Is Gordie Howe Overrated?

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danincanada

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By the way, does anyone have historical numbers of registered players in Canada? I could not find anything from before the 2000s. That would illustrate quite clearly how soft the competition was back then.

There was a nice rundown of it floating around before but I'm not sure if it still exists after the format change on these boards. It was done by a poster named BraveCanadian. If you take those raw numbers at face value then it backs up a lot of your points but most posters in this section will just say the registration system was different back then and/or that everyone played pond hockey so it didn't matter.

I don't know about Howe being the most overrated player of all-time, but I do think the Original 6 in general gets very overrated here. Only really Canadians playing in the league, and those Canadians came from a small population with fairly low birth rates and it wasn't even all of Canada. The league expanded because they sport started to expand. North America had a baby boom and the Soviets started to really show their stuff, and they weren't even in the NHL. It's quite a stretch to compare that with the international NHL of today and pretend they are on equal footing in terms of how many great players are in each era.
 

Canadiens1958

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Mind if I join the game?:laugh:

From 2017 Ottawa Senators strength and conditioning coach comments about the overall athleticism of present day elite hockey players:

Senators strength coach alarmed over declining youth athletic skills

Short version-today's players may be better trained but are not nearly as polished or complete as athletes.

This brings us to the next point about post WWII hockey players.

Trust the seminal poster may have heard about Jaroslav Drobny:
Jaroslav Drobný - Wikipedia

Elite world class tennis and hockey player. You do not have such athletes today. This goes to the point in the article about overall athleticism. Fact of the matter is that an NHL team - Boston, in 1949 was willing to pay him $20,000 and bypass the extensive Hockey triage system speaks to Drobny's skill level.

The post WWII hockey triage system precluded 900 skaters in a league. Players were slotted NHL followed by AHL which was slightly weaker then the QSHL/WHL down to various Senior hockey levels. No need include all under one umbrella especially since they could not perform.

Conversely in today's NHL with 900+ players, how many can actually skate with McDavid? The gap between McDavid's skating ability and his teammates or linemates is huge. Lucic and Maroon on the ice with McDavid look like they are walking in sand. This tends to suppress McDavid's performance since he has to skate down to their level or effectively play outnumbered.

As for registration numbers in Canada and the rest of the world. Into the seventies, Canadian amateur hockey failed to see the need of tracking the registration of levels below the old Pee Wee age group and the schools were not obliged or willing to contribute to the numbers data bank.

European registration numbers from the same era, especially from the Soviet Union are in a constant state of limbo. To be believed or not believed depending on the narrative advanced. Regardless demonstratably, as posted elsewhere Russian number today and in most European countries are way down compared to 20 or 30 years ago. Similar to Canada. Reason is rather straightforward. Choice has been made to focus on intense development of a limited number of elite players - back to square one the Ottawa Citizen article as opposed to grass roots development.

More to come.:D
 

shazariahl

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I believe about 4 or 5 years ago someone on this board managed to find a lot of registration numbers for Canadian hockey, and it basically peaked in the 70's for kids IIRC. I'm pretty sure there are less people registering and playing hockey today than when I was a kid in the 80's. There may be more children of that age now, but they also have way more activities competing for their time. The truth is, I have more nephews and nieces who play NHL hockey on their PS4 or XBox than I do playing organized hockey at any level.
 

quoipourquoi

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I don't know much about players like Richard but yes, my main argument is that the league was quite weak back then. Absolutely incomparable to the 90s:
dcdc6f4c59d5b63693ef800fae705873.png

I'm sorry, but which of these 20 players from 1993-94 are meant to be better than Maurice Richard? Gretzky, sure. Roy and Hasek if you're feeling frisky. But... is this not the worst season from the 90s to use to make your point? Couldn't find a screenshot that included Lemieux, Messier, and Bourque?
 

NewUser293223

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I'm sorry, but which of these 20 players from 1993-94 are meant to be better than Maurice Richard? Gretzky, sure. Roy and Hasek if you're feeling frisky. But... is this not the worst season from the 90s to use to make your point? Couldn't find a screenshot that included Lemieux, Messier, and Bourque?

You're right. Most definitely not Roy. Not even at our friskiest.
 

Overrated

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Mind if I join the game?:laugh:

From 2017 Ottawa Senators strength and conditioning coach comments about the overall athleticism of present day elite hockey players:

Senators strength coach alarmed over declining youth athletic skills

Short version-today's players may be better trained but are not nearly as polished or complete as athletes.
This is a lot less telling than what you think. Many children these days spent their days on their computers and cell phones and lack movement. That is why there has been an overall decline in athleticism in the past decade or so and maybe yes, hockey might get a little easier in the future as a result, though I don't think it will be that much.

This brings us to the next point about post WWII hockey players.

Trust the seminal poster may have heard about Jaroslav Drobny:
Jaroslav Drobný - Wikipedia

Elite world class tennis and hockey player. You do not have such athletes today. This goes to the point in the article about overall athleticism. Fact of the matter is that an NHL team - Boston, in 1949 was willing to pay him $20,000 and bypass the extensive Hockey triage system speaks to Drobny's skill level.
This really proves my point rather than yours. It was in fact very common back in the day to play several sports at a top level since the top level was very low. Bobrov Scored 94 hockey goals in 59 games with the national team while playing the highest football league in the USSR where he scored 99 goals in 115 matches, which is awfully a lot for soccer.

The post WWII hockey triage system precluded 900 skaters in a league. Players were slotted NHL followed by AHL which was slightly weaker then the QSHL/WHL down to various Senior hockey levels. No need include all under one umbrella especially since they could not perform.

As for registration numbers in Canada and the rest of the world. Into the seventies, Canadian amateur hockey failed to see the need of tracking the registration of levels below the old Pee Wee age group and the schools were not obliged or willing to contribute to the numbers data bank.
I am pretty sure we could at least go back to the 80s with accurate estimates. I could only find the number of US players since the 90s (which quadrupled) and the amount of Canadian females from early 80s through mid-90s (which also quadrupled), both numbers don't mean very much in estimating Canadian males though. I hope some numbers are shown later on in this thread.

European registration numbers from the same era, especially from the Soviet Union are in a constant state of limbo. To be believed or not believed depending on the narrative advanced. Regardless demonstratably, as posted elsewhere Russian number today and in most European countries are way down compared to 20 or 30 years ago. Similar to Canada. Reason is rather straightforward. Choice has been made to focus on intense development of a limited number of elite players - back to square one the Ottawa Citizen article as opposed to grass roots development.
That is because hockey is an expensive sport and there has been a decline of players (and especially their abilities) in the Eastern Bloc after the fall of socialism. On the other hand I think hockey in Sweden/Finland has grown quite a bit since the 80s. I personally don't think NHL hockey has gotten that much harder since the 90s, though I do think the difference between the 80s and 90s is huge and between the 50s and the 80s even more so.
 

Overrated

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I'm sorry, but which of these 20 players from 1993-94 are meant to be better than Maurice Richard? Gretzky, sure. Roy and Hasek if you're feeling frisky. But... is this not the worst season from the 90s to use to make your point? Couldn't find a screenshot that included Lemieux, Messier, and Bourque?
I took the first year I clicked on. It does not mean much. Richard might have some sort of a super legend status as one of the pioneers of the game, sure I am not taking it away from him but statistically he was very underwhelming. You guys are fetishizing the past. Your excuse about a low scoring era wouldn't even work here as his best scoring year was 44-45, which was the highest scoring year in like 90 years. Everyone on the list (at least from the non-goalie part) from the 93-94 season was better than Richard.
NHLEras.jpg

Also Jagr > Messier and Bourque (a fair statement which will enrage every Canadian extremist)
 

quoipourquoi

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But what kind of disparity in the statistical record would Howe need to create between himself and his contemporaries for you to give him, a player from the 1950s, credit alongside Gretzky and Lemieux?

I get your theory - it's a charge against everything and everyone that came before Point X in history because Reason Y.

But wouldn't it be unusual for no one Canadian player from before the 1980s to be among the best players in history - regardless of the timing of European competition?
 

Overrated

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But what kind of disparity in the statistical record would Howe need to create between himself and his contemporaries for you to give him, a player from the 1950s, credit alongside Gretzky and Lemieux?
I get your theory - it's a charge against everything and everyone that came before Point X in history because Reason Y.
In my view he would have to put up insanely high numbers. Maybe if he averaged 40 points higher during his peak or something. Remember Gretzky was famous by the time he was 10. Everyone knew he was something special. That is not Howe's story.

But wouldn't it be unusual for no one Canadian player from before the 1980s to be among the best players in history - regardless of the timing of European competition?
One of the best in history ≠ top4. One could say that even 15th best ever is one of the best ever. Not to mention I would put Orr (who was a 60s/70s player) above Lemieux.
 

Canadiens1958

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This is a lot less telling than what you think. Many children these days spent their days on their computers and cell phones and lack movement. That is why there has been an overall decline in athleticism in the past decade or so and maybe yes, hockey might get a little easier in the future as a result, though I don't think it will be that much.


This really proves my point rather than yours. It was in fact very common back in the day to play several sports at a top level since the top level was very low. Bobrov Scored 94 hockey goals in 59 games with the national team while playing the highest football league in the USSR where he scored 99 goals in 115 matches, which is awfully a lot for soccer.


The post WWII hockey triage system precluded 900 skaters in a league. Players were slotted NHL followed by AHL which was slightly weaker then the QSHL/WHL down to various Senior hockey levels. No need include all under one umbrella especially since they could not perform.


I am pretty sure we could at least go back to the 80s with accurate estimates. I could only find the number of US players since the 90s (which quadrupled) and the amount of Canadian females from early 80s through mid-90s (which also quadrupled), both numbers don't mean very much in estimating Canadian males though. I hope some numbers are shown later on in this thread.


That is because hockey is an expensive sport and there has been a decline of players (and especially their abilities) in the Eastern Bloc after the fall of socialism. On the other hand I think hockey in Sweden/Finland has grown quite a bit since the 80s. I personally don't think NHL hockey has gotten that much harder since the 90s, though I do think the difference between the 80s and 90s is huge and between the 50s and the 80s even more so.


Actually there are a greater number of youngsters in Canada and the USA playing multiple sports who have to choose in their mid teens between sports. Previously they could continue playing both because the seasons did not overlap. Problem is the growing number of single sport athletes in every sport clogging the game.

Check junior drafts and university commitments. Youngsters have to choose between sports. or hope that the school or organizations tolerate participation in multi-sports where practices are missed, maybe games as well.

Oh yes the old fall of socialism, red herring. Overlooks that in NA and the former socialist countries athletes who cannot afford to participate get government grants and subsidies, governing body assistance, financial institution assistance. philanthropic and sponsorship aid. See the Subban Foundation amongst many.

http://www.pksubban.com/philanthropy/

and

Les Jeunes Espoirs du hockey Hyundai — Jeux du Québec

Plus NHL team assistance. Canadiens building outdoor rinks, etc.

Fondation des Canadiens pour l'enfance

Rather lame when you obviously have not researched the subject but try to pronounce that your unfounded position dominates.
 

Canadiens1958

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In my view he would have to put up insanely high numbers. Maybe if he averaged 40 points higher during his peak or something. Remember Gretzky was famous by the time he was 10. Everyone knew he was something special. That is not Howe's story.


One of the best in history ≠ top4. One could say that even 15th best ever is one of the best ever. Not to mention I wouldprepared for war put Orr (who was a 60s/70s player) above Lemieux.

Growing up during the Depression while the world prepared for a world war, a child prodigy was not newsworthy. 1960s they were. Television and the onset of modern media needed content so stories about local kids were plentiful, be it Gretzky , or others.
 

Overrated

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Actually there are a greater number of youngsters in Canada and the USA playing multiple sports who have to choose in their mid teens between sports. Previously they could continue playing both because the seasons did not overlap. Problem is the growing number of single sport athletes in every sport clogging the game.
Sure seasons never overlapped until today.

Another piece of information showing this was mostly a thing of the past (especially for males)
List of athletes with Olympic medals in different disciplines - Wikipedia

Oh yes the old fall of socialism, red herring. Overlooks that in NA and the former socialist countries athletes who cannot afford to participate get government grants and subsidies, governing body assistance, financial institution assistance. philanthropic and sponsorship aid. See the Subban Foundation amongst many.
What? We were talking about the Eastern Bloc. The US was never socialist and their hockey has gotten a lot stronger since the 90s. Not to mention the USA is a very wealthy country where people can afford hockey. Kids don't get financial assistance in ex-USSR/CSSR to play. What the hell are you talking about?

The system had no impact on Eastern European hockey?


Rather lame when you obviously have not researched the subject but try to pronounce that your unfounded position dominates.
Rather lame you did not even argue with my position and instead used a strawman.

You failed.
 
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Overrated

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Yeah but they sucked when Orr played. How much were Orr's points worth when some 40-year old guy could score 103 points during one of his Norris seasons?
Who sucked? It wasn't some 40 year old, it was Gordie Howe. Of course he is a legend, I am not trying to say he was bad, just overrated. Orr scored 139 points during his peak while playing defense. I find that more impressive.
 

quoipourquoi

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One of the best in history ≠ top4. One could say that even 15th best ever is one of the best ever. Not to mention I would put Orr (who was a 60s/70s player) above Lemieux.

Don't hold your cards so close to your chest; what would your top-15 look like if Gordie Howe is at the tail end? And is he the only pre-expansion player?
 

Canadiens1958

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Sure seasons never overlapped until today.

Another piece of information showing this was mostly a thing of the past (especially for males)
List of athletes with Olympic medals in different disciplines - Wikipedia


What? We were talking about the Eastern Bloc. The US was never socialist and their hockey has gotten a lot stronger since the 90s. Not to mention the USA is a very wealthy country where people can afford hockey. Kids don't get financial assistance in ex-USSR/CSSR to play. What the hell are you talking about?

The system had no impact on Eastern European hockey?



Rather lame you did not even argue with my position and instead used a strawman.

You failed.


Doug Harvey played baseball, football and hockey in season. Outdoor rinks were set-up on football/soccer fields and baseball diamonds. Nights without TV or the internet were spent at the community center, boxing and playing other sports developing athleticism.

Really no finacial assistance in Russia? Who financed the Sochi Olympics? the oligarchy? Same as philantrophists in NA or governments and sponsors who paid for the Vancouver Olympics four years previously.

And of course you ignore who financed the failed Russian doping program at Sochi. Hint, not the athletes or their families.
 

Overrated

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Don't hold your cards so close to your chest; what would your top-15 look like if Gordie Howe is at the tail end? And is he the only pre-expansion player?
To be honest I don't know. I really can't make the list without going through the entire history of hockey. Maybe he would be ranked a lot better than 15. I do however think there should not be any other player from the 50s in the top 20.
 

Overrated

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Doug Harvey played baseball, football and hockey in season. Outdoor rinks were set-up on football/soccer fields and baseball diamonds. Nights without TV or the internet were spent at the community center, boxing and playing other sports developing athleticism.

Really no finacial assistance in Russia? Who financed the Sochi Olympics? the oligarchy? Same as philantrophists in NA or governments and sponsors who paid for the Vancouver Olympics four years previously.

And of course you ignore who financed the failed Russian doping program at Sochi. Hint, not the athletes or their families.
Little kids who wanna play hockey can't because there is no money or/and access to ice in Eastern Europe. What does that have to do with doping or the Sochi Olympics.
 
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daver

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To be honest I don't know. I really can't make the list without going through the entire history of hockey. Maybe he would be ranked a lot better than 15. I do however think there should not be any other player from the 50s in the top 20.

So what happened in 60's that was so different from the 50's that you don't penalize Orr for being an old-timey player?
 

Hockey Outsider

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The main reason is simply that there weren't really many stars back then as the game was still at its early stages of development. Bobrov probably could challenge him given the fact he scored 94 goals in 59 international games. And to be honest winning a World Championship in the 80s was more difficult than to win the Stanley Cup in the 50s.

I've never heard anyone take the position that hockey was at its "early stages of development" in the 1950s. What leads you to that conclusion? I'd argue that the game was past its early stages of development sometime between the mid 1920s (when the NHL merged with its rival leagues, consolidating all of the game's talent into a single league) and 1930 (modern off-side rules were implemented partway through the season - one could argue that was the last fundamental rule change in NHL history).

I respect Bobrov's historical significance but I'm not convinced that he would have fared well against NHL talent. The highlight of his international career was probably the 1956 Winter Olympics (gold medal, scored 9 goals in 7 games). But he was outscored by Canadian players like James Logan, Paul Knox and tournament MVP Jack McKenzie. If you've never heard of those players, I've made my point - Bobrov appeared to have been on par with with Canada's best amateur players - not the stars who played in the NHL. (This isn't true of, say, Tretiak, since he played very well against the NHL's top talent in various tournaments).

No that is not my logic. Why are you purposefully misinterpreting what I am trying to say? Competitiveness largely has to do with the amount of total players competing in the game. Of course 1968 was almost the same in competitiveness as 1967 and putting up bigger numbers became easier if anything. Today there are more than a million registered players. You have to be better than the vast majority of them to become a pro. Back when Howe was a child in the 30s practically nobody played the game. If you were committed back then you did not need any talent to be in the NHL, most people in the 30s were struggling to survive, playing hockey back then was akin to playing video games now, a waste of time. Now parents are preparing their children for a pro career since they are 4 and there are millions of them.

I didn't misrepresent your point, you didn't explain it clearly. Now that you've clarified, I'll discuss what you meant to say.

Your paragraph doesn't contain any proof, just a series of unsubstantiated theories. For example, you've said things like "practically nobody" played hockey in the 1930s, those who did considered it a "waste of time". Those are theories, not proof. Go do some research to prove those statements, and once you have actual evidence (rather than blanket statements), we can re-visit your position.

Jagr was scoring 120-149 points while the best ever were still playing, when goalies had larger equipment than before, when the league became way more difficult even compared to the 80s. Jagr is objectively better than Howe.

See post #47. Let me know which of those categories Jagr is ahead of Howe in. You can even "re-calculate" Jagr's results removing all non-Canadians from the league in order to make this more comparable.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Again what the hell are you talking about? Are you high? Little kids who wanna play hockey can't because there is no money or/and access to ice in Eastern Europe. What does that have to do with doping or the Sochi Olympics. What the actual hell!


Water still freezes into ice in eastern Europe. Olympic facilities and other rinks are still standing and could run learn to skate and learn to play programs with community equipment for youngsters. Plenty of unemployed to oversee such programs. Happened in Canada when I was growing up and still does.

So you admit the doping at Sochi by Russia. Just a question of redirecting the same funds to youth sports and the support system.

Why doesn't Ovi run a foundation like Subban?
 

quoipourquoi

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To be honest I don't know. I really can't make the list without going through the entire history of hockey. Maybe he would be ranked a lot better than 15. I do however think there should not be any other player from the 50s in the top 20.

But why? Wouldn't it be out of place that only one Canadian player from the first half of hockey history ranks among the top-20 players when we can presume that quite a few Canadians from the second-half of hockey history would?
 
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