I believe they have a coach in place now who will help young players develop. But there have to be players with upside and the constant will to get better being brought onto the roster.

Mete? Lehkonen? Hudon? Chucky? Drouin?

 

[Lshap]

I can see a rebuild being imposed on the team, like it or not.

When Bergevin was hired, he said the goal was to build through the draft. He repeated this again in an interview with Chris Nilan last week.

Where is the evidence of that?

I don`t see it within the roster, nor the prospect list.

Trades are hard. Teams aren`t out there thinking `how can we help the Habs?`. Quite the opposite, they`re all out to fleece you.

That`s why the draft is so important, so if you`re not making a consistent impact there it will catch up with a team eventually.

I believe they have a coach in place now who will help young players develop. But there have to be players with upside and the constant will to get better being brought onto the roster.

A few prospects look like they may become solid middle-pack players, but there's no top-end talent in sight, which is what the Habs desperately need. Without top prospects or a plan to acquire top prospects, there's no point in rebuilding if we end up with a younger version of the same mediocre product.

 

[Chili]

Mete? Lehkonen? Hudon? Chucky? Drouin?

How many present or future core players do you see there?

I see one.

I don`t want to beat down on individual young players, it`s the overall look of the current, mid and long range of the group of players they currently have that in my opinion is not as good as other teams around them.

Who do you see as the core of this team in a few years, both up front and on the blueline?

 

[Belial]

How many present or future core players do you see there?

I see one.

I don`t want to beat down on individual young players, it`s the overall look of the current, mid and long range of the group of players they currently have that in my opinion is not as good as other teams around them.

Who do you see as the core of this team in a few years, both up front and on the blueline?

Considering the rank where this team keeps drafting it's tough to expect blue chip prospects to be honest.

I'm not expecting any major changes in the near future.

Plek will be probably gone, McCarron, Scherbak, Lernout,Juulsen make the team, something will be acquired with that cap space and there you have it.

 

[Mtl01]

A few prospects look like they may become solid middle-pack players, but there's no top-end talent in sight, which is what the Habs desperately need. Without top prospects or a plan to acquire top prospects, there's no point in rebuilding if we end up with a younger version of the same mediocre product.

This is the frustrating cycle they are trapped in. I just don't see any solutions on the horizon.

 

[Captain Mountain]

This is the frustrating cycle they are trapped in. I just don't see any solutions on the horizon.

Draft better? Its not like all the teams with top prospect pools tanked to get those prospects. People like to bring up the Leafs as a tank job done correctly, but the difference makers they got in the draft were Matthews, Nylander and Marner (maybe Kadri). The rest of the roster is built with trades and savvier picks lower down in the line-up. Montreal had 3 elite difference makers on the team when Bergevin came in.

Carolina built an amazing D core out of draft picks in a 5 year window and only two were lottery picks.

From 2009 to 2013, entirely outside of the 1st round, they drafted Dumolin, Faulk, Slavin and Pesce.

 

[Bryson]

A few prospects look like they may become solid middle-pack players, but there's no top-end talent in sight, which is what the Habs desperately need. Without top prospects or a plan to acquire top prospects, there's no point in rebuilding if we end up with a younger version of the same mediocre product.

This what happens when you have no vision or direction. This is why it was imperative to go for it when Price/Pk/Patches were still young and on good contracts. So you can keep adding temporary band aids and go for it to make the most out of the current core or blow it up and rebuild.

The fact that we have no top end talented prospects is the exact reason why we NEED to rebuild. Think about how the Leafs added top end talent in only 2-3 years.

 

[Mtl01]

Draft better? Its not like all the teams with top prospect pools tanked to get those prospects. People like to bring up the Leafs as a tank job done correctly, but the difference makers they got in the draft were Matthews, Nylander and Marner (maybe Kadri). The rest of the roster is built with trades and savvier picks lower down in the line-up. Montreal had 3 elite difference makers on the team when Bergevin came in.

For sure, draft and develop better is critical to future success among numerous other factors. The frustration is that the current GM is not making even incremental improvements at this point and the bar is trending the wrong way.

 

[CHwest]

Considering the rank where this team keeps drafting it's tough to expect blue chip prospects to be honest.

I'm not expecting any major changes in the near future.

Plek will be probably gone, McCarron, Scherbak, Lernout,Juulsen make the team, something will be acquired with that cap space and there you have it.

How many draft picks has half wit traded away?

 

[Bryson]

Draft better? Its not like all the teams with top prospect pools tanked to get those prospects. People like to bring up the Leafs as a tank job done correctly, but the difference makers they got in the draft were Matthews, Nylander and Marner (maybe Kadri). The rest of the roster is built with trades and savvier picks lower down in the line-up. Montreal had 3 elite difference makers on the team when Bergevin came in.

This is my view as well when people say tanking is necessary. A good GM doesn't need to tank. Tanking is just the easiest and quickest solution to the problem but a good team can be built through good trades and good drafting. Gainey put together a semi competitive team all the while drafting guys like Price, Subban, McDonagh and trading Rivet for Pacioretty and Gorges. This is why I truly believe that this team would have won a Stanley Cup by now if Gainey and Gauthier were allowed to finish what they started.

 

[Captain Mountain]

For sure, draft and develop better is critical to future success among numerous other factors. The frustration is that the current GM is not making even incremental improvements at this point and the bar is trending the wrong way.

Which is one of the reasons why its to early to say Montreal should rebuild. Can anyone honestly trust this org to pull off an effective rebuild.

Tear-downs are easy. Building up from the ground up is incredibly difficult. Without the right people in place and a bit of luck, it can take a decade or more, if your lucky. Look at the Islanders. They started tearing stuff down in 2008.

 

[Captain Mountain]

This is my view as well when people say tanking is necessary. A good GM doesn't need to tank. Tanking is just the easiest and quickest solution to the problem but a good team can be built through good trades and good drafting. Gainey put together a semi competitive team all the while drafting guys like Price, Subban, McDonagh and trading Rivet for Pacioretty and Gorges. This is why I truly believe that this team would have won a Stanley Cup by now if Gainey and Gauthier were allowed to finish what they started.

Maybe Gainey could have pulled it off. Maybe. No way Gauthier could have though. The team did not draft well under his leadership and didn't really develop all that well. Neither could really make a pro-level trade to save their lives outside of TDL deals. And Gauthier systematically tore down the amateur scouting staff he inherited.

 

[Chili]

Considering the rank where this team keeps drafting it's tough to expect blue chip prospects to be honest.

I'm not expecting any major changes in the near future.

Plek will be probably gone, McCarron, Scherbak, Lernout,Juulsen make the team, something will be acquired with that cap space and there you have it.

Maybe where you and I differ is draft expectations.

Building through the draft are Bergevin`s words. They would be mine as well.

The draft is not 1 round, it is seven rounds.

62% of players on opening rosters were not first round draft picks.

Drafting high helps some for sure, especially in some draft years but there are NHL players found all over the draft (and beyond).

To me, it`s defeatist to say, we don`t draft high, so don`t expect anything. Or was it expect the unexpected?

 

[Belial]

Maybe where you and I differ is draft expectations.

Building through the draft are Bergevin`s words. They would be mine as well.

The draft is not 1 round, it is seven rounds.

68% of players on opening rosters were not first round draft picks.

Drafting high helps some for sure, especially in some draft years but there are NHL players found all over the draft (and beyond).

To me, it`s defeatist to say, we don`t draft high, so don`t expect anything. Or was it expect the unexpected?

I didn't say expect nothing but it's a fact that it's a lot tougher to nail your draft picks later in the draft.

But seriously we just graduated 2 players this year and that number could be 3 if Mete stays for the whole season...

 

[NobleSix]

Blow it up. The sooner the better. This roster blows.

 

[NobleSix]

double post, delete

 

[JohnLennon]

Now that we've seen the product of MB's summer from hell on the ice, I think it's pretty clear that we have nowhere to go from here but down.

That is the opposite of the truth. The Habs are top 5 in the league in Shots/Game, and they're also top 5 in Shots Against/Game. So we are at the top of the league in generating shots, while being among the league best in restricting shots. The issue with small sample sizes like this, is that bad luck (extremely, unsustainably-low shooting percentage, combined with higher-than-normal shooting percentage against) is magnified substantially and people panic without looking into any context. So, the opposite of what you said is true: there is nowhere to go but up, considering the statistics.

If these weren't facts, I'd be a little more worried. It's been 4 games, relax.

 

[Chili]

I didn't say expect nothing but it's a fact that it's a lot tougher to nail your draft picks later in the draft.

But seriously we just graduated 2 players this year and that number could be 3 if Mete stays for the whole season...

Note my correction above, should have read 62% of players on opening rosters were not first rounders (or 38% were).

3 young players like Hudon, Mete and DeLaRose earning roster spots was a good sign. Hopefully they can continue to improve and solidy their place on the team.

Even in the Habs glory years, it was common place that young players were forcing out older players to grab roster spots.

When it becomes a regular occurrence each season, would be a sign to me they are pointed in the right direction.

The young players need to continue to improve though and not just end up back in the minors or out of the league.

 

[JohnLennon]

Draft better? Its not like all the teams with top prospect pools tanked to get those prospects. People like to bring up the Leafs as a tank job done correctly, but the difference makers they got in the draft were Matthews, Nylander and Marner (maybe Kadri). The rest of the roster is built with trades and savvier picks lower down in the line-up. Montreal had 3 elite difference makers on the team when Bergevin came in.

Carolina built an amazing D core out of draft picks in a 5 year window and only two were lottery picks.

From 2009 to 2013, entirely outside of the 1st round, they drafted Dumolin, Faulk, Slavin and Pesce.

Matthews (1st overall), Marner (4th overall), Nylander 8th overall), Rielly (5th overall), Kadri (7th overall), and traded their 5th overall pick (Luke Schenn) for a 2nd overall pick (JVR). Even Jake Gardiner, if you want to consider him as a core player, was a 17th overall pick. The difference for the Leafs is not their savvy late round picks. Their entire effective core is built up of picks made 8th overall or higher. That's 6+ years of drafting in the top 10.

The Habs haven't ever had that luxury, if you want to call decades of losing a luxury.

 

[Bryson]

Maybe Gainey could have pulled it off. Maybe. No way Gauthier could have though. The team did not draft well under his leadership and didn't really develop all that well. Neither could really make a pro-level trade to save their lives outside of TDL deals. And Gauthier systematically tore down the amateur scouting staff he inherited.

I agree I preferred Gainey as GM with Gauthier as #2 but Gauthier's tenure as GM was way too short to make any definitive conclusion. He drafted Tinordi who I am convinced this regime completely ruined, Beaulieu, Nygren and Gallagher. Traded Wizniewski, Gill and Kostistsyn before they fell off a cliff which became Hudon(this teams future savior) and JDLR as well as Fucale. Traded purse snatcher O'Byrne for Bournival who many were high on and fell off because of concussions.

You say he can't make a trade to save his life outside of TDL. false. Firstly Dominic Moore was a great pickup but he also singed 35 Goal scorer Erik Cole and got Emelin to finally sign here. He kept bad boy Carey Price over fan favorite Halak and kept Markov despite never even knowing if he was ever going to play again or benefit from his services. Markov went on to put up a 50 point season and Price won all 4 awards in a single season. He also executed a tank to perfection which landed this team Galchenyuk.

So many of his decisions had a hand in shaping the team today. You say he tore down the amateur scouting but the team was being sold. It is not uncommon for a company to cut staff in order to cook the books before a sale. This is common knowledge.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Matthews (1st overall), Marner (4th overall), Nylander 8th overall), Rielly (5th overall), Kadri (7th overall), and traded their 5th overall pick (Luke Schenn) for a 2nd overall pick (JVR). Even Jake Gardiner, if you want to consider him as a core player, was a 17th overall pick. The difference for the Leafs is not their savvy late round picks. Their entire effective core is built up of picks made 8th overall or higher. That's 6+ years of drafting in the top 10.

The Habs haven't ever had that luxury, if you want to call decades of losing a luxury.

JVR was a trade and Schenn was already a depreciated asset then. On Reilly, I know he's hyped up a lot, but he's more of 2nd pairing guy in the NHL. Gardiner was a trade too.

 

[Tyson]

Why does it seem that Canadian franchises are not run as well as American based teams? Can’t use the Canadian dollar and being outspent anymore. Why then are there no contenders in Canada?

 

[Captain Mountain]

I agree I preferred Gainey as GM with Gauthier as #2 but Gauthier's tenure as GM was way too short to make any definitive conclusion. He drafted Tinordi who I am convinced this regime completely ruined, Beaulieu, Nygren and Gallagher. Traded Wizniewski, Gill and Kostistsyn before they fell off a cliff which became Hudon(this teams future savior) and JDLR as well as Fucale. Traded purse snatcher O'Byrne for Bournival who many were high on and fell off because of concussions.

Tinordi is a dying breed of D-man. He was never going to bring offense or good puck movement. I really don't think he was a fit in the new NHL even if the regime developed him properly. Nygren was a good flyer, but he's not here. Wiz had his best seasons in Columbus. Gill and Kostitsyn were just rentals. Hudon was a good pick, but the 5th had no significant value on its own. JDLR is honestly nothing special and Fucale stinks. Bournival for O'Byrne was ok, but Bournival always had a limited ceiling.

You say he can't make a trade to save his life outside of TDL. false. Firstly Dominic Moore was a great pickup but he also singed 35 Goal scorer Erik Cole and got Emelin to finally sign here. He kept bad boy Carey Price over fan favorite Halak and kept Markov despite never even knowing if he was ever going to play again or benefit from his services. Markov went on to put up a 50 point season and Price won all 4 awards in a single season. He also executed a tank to perfection which landed this team Galchenyuk.

Moore was a TDL trade. Cole was a signing, not a trade. Emelin was also a signing. Keeping Price over Halak is what most experts suggested, but credit to him for following through on that. Sticking by Markov was right, but its not like it was a savvy decision either, I know most people outside the Montreal bubble thought it was the right thing to do.

And he didn't execute a tank, he flailed around from bad move to bad move and the team lucked and sucked to a high draft pick. If Montreal misses the playoffs this year and gets a high pick, is that because Bergevin executed a tank too?

So many of his decisions had a hand in shaping the team today. You say he tore down the amateur scouting but the team was being sold. It is not uncommon for a company to cut staff in order to cook the books before a sale. This is common knowledge.

He tore it down before Gillette was in a position to sell the team.

 

[Bryson]

Why does it seem that Canadian franchises are not run as well as American based teams? Can’t use the Canadian dollar and being outspent anymore. Why then are there no contenders in Canada?

Because they got fat and lazy. However the new stream lined and improved Oilers and Toronto along with Ottawa may change that soon enough. I think that the Jets and Calgary are not far behind either. It may be the Canadian team's time to shine soon enough.

 

[Captain Mountain]

Because they got fat and lazy. However the new stream lined and improved Oilers and Toronto along with Orrawa may change that soon enough. I think that the Jets and Calgary are not far behind either. It may be the Canadian team's time to shine soon enough.

The Oilers are still not run well. They've just amassed enough assets and have the best player in the world to be competitive. The Hall trade is still heinous and they think Russell is a top-4 D-man.

Jets will be good eventually, but they need a new coach, an actually good goalie and some help on LHD.