Is Gordie Howe Overrated?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by Overrated, Jan 16, 2018.

  1. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Another opinion about Gordie Drillon differs:

    http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140401629/

    Short, solid interesting career.
     
  2. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2010
    Messages:
    9,168
    Likes Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    109
    FYI, the join date of every user can be found in the box right below the username.
     
  3. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    6,406
    Likes Received:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Home Page:
    In my own list of 7 0r so years ago I put Hasek at #4. Above Lemieux. I felt peak Hasek influenced games to greater degree than peak Lemieux. I'm not sure I still feel the same way, but at least this position is defensible.

    Howe is virtually untouchable.
     
  4. danincanada

    danincanada Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    96
    Right, and even though the Maratimes have never produced loads of elite players it’s still better now this it was back in the O6 and pre-O6.

    It’s also extremely telling that you bring up Mike Buckna, who may have contributed greatly to Hockey but did not add to the NHL talent stream from BC directly. Look what came from BC after the O6. Not even comparable.
     
  5. quoipourquoi

    quoipourquoi Goaltender

    Joined:
    Jan 26, 2009
    Messages:
    7,139
    Likes Received:
    342
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Hockeytown, MI
    I'm not sure what part of "do not speculate publicly about what the moderation staff does or does not do" was unclear.
     
    TheDevilMadeMe and Killion like this.
  6. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Maritimes did produce the early hockey and James Creighton who popularized and grew hockey soon after confederation.

    James Creighton (ice hockey) - Wikipedia

    BC and the Maritimes operated as company towns, closed shops. The Patricks established the PCHA in 1911 due to family logging interests. Imported and produced local talent. Interior BC with company towns - Trail, Penticton, Kimberley, Nelson, etc produced dominant Senior hockey teams. A job, benefits and hockey allowed the players a financial package superior to the NHL without the additional cost of leaving home and family. See Seth Martin:

    Seth Martin - Wikipedia

    Puzzled why you think anyone years ago O6 era and before had an obligation to accept an NHL contract when other employers offered more? Mike Buckna in the 1930s was offered more from Czechoslovakia. Wouldn't it be common sense to accept the better offer?

    Also your view of early hockey and players colours your narrative. Perhaps a comparison across eras including Gordie Drillon will illustrate the quality and strength of players thru the history of the NHL.
     
  7. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2010
    Messages:
    9,168
    Likes Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    109
    I've pointed this out to you time and time again, but if you want we can keep doing this forever. So here we go again: No-one is saying anyone had an obligation to accept an NHL contract. The fact there were better offers available just explains why the NHL talent pool was smaller, it does not debunk the claim that the NHL talent pool was smaller.
     
  8. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Not the point which is there was always a pool of NHL quality talent outside the NHL. This is evident in the 1967 expansion, minor league hockey, senior, international and university hockey before and after.

    For the hockey talent pool to be SMALLER you would have to show that at various points the NHL teams were not able to find qualified talent anywhere to meet game day roster requirements. This never happened. The closest you might come would be individual teams having financial issues producing weak rosters but inevitably outside the team(s) in question there were NHL quality players available.

    Very easy to show that regardless of era the available NHL quality talent was there BUT for various reasons it was not strictly concentrated in the NHL. Be it for financial reasons, educational opportunities, military obligations and so forth.

    The issue and this is what has been avoided is how much larger than the total NHL team requirements was the talent pool.

    Someone accepting a better offer or a different career path does not erase their hockey skills. Nor does any type of temporary retirement from the NHL, injury, personal situation etc.
     
  9. blogofmike

    blogofmike Registered User

    Joined:
    Dec 16, 2010
    Messages:
    1,293
    Likes Received:
    59
    Trophy Points:
    71
    Finishing in the Top 1 probably doesn't change, but the oft-cited Top 5 for 2 decades line could be. There are going to be a lot more opportunities to post a high point total in a 21 or 31 team league. In a 6-team league, Howe had a few seasons near the end of the O6 where he would be 8th to 12th in ES scoring, but edge past a few guys on the basis that he had a far greater PP role.

    It doesn't really change a whole lot. If he were "just" Top 10 for 2 decades, it would still be something only Howe had the longevity and health to pull off.
     
    TheDevilMadeMe likes this.
  10. danincanada

    danincanada Registered User

    Joined:
    Feb 11, 2008
    Messages:
    2,030
    Likes Received:
    17
    Trophy Points:
    96
    This makes no sense. We are talking about the talent pool feeding the NHL. If great players choose to play elsewhere, can’t play in the the NHL for political reasons, or due to personal situations or injury, that takes away from the talent pool feeding the league. You’re trying to skirt around this constantly and it just shows you can’t form a strong rebuttal.

    This debate was over before it started.
     
  11. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Two distinct concepts and groups. The ready talent pool of NHL quality players and the feeder pool of future hockey players who eventually will be NHL ready.

    You and a few others conflate or interchange the two groups.

    Ready talent playing elsewhere never takes away from the total amount of NHL ready talent. Like grains of sand on an ocean beach this talent pool just takes a different shape with each wave.

    The feeder talent pool is another group all together. Varying distances away from the beach.
     
  12. Theokritos

    Theokritos Moderator

    Joined:
    Apr 6, 2010
    Messages:
    9,168
    Likes Received:
    652
    Trophy Points:
    109
    Since we're arguing about the competition O6 players faced in relation to later era players, the pool of "NHL quality talent outside of the NHL" is exactly the opposite of what we're talking about. We're debating the pool of talent actually feeding the NHL.

    Except that we're talking about "smaller" in relation to later times when there were a lot more teams. Whether the six NHL teams of the pre-1967 era were able to find enough talent to meet their own roster requirements is of no primary consequence for the question whether the talent pool available to the NHL in the O6 era was smaller than the talent pool feeding the NHL in a later era.
     
  13. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    In theory and on the ice are two different things. One is academic, the other is applied

    Prime example Charles Hudon on the 2017-18 Canadiens. Third tier talent, roughly 13-18th on the team and virtually all present day NHL teams, or lower. Rarely a healthy scratch. Only attribute, fast skater that does not fall down. At times open ice opportunities arise and surprise him. See his claim to fame.

    http://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/140405201/

    At least Charles Hudon did not fall down. O6 era NHL, he would be a depth forward on a Senior semi-pro team, no NHL training camp invite, roughly 1200 to 1500 range in a Canadian talent pool system.

    Today in an International talent pool feeder system to the NHL no replacement can be found for a player who is roughly ranked in the 500-700 NHL range. Effectively you have roughly 40-50% of NHL players who are NHL players in name only or by default.

    Using Charles Hudon as an example because he actually has a bit more talent than those who lack talent to be isolated and immortalized on video.

    Setting aside the desire to split hairs, the elite mature adult hockey talent pool going back to the NHA/PCHA days to today has been relatively constant.

    Keeping the elite talent, polishing it and having them play at an elite level for an optimum level has always been a challenge.
     
  14. Sentinel

    Sentinel Registered User

    Joined:
    May 26, 2009
    Messages:
    6,406
    Likes Received:
    210
    Trophy Points:
    81
    Location:
    New Jersey
    Home Page:
    I'm sorry, what is the basis for you stating this? How can you be so sure?
     
  15. Voight

    Voight #winning #TMLWagon2K18

    Joined:
    Feb 8, 2012
    Messages:
    18,523
    Likes Received:
    568
    Trophy Points:
    140
    Location:
    Gyalchester
    Somehow being in the top 5 of scoring for over a decade doesn't mean anything if you played before the 1980s.

    [​IMG]
     
    Killion likes this.
  16. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Video or gif is rather clear about the not falling down part. Plus watching Hudon from Midget onwards.

    Well over 50 years of critically watching hockey. One of our home rinks featured junior, minor pro and senior hockey, touring European teams, international teams.

    After awhile the indicators are there.
     
  17. ChuckLefley

    ChuckLefley Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    46
    While I do consider Howe to be one of the greats, I do think his legend has become so romanticized that I can see people thinking he really wasn’t one of the greats.

    Tales of his greatness always make his dirty play sound like a good thing.
    The “Gordie Howe Hat Trick” something he did a whopping two times.

    As two examples.
     
  18. The Panther

    The Panther Registered User

    Joined:
    Mar 25, 2014
    Messages:
    6,767
    Likes Received:
    820
    Trophy Points:
    94
    Location:
    Tokyo, Japan
    First of all, did he really do this only two times? I've heard the stats are only recorded back to a certain period, after his prime...

    Second, does anyone care how many times he did it? It's a trivial thing that's irrelevant to his legend.

    For me, I can't at all see anyone's excuse for under-valuing Howe. Basically, if you don't think Howe was one of the 3 or 4 greatest players ever, you can't be my friend. ;)
     
    Howie Hodge and Sentinel like this.
  19. Johnny Engine

    Johnny Engine Moderator

    Joined:
    Jul 29, 2009
    Messages:
    3,108
    Likes Received:
    160
    Trophy Points:
    81
    I'm not sure fights really work as a counting stat. If someone never fights and still carries the reputation of the baddest mother in town, that's great. And if they're constantly losing their temper and taking themselves out of the play, that's bad.
     
  20. Mike Farkas

    Mike Farkas Grace Personified

    Joined:
    Jun 28, 2006
    Messages:
    7,647
    Likes Received:
    217
    Trophy Points:
    111
    Location:
    PA
    As someone who is 5'9, 160 lbs., I generally steer towards fighting people weaker than me...just seems like a good business model...
     
    Killion and blogofmike like this.
  21. ChuckLefley

    ChuckLefley Registered User

    Joined:
    Jan 5, 2016
    Messages:
    549
    Likes Received:
    111
    Trophy Points:
    46
    Stats have been recorded since before Howe played. I have seen a Rangers vs. Maroons score sheet from 1932 that has goals, assists and penalties on it.

    It is relevant because it shows how his legend has been enhanced by the media. They named something after him even though he rarely accomplished it because it helped push the idea that he was such a complete player.

    As I said, he is one of the top players of all time, but I can see how his legend has become romanticized.
     
    Killion likes this.
  22. Canadiens1958

    Canadiens1958 Registered User

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2007
    Messages:
    16,553
    Likes Received:
    600
    Trophy Points:
    179
    Gender:
    Male
    Occupation:
    Retired
    Location:
    Lake Memphremagog, QC.
    Into the 1960s in Canada, youngsters had militia training via cadets(armed forces)- self-defence and a number of grade schools and community centers had boxing, junior and senior Golden Gloves. Some of the youngsters also played hockey, including later in the NHL. Size was never a factor.

    A number of Lady Byng types - Red Kelly, Don Marshall, others had a boxing background.
     
  23. K Fleur

    K Fleur Intangibles Per Game

    Joined:
    Mar 28, 2014
    Messages:
    2,870
    Likes Received:
    1,502
    Trophy Points:
    94
    I also think there is too much of a focus of this kind of stuff, Mr. Elbows, Howe Hatrick, etc., by the media and not enough focus on what Howe really accomplished throughout his career.

    Howe was the best player of his time, the best winger of all time, and the only player who I can at least see/understand the reasoning for someone ranking him ahead Gretzky.
     
  24. BenchBrawl

    BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

    Joined:
    Jul 26, 2010
    Messages:
    17,301
    Likes Received:
    523
    Trophy Points:
    139
    I always remember Gordie Howe's card appearing in The Simpsons.
     
  25. daver

    daver Registered User

    Joined:
    Apr 4, 2003
    Messages:
    14,159
    Likes Received:
    471
    Trophy Points:
    199
    Home Page:
    Unless there is some statistical evidence to the contrary, you have to believe that a dominant talent from one era would be dominant in another. Trying to measure dominance from a six team league to a 21 or 30 team league requires some reasonable context.

    I don't see where talent from supposedly weaker eras struggled to maintain their stature with expansion or more European players so it is all conjecture IMO. The OP recognizes Orr as a GOAT yet doesn't seem to realize that he was playing against players that were stars in Orr's era and in the O6.
     
    TheDevilMadeMe likes this.

Share This Page

monitoring_string = "358c248ada348a047a4b9bb27a146148"