Is Gordie Howe Overrated?

[Theokritos]

I agree that Howe is clearly overrated. The players of his era in general are quite lacking. They lacked the physical abilities, skills and competition of stronger generations.

I'll tell you about a real top four player of all time - Joe Malone. Unlike players of Howe's era, Malone had the physical ability to play a whole 60 minutes per game. Players in subsequent generations lack such endurance. Howe didn't have to face players skilled in areas like hook checking, since obviously subsequent players lacked these skills. Howe's competition was also lacking. Howe dominated a league with six teams. Malone dominated in a world when the talent level was so deep that there were multiple top level leagues, no way Howe did that. Competition was so fierce in Malone's time that some top leagues actually used six skaters per team on the ice at a time. I'd like to see what Howe would do with six skaters attempting to stop him. Not as well as Malone I bet, based on my rock solid evidence. Statistically there is no comparison. Howe never scored goals at a 2.2 goals per game pace like Malone did in the NHL. Howe even played after they put in offensively advantageous rules like the forward pass and he STILL couldn't come close to scoring like Malone. No contest.

In any event, disagreeing with the facts I laid out above is just silly. Howe has no case against Malone. Don't even get me started on the players of subsequent generations. Their competition just wasn't strong enough.

This shall henceforth be known as the "Common Sense" argument.

 

[overpass]

Howe played in 46-47 when the average amount of goals was 6.32. Did that affect his scoring and made him score way more? Nope! 22 points in 58 games.

Gordie Howe was 18 years old in 1946-47. Just playing a regular shift in the NHL at age 18 was impressive back then.

There were quite a few 18 year olds who played regularly during WWII, when the talent level was significantly lower due to regular players joining the war effort. But during the post-war Original Six era (1945-46 to 1966-67), only two 18 year olds played a regular shift in the NHL. Gordie Howe in 1946-47 and Bobby Orr in 1966-67. It was a very tough league for a young player.

 

[Theokritos]

Additional mod note:

I feel for you guys, but once again: make counter-arguments instead of complaining about the thread or its author.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Tell me, what percentage of the league back then was from Ontario and Quebec? Make the criteria a minimum of 30 games played. I guarantee it will be well over 75%.

During the Original Six era, the NHL didn't have very much talent from outside of Ontario and Quebec... if you exclude the following Hall of Famers:

Gordie Howe, Stan Mikita, Andy Bathgate, Norm Ullman, John Bucyk, Bert Olmstead, Bill Gadsby, Tom Johnson, Fern Flaman, Ken Reardon, Jack Stewart, Babe Pratt, Elmer Lach, Sid Abel, Bill Mosienko, Max Bentley, Doug Bentley, Clint Smith, Bryan Hextall, Terry Sawchuk, Glen Hall, Johnny Bower, Chuck Rayner, Frank Brimsek and Turk Broda.

 

[pappyline]

Gordie Howe was 18 years old in 1946-47. Just playing a regular shift in the NHL at age 18 was impressive back then.

There were quite a few 18 year olds who played regularly during WWII, when the talent level was significantly lower due to regular players joining the war effort. But during the post-war Original Six era (1945-46 to 1966-67), only two 18 year olds played a regular shift in the NHL. Gordie Howe in 1946-47 and Bobby Orr in 1966-67. It was a very tough league for a young player.

Add Bobby Hull. He was playing a regular shift as an 18 year old in 57-58 but your point still stands.

 

[Michael Farkas]

As a general rule of thumb, the tie to league quality is goals per game. The higher the goals per game, the weaker the talent pool is. The lower, the more competitive it is. This is seen plainly in respective verticals.

The best players have the ability to be multi-dimensional, as you dilute the talent pool, the skills fall off and deteriorate on a given spectrum or arc. Thus, the ballooning of scoring in the 1970's and 80's. The amount of pro teams went from six in 1966 to, roughly (and someone check me on this), 40 trillion by 1979. The teams out-paced the talent pool and stretched it too thin, so scoring goes up. As things normalized, coaching, defense, goaltending caught up to the scoring talent...one dimensional players started to lessen (or wise up) and scoring went down...only artificially inflated for a year and a half by the silly no-touching rules that got half the league's bell rung.

Howe in some seasons is probably shooting on a HOF goaltender, what, 50, 55, 60 nights in a season? Wayne Gretzky is getting tucks on Murray Bannerman...Wayne-o saw a HOF goalie, what, three nights a year? Six?

It's not a slight on Gretzky. He made the best of his situation. Howe made the best of his. The film is available to track the game back through history (and I would strongly recommend backwards) - that is clearly not being appreciated by our appropriately-named author here...as a coach at a decently-high level, I have a huge advantage of knowing what I know about the last 75 years of hockey and I use it. I also have a huge appreciation for how well-played the game was in the years leading up to the big expansion. That wasn't a Sunday skate through expansion teams...

 

[canucks4ever]

During the Original Six era, the NHL didn't have very much talent from outside of Ontario and Quebec... if you exclude the following Hall of Famers:

Gordie Howe, Stan Mikita, Andy Bathgate, Norm Ullman, John Bucyk, Bert Olmstead, Bill Gadsby, Tom Johnson, Fern Flaman, Ken Reardon, Jack Stewart, Babe Pratt, Elmer Lach, Sid Abel, Bill Mosienko, Max Bentley, Doug Bentley, Clint Smith, Bryan Hextall, Terry Sawchuk, Glen Hall, Johnny Bower, Chuck Rayner, Frank Brimsek and Turk Broda.

Mikita was trained and raised to play hockey in Ontario. You named a bunch of goalies and defensemen over three different decades. How about from 1958 to 1967, the last 10 seasons of the original 6 era. You tell me the percentage of players that were actually not from Ontario and Quebec and keep the list strictly to people who played over 30 games.

 

[VanIslander]

The message of several on this thread:

O6-era players SUCK!

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Mikita was trained and raised to play hockey in Ontario. You named a bunch of goalies and defensemen over three different decades. How about from 1958 to 1967, the last 10 seasons of the original 6 era. You tell me the percentage of players that were actually not from Ontario and Quebec and keep the list strictly to people who played over 30 games.

You tell me. The data's freely available. I'm not going to do your research for you.

 

[canucks4ever]

You tell me. The data's freely available. I'm not going to do your research for you.

LOL, if you want to quote my points then you should learn how to answer my statements properly. Naming a bunch of defensemen and goalies over 3 decades isnt really going to prove your point. Half the list you gave were guys that peaked during the world war 2 40s era anyways.

 

[Canadiens1958]

1953 is an odd year.

Looking at team GF totals, no one but Detroit was scoring goals. 4 of the 6 teams (not Chicago) scored 152-156 goals. That's bad. In 1952 Chicago was the league worst with 158. In 1954 Chicago had a league-worst 133. But from 1950-55, 4 of the worst 6 team GF totals happened in 1953, affecting 2/3 of the league. Chicago was 2nd in 1953 with 169, which isn't strong (T-19th for 50-55).

You'd think it would balance out because Detroit was killing people, but their team GF and GA was average for Detroit. There's just a goal scoring market failure in 1953. I don't know what to make of it. Is that just what happened if Montreal had an off year?

Injuries and lost games plagued four teams during the RS

Montreal lost Lach for 17 and Moore for 46 games. Boston Peirson for 21 and Labine for 19. Toronto Kennedy for 27 and Armstrong for 18 while Max Bentley only played 36. New York lost promising winger Herb Dickenson to a career ending eye injury after 11 games while Edgar Laprade only played 11 games.

 

[Bear of Bad News]

LOL, if you want to quote my points then you should learn how to answer my statements properly.

We have many conditions that members must follow in our site rules. Answering your statements "properly" is not one of the required conditions.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

LOL, if you want to quote my points then you should learn how to answer my statements properly. Naming a bunch of defensemen and goalies over 3 decades isnt really going to prove your point. Half the list you gave were guys that peaked during the world war 2 40s era anyways.

What's wrong with defensemen and goalies?

Your post (#123) specifically mentions the Original Six era. This is universally defined as 1942-43 to 1966-67. You seem to have some other time frame in mind (since you're now talking about only the last ten years of that era), but you didn't bring that up before.

What I'd suggest is clearly define what time frame you're looking at and which positions you're looking at. Then do some research to substantiate your claim (you said you "guarantee" that "well over 75%" of NHL players were from Ontario and Quebec only). Then post your research and we'll discuss it. Until then, you're just throwing out statements with no evidence.

 

[canucks4ever]

What's wrong with defensemen and goalies?

Your post (#123) specifically mentions the Original Six era. This is universally defined as 1942-43 to 1966-67. You seem to have some other time frame in mind (since you're now talking about only the last ten years of that era), but you didn't bring that up before.

What I'd suggest is clearly define what time frame you're looking at and which positions you're looking at. Then do some research to substantiate your claim (you said you "guarantee" that "well over 75%" of NHL players were from Ontario and Quebec only). Then post your research and we'll discuss it. Until then, you're just throwing out statements with no evidence.

My post stated that the era lacked talent from BC, United States and Foreign Europeans. So why did you name a bunch of players from Alberta to Manitoba. Just because you were able to compile a list of those guys doesnt mean that the era wasn't Ontario and Quebec heavy.

I just looked up the top 80 scorers from 1958 to 1967, it is heavily balanced towards Ontario and Quebec just like I predicted.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

My post stated that the era lacked talent from BC, United States and Foreign Europeans. So why did you name a bunch of players from Alberta to Manitoba.

Because that's what you asked for:

Tell me, what percentage of the league back then was from Ontario and Quebec? Make the criteria a minimum of 30 games played. I guarantee it will be well over 75%.

Alberta, Saskatchewan and Manitoba aren't in Ontario and Quebec.

You need to clearly define what provinces you're talking about, which years, and which positions. Otherwise the conversation is pointless as you're continually changing what criteria you're using.

 

[canucks4ever]

Because that's what you asked for:



Alberta and Manitoba aren't in Ontario and Quebec.

You need to clearly define what provinces you're talking about, which years, and which positions. Otherwise the conversation is pointless as you're continually changing what criteria you're using.

When did i say the nhl was 100% quebec and ontario? You needed to bring up those names because you couldnt name any forwards from bc or usa, its that simple.

The top 30 scorers from the last 8 years of 0-6, 25/30 were from Ontario and Quebec. Which is roughly 83.3%, now im sure if you posted the stats for every player including third liners and goalies, it would bring the percentage down to 75%, but my point stands.

 

[Canadiens1958]

What's wrong with defensemen and goalies?

Your post (#123) specifically mentions the Original Six era. This is universally defined as 1942-43 to 1966-67. You seem to have some other time frame in mind (since you're now talking about only the last ten years of that era), but you didn't bring that up before.

What I'd suggest is clearly define what time frame you're looking at and which positions you're looking at. Then do some research to substantiate your claim (you said you "guarantee" that "well over 75%" of NHL players were from Ontario and Quebec only). Then post your research and we'll discuss it. Until then, you're just throwing out statements with no evidence.

1952-53 season Canadiens used 31 players, 16 from Quebec and Ontario, 1 American, 14 from the rest of Canada.

Given the 1951 Canadian Census:

Canada 1951 Census - Wikipedia

fairly in line with provincial proportions.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

When did i say the nhl was 100% quebec and ontario? You needed to bring up those names because you couldnt name any forwards from bc or usa, its that simple.

The top 30 scorers from the last 8 years of 0-6, 25/30 were from Ontario and Quebec. Which is roughly 83.3%, now im sure if you posted the stats for every player including third liners and goalies, it would bring the percentage down to 75%, but my point stands.

In the past few posts you've gone from looking only at all players to only at forwards, from the entire Original Six era to just the last ten years (and now apparently the last eight years), and from looking only Ontario and Quebec to also apparently including Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Like I was saying - define your terms clearly and stick to them. You keep changing your parameters, which makes it impossible to have a conversation.

 

[canucks4ever]

In the past few posts you've gone from looking only at all players to only at forwards, from the entire Original Six era to just the last ten years (and now apparently the last eight years), and from looking only Ontario and Quebec to also apparently including Manitoba, Saskatchewan and Alberta.

Like I was saying - define your terms clearly and stick to them. You keep changing your parameters, which makes it impossible to have a conversation.

What are you talking about? You quoted me in a post where I said they lacked players from BC, United and most of the maritimes. You are just ranting all over the place. You just dont want to answer the original question because you cant name forwards from those regions. Keep up your lawyer talk. Quote me and you cant even address my point, lol.

Why can't you name players from BC and the US in large numbers? Because you can't, its that simple.

[Mod: Don't be condescending.]

 

[Hockey Outsider]

Let's refresh ourselves on what you said:

Tell me, what percentage of the league back then was from Ontario and Quebec? Make the criteria a minimum of 30 games played. I guarantee it will be well over 75%.

How about from 1958 to 1967, the last 10 seasons of the original 6 era. You tell me the percentage of players that were actually not from Ontario and Quebec and keep the list strictly to people who played over 30 games.

Okay, so it sounds like our parameters are pretty clear:

• The time frame is the "the last 10 seasons of the original 6 era" - 1957-58 to 1966-67.
• The term was "players" - sounds like any player, regardless of position, would qualify.
• The location is players "not from Ontario and Quebec"
• The threshold is players who played over 30 games. I assume this is regular season only.

There were 267 players who played 30+ regular season games from 1957-58 to 1966-67. If "well over" 75% of the league was from Ontario and Quebec, we'd expect no more than 66 players from outside those two provinces (and probably quite a bit less, if the percentage is "well over" three-quarters).

There were actually 92 players who were from outside Ontario and Quebec. I'm not going to list them all, but it should be self-evident as it's easy to cross-check that number. So instead of being "well over 75%", it turned out to be less than two-thirds.

 

[danincanada]

That's simply because it was different. If you take the raw registration numbers at face value, you run into the following problems:

I have no doubts that the recording of national registration statistics were not accurate back in the 40’s, and 12 fold seems very high, but it still begs to question, at what point did Canada have 50,000, 100,000, 200,000, etc., hockey players in organized leagues in the country? It was certainly a gradual process and it was very much a young sport at the start of the last century.

During the 25 years of the O6, which also falls closely in line with the baby boom, the country saw its population nearly double. Not only were there far more children to play hockey but there was a general societal prosperity taking place that allowed them to. Don’t lose sight of the fact that the baby boomers only started to play in the NHL at the very end of the O6. Maybe the O6ers has a different mentality due to the era they grew up in but that doesn’t mean they had more talent or faced as much competition.

With this in mind, and the obvious absence of Americans and Europeans, it should be very clear that the O6 lacked in terms of a deep talent pool. That doesn’t mean Canada didn’t still produce great players but the amount of great players probably pales in comparison with what came later.

 

[ImporterExporter]

Please, for the love of God stop this thread. It really has run its course.



That is Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux saying Gordie was the greatest ever.

 

[BROCK HUGHES]

Gordie Howe. By far!

His greatness lies in his seemingly never-ending career. If he retired 15 years earlier nobody would even mention him in any top list. Not to mention he peaked in the 50s when nobody could even play hockey (or any sport really).

The true big 4 is:

Gretzky
Orr
Lemieux
Hasek

I know Canadian extremists will get mad but yes, there are non Canadians in the top 10.

I hope you don't ban me because I am not trolling, this post is dead serious.

Wow,,your not serious,,,Howe and Orr are 1 and 2 ,,they played hockey with shit equipment,,and skates and sticks,,,and way more physical play back then.To do what they did ,,with what they had is crazy good..Gretzkey never would have survived back then.

 

[bert]

>played in a non-international league with 6 teams when hockey was 10 times less competitive
>still didn't get higher PPG during his peak years than many many players who played in way more competitive eras
Lmao!

Which stat metric did you use to come up with this pretty number.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

I have no doubts that the recording of national registration statistics were not accurate back in the 40’s, and 12 fold seems very high, but it still begs to question, at what point did Canada have 50,000, 100,000, 200,000, etc., hockey players in organized leagues in the country? It was certainly a gradual process and it was very much a young sport at the start of the last century.

During the 25 years of the O6, which also falls closely in line with the baby boom, the country saw its population nearly double. Not only were there far more children to play hockey but there was a general societal prosperity taking place that allowed them to. Don’t lose sight of the fact that the baby boomers only started to play in the NHL at the very end of the O6. Maybe the O6ers has a different mentality due to the era they grew up in but that doesn’t mean they had more talent or faced as much competition.

With this in mind, and the obvious absence of Americans and Europeans, it should be very clear that the O6 lacked in terms of a deep talent pool. That doesn’t mean Canada didn’t still produce great players but the amount of great players probably pales in comparison with what came later.

are we assuming that players playing organized hockey are superior to players skating on real or proverbial ponds?

from my experience, which is kind of extreme because it was in both the warmest and the most expensive part of the country, i would have been a much much better player if i'd been able to just play outside instead of having access to 3-4 hours of icetime a week as a registered player in an organized league.

and as we start looking at registration numbers, are we accounting for how many are playing serious, competitive hockey and how many (like me) were playing completely for fun in house leagues? i certainly wouldn't count myself, or any of the hundreds of kids i played with and against in many leagues over my childhood and adolescence, as constituents of any "talent pool."

to extrapolate that, even if i happened to be really really good i seriously doubt i would have pursued the pro hockey path because, first i wouldn't have wanted to devote 50+ hours of my week to hockey, my parents certainly didn't want to invest that much time in it, and even if we all wanted it who could afford that, or make the necessary financial and lifestyle (and for parents, professional) sacrifices to be able to afford that very very very minute chance to make a living at the game as one of the 500-600-odd best players in the world? i'm willing to bet this is a common position for the majority of registered organized hockey players in the country.

so to respond back to that original request for the registration numbers (not you, @danincanada), i don't think that's useful data.