Is Gordie Howe Overrated?

[vadim sharifijanov]

Because he was told that by his father, other adults, Wayne met Gordie as a child.... famous photo of the two... from these failing hands... the child prodigy & Mr. Hockey.... quite the moment, sweet... Jesus wept...

poty

 

[crobro]

20 straight seasons top five in scoring

Nuff said

 

[Eye of Ra]

Howe had 1.00 in ppg in a time Where NHL had the quality of Todays ECHL. I am not impressed by his stats. Also Howe was not really a player Who was physical it was not often he finished his checks.

 

[Michael Farkas]

The league in the mid 50s and 60s was higher quality than the expansion-riddled league(s) of the 70s for my money. The ECHL remark suggests that you haven't seen either league...

 

[ImporterExporter]

No I dont believe Gordie is overrated. Hasek on the other hand is underrated and probably the player with the best case for making it a "Big 5". But he is not all that close either to be fair.

Overrated players would be like-

Crosby
Niedermayer
Forsberg
Fedorov (maybe most of all)
Harvey

etc

Nope.

 

[Rygu]

Is Gordie Howe overrated?

No, he isn't.

 

[Killion]

You say that like it's a bad thing Sounds more entertaining than any All-Star Game I've ever seen.

... there is that aspect to it, yes. the ASG was much more heated, competitive as it pitted the Cup Winners (in this case Toronto) against a team of All Stars, some serious enmities between various All Stars & members of the Leafs who had won multiple Cups through the 40's, Detroit falling victim on numerous occasions & several All Stars Red Wings. So for the AS Selections a matter of pride (and in 48 they did beat the Leafs 3-1). Wasnt the timid affair, Pond Hockey Game weve become accustomed to over the more recent decades. Underscores the vast differences in that event, the game in general yesterday-today.

I brought that event & the Kennedy episode up to illustrate, give people a clearer picture of what kind of a player Howe was as a Rookie, first few years in the NHL; tad on the Hair Trigger side of the equation before smartening up & picking his spots... legend having it that he did so while lying in his hospital bed recovering from his self inflicted head wound, single vehicle crash that not only very nearly ended his career but so to his life.... and oddly, whenever I think of that story.... www.youtube.com/watch?v=C39kQoprfP0 .... pops into my brain... what connection a drug addled Keef Richards has to Mr.Hockey... I mean, did Gordie even Swear?... and get this... Gordon there apologized to Tommy Ivan while lying on the stoop of Deaths Door... "Sorry Coach, let the team down, lost my head, scrambled my eggs & decommissioned myself" or some such....

 

[Cursed Lemon]

Also Howe was not really a player Who was physical it was not often he finished his checks.

...What!?

 

[Eye of Ra]

...What!?

yes howe hit hard, but not often.

 

[Michael Farkas]

He didn't run around the rink chasing hits like those in the short shift game today...back in the "ECHL days", players had another whole trait that is largely eradicated today, best termed as "shift management"...so you didn't have a bunch of minions running around for 25 seconds like a chicken with their head cut off because it's easier to destroy than it is to create...that's a fault of today's game, it's too fast for its own good. It cheapens the quality.

Howe made hits for their original intent...dislodging an opponent from the puck.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Howe also had an excellent long term memory. Payback was like a mortgage. Not due today, but paid back eventually.

 

[Jim MacDonald]

... unhuh.... well Jim.....you best pick that mic up & head back out onto the stage because I paid for a full show & I demand to gets my moneys' worth, and when it comes to playing the role of Devils Advocate.... because, see, here's the deal with Gordie Howe, "Mr. Hockey" Councilor.... his peak-prime stats are mortal. Hewman. Now look at Orr's, Gretzkys's & Lemieux's.... See what I'm sayin?...

He wasnt "light years" beyond the rest of the pack the way those 3 guys were, Gordie wasnt untouchable, entirely mortal & if your a younger person, never saw him play, you'll look at those stats during his peak years & you'll prolly go "meh.. whats the big deal with this guy? What makes him a Sacred Cow? Interchangeable Top 4? Dont think so".....

But ok, lets say you then source out all the game footage you can find, get your hands on from the 50's, early 60's..... You watch Gordie intently.... and as you watch, you keep waiting to see that "WW"! moment, like, if he's called "Mr.Hockey" & people rave about him, Top 4 Player All Time, "why then am I not seeing it? Oh, he's good alright, but he aint jerking me outta my seat. Not spilling my drink & popcorn. Mr. Hockey there should be blowing my mind & instead... limpid... looks pretty damn normal-average to everyone else out there".....

What do you say to this younger person who didnt see Gordie Howe play live & in person nor on televsion, wasnt even born until long after Howe had retired.... that he earned that title because for app 10yrs he was "one of the top players in the NHL"... and...... "longevity"?.... Key words.... "one of".....and ........ "longevity". You have a tough sell on your hands Councilor; convincing a jury of 20, 30, 40 & even 50 somethings in this day & age that Gordie Howe belongs in the Top 4 All Time, even Top 5....

I saw Gordie play, didnt see his peak, tail end late 50's through the 60's and I can tell you quite honestly, he didnt do a whole lot for me. Good player, well rounded, but he didnt do anything others werent doing & some better. He sure as shootin wasnt a Rocket or Golden Jet, not even a Big Jean or Big M yanking people clean out of their seats every time they touched the puck. Gretzkys' younger than I am, and I have no idea what Waynes talking about, claiming Howes the Greatest Ever. How in Hell would Wayne Gretzky know that when he wasnt even around to watch Gordie during his prime?... Answer?... Because he was told that by his father, other adults, Wayne met Gordie as a child.... famous photo of the two... from these failing hands... the child prodigy & Mr. Hockey.... quite the moment, sweet... Jesus wept... what about Hull & Orr, Perrault & Lafluer?..... just a bunch of no name inbetweenies?

So what gives? Why shouldnt people ask questions, not just accept that "Gordies the Greatest, Mr. Hockey, a God, Top 4 for sure"... Not everyone accepts what their elders tell them like Wayne Gretzky. Some arent quite so obedient, respectful, accepting... Some have a mind of their own & make it up for themselves, saw Hull, Orr, Lafleur & Perrault, Gretzky, Kurri & Coffey, Mario, Bure'.... certainly theyve seen guys like Crosby, Ovechkin, McDavid.... all players capable of appearing Superhuman, sublime, absolute artists... they have a hard time understanding Howes elevation, deification... stats while excellent during peak not totally runaway, footage theyve watched not exactly overwhelming.... So yes, yes Councilor; you do indeed have your work cut out for you. So pick up the mic where you dropped it, lets see whatcha got.

lol! This was a long post and I'm at work...I'll read this soon for sure and respond...I just like the "playful banter" Killion (you best go pick that mic back up!) That's awesome!

 

[Killion]

Howe also had an excellent long term memory. Payback was like a mortgage. Not due today, but paid back eventually.

... indeed so, as did Jack Adams, followup to the above & Howes near death experience, horrific injury.... As you can imagine, Detroit GM Jack Adams absolutely incensed, claiming Kennedy was responsible, threatening to sue for $75,000, Howe gone from the Playoffs, Toronto having beaten the Wings in previous season in hard fought series. Clarence Campbell & league officials did do an exhaustive investigation but no, Kennedy had neither head butted Howe earlier nor had he butt ended or used his stick in any way that sent Howe crashing into the boards, interviewing various players including Toronto's Gus Mortson who was closest to the action, birds eye view, exonerating Kennedy however as he was a Leaf, Adams not buying.... Detroit did go on to win the Cup & beat Toronto, the club actually coming together with the mantra "lets win this for Gordie".

So.... Gus Mortson gets traded to Chicago a couple of years later, the same Gus Mortson who in 1948 got into a brawl with Howe at the All Star Game as mentioned earlier... the same Gus Mortson who was a key eye witness to the Kennedy/Howe event... then..... is acquired by Detroit in 1958... by Adams... and still sharpening his scythe & hatred of Kennedy, the Leafs & Smythe et al 8yrs after the incident... acquiring Mortson for one reason & 1 reason only.... upon arrival, Adams invites him to play golf.... Jack & a couple of team Doctors.... well now, isnt that great thinks Gus, very kind indeed, rolling out the Welcome Wagon... think again Gustav me Boyo'..... what we have here is an AMBUSH...... with the conversation quickly turning to that night in 1950 when Howe crashed & burned, missing Teeder Kennedy, Adams & the 2 Doctors trying to get Mortson to recant his statements, admit that he lied, that he didnt see what he said he saw, that he was just covering up for Ted Kennedy, that it wasnt 8yrs ago but just lastnight.... and that as he was now a member of the Detroit Red Wings he owed it to the organization, to the Big Guy, to Jack Adams, the game, all that was human & decent, Holy...

Well, Gus Mortson wouldnt change his story, said he was telling the truth in 1950, telling the truth today (1958) & that had he seen any teammate deliberately & maliciously injure a player & he was called to give testimony he would always tell the truth, no place in the game for players like that & so on.... and that wasnt good enough for Jack Adams nor the Doctors, No Siree Bob.... worked poor Gus over mercilessly between hacking & slicing their way through the rest of the round of golf.... As for Gus Mortsons tenure with the Red Wings thereafter... left to sit, rot on the bench in Detroit, barely used, demoted, refused to report.... eventually having to take matters into his own hands & convincing the Buffalo Bisons of the AHL to buy out his contract with Detroit, signing to play in Buffalo & earning more there than he ever did in the NHL before eventually retiring a few years later.... As for Ted Kennedy.... didnt swear, didnt drink, in no way, about the furthest thing from a dirty player one could imagine. A lot like Apps in that respect & as such, becoming a Conn Smythe, "Toronto the Good's" favorite.

 

[Canadiens1958]

Also Howe never blamed Kennedy or sought retribution.

 

[Killion]

Also Howe never blamed Kennedy or sought retribution.

Indeed..... of course, getting into it with Kennedy akin to picking a fight with a tight lipped Anglican Minister on the steps of the Church after his sermon on "forgiveness, turning the other cheek"... just hauling off & decking him in your Sunday Finest, in front of the entire congregation, women & children, the wife & kids... Gordie a Good Boy in that respect.... Kennedy did get into it with a few guys though... Milt Schmidt of Boston, suffering a serious injury as a result of that altercation.... a few others.... but mainly fights, face-face. He wasnt dirty. Nothin but disdain for players who were & that would have included Gordie Howe during his formative years in the League.

 

[Cursed Lemon]

yes howe hit hard, but not often.

He was nicknamed "Mr. Elbows" for a reason.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

yes howe hit hard, but not often.

Wow, I didn't know that.

 

[psycat]

Nope.

Yes.

Crosby is, handidly, winning a poll on here for 4th best forward of all time.
Yet if you look into it abit he got a measly 2 Ross and a couple of subjective team awards. Also didnt appear once in top 5 assists/goals at the same time.

Compare his offensive domination to Jagr, LaFleur etc it's just ridiculous gaps and someone like Jagr had quite the longveity no chance in hell he should be ranked higher. That said Jagr aint canadian so pretty obvious why. Then again even if you remove Jagr there are others who got just as good(and better) cases than Crosby.

Harvey got no merit being in a different tier than Lidström/Bourque yet he seems to be for many. If anything he should be ranked below both.

 

[Howie Hodge]

Howe also had an excellent long term memory. Payback was like a mortgage. Not due today, but paid back eventually.

Damn straight. Ask Bobby Baun.

 

[Eye of Ra]

Wow, I didn't know that.

so then why do so many fans view howe as a hit anything that move type of player? he was not that.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

so then why do so many fans view howe as a hit anything that move type of player? he was not that.

First, my post was sarcasm.

And B, there are not many (if any) fans who think Howe was a hit anything that moves type of player.

 

[VanIslander]

Page 11 and the answer is still 'No'.

 

[Bluesguru]

I am in my mid 20s. It does not matter though to be honest. Even Jagr said that the game has gotten a lot harder since the 90s and the 90s were extremely competitive! All the top Eastern Bloc talents came in, not to mention Swedish/Finnish/American all got quite good by then.

I don't think he said that. He was also quoted saying McDavid should score 100 goals in a season due to the fact you can't check/hit players today like you could in the past.

It's a different league today. If the game was played today like it was in the 90's, there'd be a different set of players playing today and a different group of stars.

And by the way, if you watch game video of hockey from the 50's and 60's, you'd see how great those players were back then. If you can't see this then you really don't appreciate hockey. I was so impressed when I watched those games. Outstanding players back then and the hockey was extremely enjoyable to watch. I loved it.

 

[PenguinSpeed]

You forgot to put Crosby and Malkin there lol.

People here are talking about how important a peak/prime is, yet they completely ignore the fact that Crosby failed to stay healthy at his peak (he did, stop damage-controlling it), while Malkin is a injury prone/inconsistent in production throughout his career.

Yet many hfboards members (a.k.a Crosby/Malkin/Penguins fanatics) would put Crosby as a unanimous 5th best player, while Malkin is apparently in the top 30 all time, same tier with Messier/Clarke/Mikita/Esposito/Sakic/Yzerman, which I find it mind boggling lol.

I’m not a Crosby/Malkin “hater” (although I do hate fanatics in hfboards that are clearly desperate in pushing Crosby/Malkin in a tier which they don’t deserve) by the way. I do see Crosby as a top 15-20 all time at the moment, with the possibility of becoming top 10 all time. The problem with him is that he failed to stay healthy at his peak, which is HUGE in judging a player’s overall career. He lost scoring titles to relatively weak competitors (Sedins and Benn), and his back-to-back Smythes are cringeworthy (I’m sorry but it is).
Malkin is top 50-ish with Forsberg (I also don’t put Forsberg in the same tier as Sakic, and it’s fairly obvious as to why). But I do see Malkin passing Forsberg since he does have better health (despite Malkin being relatively injury prone). He is Forsberg+ to me.
So I rank Crosby 15-20 all time with the potential for top 10, while Malkin is top 50-ish, with the potential of top 30-40, which is not outrageous IMO.

I also feel like the NHL “softened” the League in terms of physicality in recent years, which is another reason why I don’t value Crosby/Malkin as high as a lot of fanatics do in hfboards. Crosby began to play at a relatively healthy rate after the game softened up, which is another negative for me. I understand that from a marketing and promotion point of view, Crosby plays a big role in the world of hockey. But the way the game changed drastically after his “concussed years” definitely helped him stay healthy and “pad” stats to his resume. None of the “big four” needed that. Gretzky and Orr literally changed the game, while Howe was able to adapt to it. Lemieux is a different story (which is why I put him comfortably last in the big four).

I do find his post-concussion years as a benefit of the league making the game “softer” (this will probably trigger some fanatics lol), which is one of the many reasons as to why he shouldn’t even be in the discussion for top 5, let alone top 10 (as of now). Had he fulfilled his concussed years, he would be in my top 10, but he didn’t, which is the reality.

I only give extra credit for missed games, when a player’s career was cut short due to war or politics. Which is why I give extra credit for guys like Hasek and Stastny. Crosby missing games due to concussion is his own fault. That’s just who he is as a player. “What if’s” means nothing for players who’s career was cut short due to injuries.

-You know, I enjoy reading posts like this. I really do. As for overrated being Crosby and Malkin, here are the post salary cap playoff win totals. You can add another 6 on to Pittsburgh

-I like separation. Its not just the fact Crosby and Malkin are the only 2 players in this entire era to average more then 1 point per game in the playoffs. Its not because they have won 3 Cups or more playoff rounds then anyone in this era by a landslide. Its the fact they are so far ahead of every other team on this list that is shaped like a mountain, it is enjoyable to look at. They have literally double dipped or more every team in the entire NHL except 6 teams.


-I will get a lot of joy if Sidney Crosby plays more playoff games then any other player NHL history. Ill also get a lot of joy when Crosby finishes #2 all time in playoff points.

-This thread was interesting to say the least.

 

[Daximus]

-You know, I enjoy reading posts like this. I really do. As for overrated being Crosby and Malkin, here are the post salary cap playoff win totals. You can add another 6 on to Pittsburgh

-I like separation. Its not just the fact Crosby and Malkin are the only 2 players in this entire era to average more then 1 point per game in the playoffs. Its not because they have won 3 Cups or more playoff rounds then anyone in this era by a landslide. Its the fact they are so far ahead of every other team on this list that is shaped like a mountain, it is enjoyable to look at. They have literally double dipped or more every team in the entire NHL except 6 teams.


-I will get a lot of joy if Sidney Crosby plays more playoff games then any other player NHL history. Ill also get a lot of joy when Crosby finishes #2 all time in playoff points.

-This thread was interesting to say the least.

You have to take teammates into consideration here. Having two of the top 5 to 3 centers at any given time in the league helps. I'd imagine if Crosby was the sole leader of this team it would be a lot closer to how McDavid is doing on his own then hat they are doing now.