Is Elias the best LW of the last 30 years?

[Atlas]

John Tonelli was one of the greatest heart and soul players who ever played the game. And he wasn't short on skill either. I'd take him at left wing over just about anybody because he would skate through a wall for his team. I'm a Caps fan and the Isles pissed me off every year but I always respected Tonelli. He was a special player. The only LW I'd definitely take over him is Ovechkin. AO has the same heart as Tonelli and a lot more skill.

Elias is an excellent player but he's primarily a skill guy and not a physical presence.

 

[reckoning]

Saying Elias is the best LW of the last 30 years is like saying Dion Phaneuf is the best defenseman of the last 30 years.

Elias - 13 playoff series wins
Phaneuf - 0 playoff series wins

 

[Big Phil]

Well to make things shorter lets make a list of guys who are beter than Elias in the last 15 years. I'll throw in Markus Naslund, Kariya, Robitaille, even Shanahan. Before that Shutt, Barber and Goulet were better. Propp was at least as good as Elias, Tonelli, well let's just say I wouldnt bench that guy in a playoff game if he had just stolen my car. Elias has a long way's to go. There are at least two or three better LW TODAY than him.

 

[Sens Rule]

I might be a bit biased as a Blues fan, but Tkachuk is not overrated. In fact he's certainly better than Tonelli and better than Gillies who's in the Hall of Fame, and certainly better than Tikkanen who you mentioned.

I'd take Tikkanen over Tkachuk. Tkachuk may get more points but Tikkanen was awesome. One of the most under-rated players ever. He would be awesome defensively, draw a ton of penalties, throw the other team off their game and he could score too. And at times he could dominate and be the best player on great teams over long stretches. Tkachuk is not a winner. He is big and can score but never in the post-season. If you want to be a winning team Tikkanen is your man.

IMO a 70 point season by Tikkanen is more valuable then a 40 goal 90 point season by Tkachuk. And neither should be seriously considered for the HOF.

 

[pappyline]

I`m not going to try to compare him to the guys whose prime were before my time like Hull or Lindsay, but of the last 30 years you could make a very strong case for Elias being the best. It`s tough to say because he`s still in his prime, and what happens this spring will add to his resume, but even just based on what he`s accomplished so far in his career, I`d put him in the top spot.

Top 10 LWs of the last 30 years: (the way I see it)

1. Patrik Elias: The most complete player in the game today. Consistently among the top scorers, very strong defensive play, turns it up a notch at playoff time and as this season showed is essential to the Devils success.

2. Brian Propp: Very underrated; everything I said about Elias applies to Propp as well, just not at quite the same level.

3. Bob Gainey: Generally accepted as the best defensive forward ever.

4. Brendan Shanahan: Consistently produced throughout his career, provided a valuable toughness element to Detroit`s late 90s Cup-winning seasons.

5. Steve Shutt: Great hands + impeccable positioning.

6. John Tonelli: Extremely underrated contributor to the Islander dynasty, brought them back almost singlehandedly against Pittsburgh in `82.

7. Luc Robitaille: Racked up a lot of regular season points year after year, but that`s it.

8. Craig Ramsay: If anything this ranking is too low; imagine Gainey with a better scoring touch but without all the Montreal HOF teammates.

9. Markus Naslund: Like Robitaille, somewhat overrated but still deserves to be on the list.

10. Bill Barber: More than just a talented diver.

Honourable mentions: Goulet, Gillies, Kariya, Tikkanen

Where would you guys rate Elias?

Kind of a ridiculous premise. Back in 1976, Bobby Hull was the top scorer in the Canada Cup and he was still playing in 1980. Maybe try for the last 20 years.

 

[Bluesfan1981]

I'd take Tikkanen over Tkachuk. Tkachuk may get more points but Tikkanen was awesome. One of the most under-rated players ever. He would be awesome defensively, draw a ton of penalties, throw the other team off their game and he could score too. And at times he could dominate and be the best player on great teams over long stretches. Tkachuk is not a winner. He is big and can score but never in the post-season. If you want to be a winning team Tikkanen is your man.

IMO a 70 point season by Tikkanen is more valuable then a 40 goal 90 point season by Tkachuk. And neither should be seriously considered for the HOF.

Fair enough, I'm not old enough to have seen Tikkanen his entire career, but Tkachuk will most likely reach 500 goals and what if he ends up with close to 550 goals, around 25th all-time? He would certainly have to get some HOF consideration.

 

[Puck Dogg]

The guy totals 504 career points. I repeat: 504 career points. In 596 games. What next? Ovetchkin is the best offensive player in 20 years. Or Crosby in last 40?

 

[Sens Rule]

Fair enough, I'm not old enough to have seen Tikkanen his entire career, but Tkachuk will most likely reach 500 goals and what if he ends up with close to 550 goals, around 25th all-time? He would certainly have to get some HOF consideration.

He may be considered but I doubt he gets in the HOF. He has 4 or 5 seasons left. He is still a good player though. His best shot is to have 2 really good seasons where he is top 5 or 6 in goals and/or top 10 in points and to be an end of year All-Star selection. If he just puts up 100 or so more goals but doesn't have at least one or preferably 2 really dominating seasons he doesn't have much of a shot. He won't get in just on good all time numbers. Ciccarelli and Anderychuk might not get in with 600+ goals.

 

[Bluesfan1981]

Ciccarelli and Anderychuk might not get in with 600+ goals.

I would be shocked if they don't get in with 600+ goals. Every eligible player with 500+ goals is in the HoF except Pat Verbeek.

 

[Sens Rule]

I would be shocked if they don't get in with 600+ goals. Every eligible player with 500+ goals is in the HoF except Pat Verbeek.

Dino has been passed up already. I think they maybe should get in eventually but I am not sure they will.

 

[Peter25]

Do you honestly believe NHL teams were at their best in these exhibition games? The Soviets wanted to win quite badly to prove their hockey was good. Many of the NHL players couldn't care less. That record is very misleading. The Soviet league was not on par with the NHL.

OK, let's take an example.

In 1985 the Edmonton Oilers played the CSKA team from Moscow in Edmonton. There was a full crowd and both teams had the best line up for the match.

CSKA won the game 6-3, even with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Lowe and Fuhr playing for the Oilers.

Do you really think that the Oilers would tank a game like this in front of their home crowd? No, it was one of the best games ever played. And Vladimir Krutov happened to be the best player on the ice. Not Gretzky.

 

[Whakahere]

OK, let's take an example.

In 1985 the Edmonton Oilers played the CSKA team from Moscow in Edmonton. There was a full crowd and both teams had the best line up for the match.

CSKA won the game 6-3, even with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Lowe and Fuhr playing for the Oilers.

Do you really think that the Oilers would tank a game like this in front of their home crowd? No, it was one of the best games ever played. And Vladimir Krutov happened to be the best player on the ice. Not Gretzky.

to add more fuel to the fire. who says that the NHL was the best league in the game in the 70's and 80's?? sure you have all the talent in the world in the NHL now but in the 70's and 80's hockey was a minor sport in the USA and only big in Canada.

now in Europe and Russia during this time it was a much larger sport and none of these players had been taken away by NHL teams. this therefore means their leagues were much stronger. (and in some cases much better trained).

I feel you COULD make a case that the NHL was not even the best league in the world in the 70's and 80's. Remember the NHL didn't start becoming the best league untl the NHL started stealing all their players from Europe and Russia.

 

[Sens Rule]

to add more fuel to the fire. who says that the NHL was the best league in the game in the 70's and 80's?? sure you have all the talent in the world in the NHL now but in the 70's and 80's hockey was a minor sport in the USA and only big in Canada.

now in Europe and Russia during this time it was a much larger sport and none of these players had been taken away by NHL teams. this therefore means their leagues were much stronger. (and in some cases much better trained).

I feel you COULD make a case that the NHL was not even the best league in the world in the 70's and 80's. Remember the NHL didn't start becoming the best league untl the NHL started stealing all their players from Europe and Russia.

The NHL has been the best league in the world since it's inception. It may waiver in how much better it is than other leagues but make no mistake it always has been the best league.

 

[Flash Walken]

Saying Elias is the best LW of the last 30 years is like saying Dion Phaneuf is the best defenseman of the last 30 years.

not even close.

 

[Puck Dogg]

And your evidence is....?

There were probably 20 NHL left wingers that could have dominated the AHL-calibre competition that Kharlamov and Krutov faced on a daily basis.

<rant>

I would like to point out that the population of Russia is 143+ million people. Hockey is a major sport there alongside football (which North Americans refer as soccer). The level of play in RHL in very talented, not similar to NHL- as the players tend to keep puck much longer. Last lockout season bunch of NHL stars played in the league and although they were good, none was dominant (with exception of Jagr, of course). Currently, RHL only imports players like Brathwaite and Ling, who are also known as NHL-level players.

Just think how many current stars (not to mention even the ones from the past) Russia has produced (Kovaltchuk, Malkin, Ovetchkin)? Then cosider that Soviet Union dominated the International scene for two decades. During the era you are referring to, every Soviet athlete played in their local league. Top teams could have compteted with any NHL team during that era of "iron curtain".

Your ignorance regarding the level of European play keeps amazing me.



</rant>

 

[Attica]

Elias is good, but I wouldn't put him in the same breath as Shutt, Shanahan and Robitaille.

I wouldn't even put him above Naslund, but to each his own.

 

[Archijerej]

OK, let's take an example.

In 1985 the Edmonton Oilers played the CSKA team from Moscow in Edmonton. There was a full crowd and both teams had the best line up for the match.

CSKA won the game 6-3, even with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Lowe and Fuhr playing for the Oilers.

Do you really think that the Oilers would tank a game like this in front of their home crowd? No, it was one of the best games ever played. And Vladimir Krutov happened to be the best player on the ice. Not Gretzky.

I would risk a thesis that Canadians gave their best effort agains the Soviets (same as Soviets ofcourse). And what I've read confirms that.

 

[Ogopogo*]

OK, let's take an example.

In 1985 the Edmonton Oilers played the CSKA team from Moscow in Edmonton. There was a full crowd and both teams had the best line up for the match.

CSKA won the game 6-3, even with Gretzky, Messier, Kurri, Coffey, Anderson, Lowe and Fuhr playing for the Oilers.

Do you really think that the Oilers would tank a game like this in front of their home crowd? No, it was one of the best games ever played. And Vladimir Krutov happened to be the best player on the ice. Not Gretzky.

I doubt the Oilers took the game all that seriously. Besides, the Oilers actually won that game. Check your history books.

 

[Ogopogo*]

<rant>

I would like to point out that the population of Russia is 143+ million people. Hockey is a major sport there alongside football (which North Americans refer as soccer). The level of play in RHL in very talented, not similar to NHL- as the players tend to keep puck much longer. Last lockout season bunch of NHL stars played in the league and although they were good, none was dominant (with exception of Jagr, of course). Currently, RHL only imports players like Brathwaite and Ling, who are also known as NHL-level players.

Just think how many current stars (not to mention even the ones from the past) Russia has produced (Kovaltchuk, Malkin, Ovetchkin)? Then cosider that Soviet Union dominated the International scene for two decades. During the era you are referring to, every Soviet athlete played in their local league. Top teams could have compteted with any NHL team during that era of "iron curtain".

Your ignorance regarding the level of European play keeps amazing me.



</rant>

In an interview, back in the 80s, Vladislav Tretiak said that Sergei Makarov was definitely more dangerous offensively than Wayne Gretzky.

So, the 'Russian Gretzky' as proclaimed by Vladislav Tretiak, came to North America and never scored more than 86 points in a season. At 32 years old, he finished 16 points behind 10th in NHL scoring on a very good Calgary Flames club.

Wayne Gretzky won a scoring title at 33 and finished 3rd in the NHL scoring race at age 37 on a brutal NY Rangers team.

If Makarov is the 'Russian Gretzky', the NHL was clearly a better league than the Russian league.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

Elias is good, but I wouldn't put him in the same breath as Shutt, Shanahan and Robitaille.

I wouldn't even put him above Naslund, but to each his own.

As I was continuing through the post, those top three were the names that kept coming to my mind, along with Kharlamov.

And I know we're trying to add a historical perspective here, but I'm having trouble yet separating Elias, who is admittedly a lovely player, from other contemporaries like Naslund and Kariya, plus Andrechuk and LeClair.

 

[God Bless Canada]

As I was continuing through the post, those top three were the names that kept coming to my mind, along with Kharlamov.

And I know we're trying to add a historical perspective here, but I'm having trouble yet separating Elias, who is admittedly a lovely player, from other contemporaries like Naslund and Kariya, plus Andrechuk and LeClair.

You want to know how to separate Elias from Nazzy, Kariya, Andreychuk and LeClair? Elias was a key player on two Stanley Cup championship teams. The other four combined for one ring. Elevating your play when it counts is the first and truest sign of greatest. And in the end, winning matters.

 

[Whakahere]

The NHL has been the best league in the world since it's inception. It may waiver in how much better it is than other leagues but make no mistake it always has been the best league.

best league? please explain how. weren't the Russians winning all the international comps in the 70's and 80's? none of these players played in the NHL.

Does that mean the NHL had better players but couldn't pull it together to bet the Russians... or just maybe the Russians had a better league and players inthose days?

P.S. I am not saying the NHL is not the best league now. It is clearly the best league today.

You want to know how to separate Elias from Nazzy, Kariya, Andreychuk and LeClair? Elias was a key player on two Stanley Cup championship teams. The other four combined for one ring. Elevating your play when it counts is the first and truest sign of greatest. And in the end, winning matters.

I guess by your thinking Ray Bourque isn't that good. he won one ring and while he wasgood in that series he wasn't the top player on that team. Therefore Ray should never be called one of the best defencemen ever (clearly not the best defencema in the last 10 years). I think I have made my point

 

[Peter25]

I doubt the Oilers took the game all that seriously. Besides, the Oilers actually won that game. Check your history books.

I think you should check your books. Red Army won that game and the Oilers took the game VERY seriously:

he Toronto Star
SPORTS, Saturday, December 28, 1985, p. C1


EDMONTON, Alberta - EDMONTON (CP) - Viacheslav Bykov and Vladimir Krutov each scored two goals and the Soviet Union's Central Red Army team used its superior speed and defensive skills to defeat Edmonton Oilers 6-3 in exhibition hockey last night.

Alexander Zubin and Alexnader Veselov scored the other Soviet goals. Linemates Marty McSorley, Glenn Anderson and Raimo Summanen scored for Edmonton, which beat a touring Soviet team, 4-3, in 1982.

Last night's meeting of the champions of the Soviet major league and the National Hockey League wasn't as competitive as expected.

A 1-1 first period tie was misleading and only the superb play of goaltender Andy Moog kept the Oilers close the rest of the way.

The reigning Stanley Cup champion Oilers had difficulty all night getting its potent, but injury-riddled offence untracked. Even on six power plays they failed to sustain much offence, twice failing to get a shot on goal with the manpower advantage.

That was largely due to Red Army's superb defence. About the only time it broke down was for brief shifts when the Oilers muckers produced strong forechecking.

The Oilers, on the other hand, committed numerous miscues inside their own zone and the Soviets capitalized on a number of them.,

till, it wasn't until the final half of the third period that Red Army was able to pull away.

Krutov scored his second goal on a fine three-way passing play at 12:09 and Veselov settled the outcome with a good wrist shot at 13:59.

Even through Anderson scored near the 16-minute mark, the Soviet defence was too strong to allow any comeback.

The Soviets dominated the first period but some superb saves by Moog allowed the Oilers to escape with the tie.

The Soviets scored at 11:47, when Zubin lifted a rebound over Moog who had sprawled to stop Nikolia Drozdetski.

The Oilers, who didn't get a shot on goal until 6:38 of the period and had only four all total, evened the count at 16:13 on their third shot.

McSorley twice kicked the puck up from his skates and snapped a rising wrist shot over the stick shoulder of goaltender Sergei Milinkov.

The clubs traded goals early in the second period before the Soviets jumped into a two-goal lead by capitalizing on a couple of defensive errors.

 

[DFF]

You want to know how to separate Elias from Nazzy, Kariya, Andreychuk and LeClair? Elias was a key player on two Stanley Cup championship teams. The other four combined for one ring. Elevating your play when it counts is the first and truest sign of greatest. And in the end, winning matters.

I dont care...First the guy with 500 pts is not the greatest LW in the last 30 yrs...there are a few with over 1000pts....

Second if playoff is matter, there are plenty of others also...Claude Lemieux, John Tonelli, Esa Tiskanen for example, nobody said they are the greatest...and I dont remember Elias winning any Conn Smythe trophy...he is an important member of those winning team but not the key player...

 

[DFF]

Michel Goulet was good, but I dont see no rings on his fingers!

Robitalle was good too, but he wasnt a clutch playoff performer.

Shanahan has 3 rings, can fight, is a leader, and gets my vote.

Elias is great, but has 2 rings. period.

Rings on finger can be one criteria but it's vastly overrated unless you have Conn Smyth trophies to go with it if you want to be considered the greatest.

There are plenty of guys with plenty of rings by going along for a ride...

How many rings does Ken Daneyko or Charlie Huddy have, How many rings does Ray Bourque have?