Interesting Info: Part XIX (Jackets-related "tidbits" here)

[Samkow]

http://www.columbusalive.com/entert...eason-preview-face-of-franchise-zach-werenski

Nice little article on Werenski. Recommended reading.

 

[CBJx614]

Jackets are ranked 6th in ESPNs power rankings.

http://www.espn.com/nhl/story/_/id/...-leafs-chicago-blackhawks-early-front-runners

Artemi Panarin -- who was brought over from Chicago in one of the summer's highest-profile trades -- hasn't missed a beat with his new team, logging three assists through three games. And after it looked like Sonny Milano might have plateaued; the 21-year-old already has four goals this season.

 

[Old Guy]

I would expect to slide between 4 and 10 all season. Significant time outside that range would surprise me.

 

[Cowumbus]

Would anyone else like to see us go after a skilled enforcer? A 4th liner to protect our stars, I think you need one.

 

[Doug19]

No, with Foligno, Dubinsky, Anderson, Jenner, Calvert, etc I think our guys can take care of themselves.

 

[Theo Von]

Would anyone else like to see us go after a skilled enforcer? A 4th liner to protect our stars, I think you need one.

No, thanks. We’re already one of the grittiest teams in the league

 

[Viqsi]

Would anyone else like to see us go after a skilled enforcer? A 4th liner to protect our stars, I think you need one.

Sure, then we can follow up by picking up a guy or two to play the rover position. It's just as relevant in today's game, after all.


If you can't play hockey - not ice-skates boxing, hockey - I don't want you anywhere near this team.

 

[Jackets Woodchuck]

I didn't know where to put this, so I figured this was the catch-all thread:

Does anyone know the proper way to fold this year's pocket schedule? The ad is on the back of the same panel as the front of the schedule, so getting that to the back (like a normal pocket schedule) is an impossibility.

Also any fronts different than the Wennberg one or ads different than the OhioHealth one on the pocket skeds?

 

[TaketheCannoli]

Sure, then we can follow up by picking up a guy or two to play the rover position. It's just as relevant in today's game, after all.


If you can't play hockey - not ice-skates boxing, hockey - I don't want you anywhere near this team.

Well do the Habs have any good rovers on the market? I figure one more loss and they will be forced to blow it up and maybe we could grab one for a pick,

 

[Cowumbus]

@Viqsi I disagree completely. Look at Gretzky, he ALWAYS had someone there to protect him. In case you can’t read, I also said “skilled enforcer” a player similar to Lucic/Simmonds. We don’t need them to be as good as those guys but a 3rd or fourth liner, why not. I want our stars to be protected. I’ll give you Anderson, but Foligno/Calvert etc isn’t going to intimidate anyone. Boyle would be the type of guy I’m talking about.

 

[Viqsi]

Look at Gretzky

Oh come on. Comparing Jackets roster issues to Gretzky's day is absurd because Gretzky retired before ever the Jackets set skate on ice. We're back to "let's trade for a rover".

I also said “skilled enforcer” a player similar to Lucic/Simmonds.

Okay, we're now well into Alternate Reality here, because we have FIVE of those guys already. You've already mentioned Anderson and foolishly blithely dismissed Foligno; add to them Jenner, Dubinsky, and arguably Dubois. And Dalpe is playing that style as well. And on the blueline, Savard and JJ both love to beat the snot out of folks. And that's before we start talking about firey little guys like Calvert whom you also like to dismiss because oh noes he's 5'11" instead of 6'2" wahh wahh we're so doomed.

And it shows on the ice - our skill guys aren't exactly under siege and they're not being taken out of the play. Panarin and Milano and Wennberg have been putting together some pretty awesome skill plays. So have Werenski and Jones. And Cam is still Cam. Folks aren't getting beaten to the puck, we're not losing board battles due to physicality, and nobody's getting injured. We've been trying to go a little too cute getting to the high slot, but that's not a lack of ability; it's lack of execution. The problem does not exist. It's like saying we need a replacement starting goaltender because our current one can't make a save - it's not just merely out of touch with the modern game, it's demonstrably wrong.

I get that you're all freaked out and intimidated and scared that Pittsburgh added OMG RYAN REAVES but, y'know what, when you've got a lineup like ours you don't need to pull that nonsense.

 

[Cowumbus]

Oh come on. Comparing Jackets roster issues to Gretzky's day is absurd because Gretzky retired before ever the Jackets set skate on ice. We're back to "let's trade for a rover".



Okay, we're now well into Alternate Reality here, because we have FIVE of those guys already. You've already mentioned Anderson and foolishly blithely dismissed Foligno; add to them Jenner, Dubinsky, and arguably Dubois. And Dalpe is playing that style as well. And on the blueline, Savard and JJ both love to beat the snot out of folks. And that's before we start talking about firey little guys like Calvert whom you also like to dismiss because oh noes he's 5'11" instead of 6'2" wahh wahh we're so doomed.

And it shows on the ice - our skill guys aren't exactly under siege and they're not being taken out of the play. Panarin and Milano and Wennberg have been putting together some pretty awesome skill plays. So have Werenski and Jones. And Cam is still Cam. Folks aren't getting beaten to the puck, we're not losing board battles due to physicality, and nobody's getting injured. We've been trying to go a little too cute getting to the high slot, but that's not a lack of ability; it's lack of execution. The problem does not exist. It's like saying we need a replacement starting goaltender because our current one can't make a save - it's not just merely out of touch with the modern game, it's demonstrably wrong.

I get that you're all freaked out and intimidated and scared that Pittsburgh added OMG RYAN REAVES but, y'know what, when you've got a lineup like ours you don't need to pull that nonsense.

No it’s not that at all to be quite honest. I’m not that worried about Reaves or Pittsburgh. I just think players like Wennberg, Bjorkstrand, Milano might play better because of it. If we had Reaves for example, and told him if anyone hits one of those three, that he’s to have their number. Maybe those guys would have more confidence playing and being less timid. I think they are too scared to make mistakes, because mistakes get you benched.

The best player to ever play the game wasn’t going to the Kings without McSorley.

Maybe you’re right, I just think we can get “tougher” or at least try and go back to our old style of actually hitting people.

 

[Jovavic]

We hit people during the Pens series, how'd that work out? JJ left his area to hit a guy, leaving someone wide open for an easy goal, recently. The game has, thankfully, moved on from stars being "protected"

 

[MoeBartoli]

With all due respect to our beloved Jody Shelley, players like him are hockey dinosaurs. The Gretzky years were a diffent time. One needs to go back no further than the early 2000s to see that fights are down by virtually half and games with fights are down 40%. That trend I see likely to continue as the CHL and other feeder leagues spawn fighters matriculating through their systems

Guys will continue to drop the gloves on occasion. We have a handful on our team. But it's not their signature, rather simply part of their game when needed. Andy is a great example and I'm more than fine with that in today's NHL.

 

[CBJx614]

No it’s not that at all to be quite honest. I’m not that worried about Reaves or Pittsburgh. I just think players like Wennberg, Bjorkstrand, Milano might play better because of it. If we had Reaves for example, and told him if anyone hits one of those three, that he’s to have their number. Maybe those guys would have more confidence playing and being less timid. I think they are too scared to make mistakes, because mistakes get you benched.

The best player to ever play the game wasn’t going to the Kings without McSorley.

Maybe you’re right, I just think we can get “tougher” or at least try and go back to our old style of actually hitting people.

You do understand that was an entirely different era of hockey right? Where you were allowed to slash and hook and hold and get away with because it was apart of the game.

Today's game is quickly heading towards being speed and skilled based.

How did Pittsburgh do last year without any grinder's? Or the year before that?

How about Chicago? They definitely didn't have near the amount of grinder's or two way players that we have.

How many teams have more physical, two way, skiled gritty players than the jackets? I'd bet there aren't many seeing how we're a top 10/5 team in the league depending on who you talk to.

 

[Old Guy]

I’m not certain where this post should actually go, so I’m going to put it here.

I’ve come to conclusion that after Todd Richards was fired and Coach Tortorella was hired, he was given about 3-4 weeks to evaluate the team. Then Tortorella, Jarmo, JD and Asst. GM Bill Zito sat down and talked about what Torts thought was here and what could be done. I can imagine Tortorella saying “there are 3 things that are wrong; first, we don’t have enough skill to compete with the upper echelon of teams in the league, second, the team is not in tip top physical shape, and third, they are mentally weak. And by that I mean they don’t have the mental fortitude to deal with and overcome the adversity that championship teams face”. They ended the meeting by agreeing that Jarmo and Billy Zito would begin to address the skill issue. Coach John Tortorella agreed that he would handle the physical and mental conditioning.

Several weeks later, Jarmo moved Ryan Johansen not because Johansen was out of shape or was mentally weak, but Jarmo knew that he had an opportunity to improve the blue line. Yes, he knew that Werenski was coming, but knew that he needed whatever Werenski would bring plus something more in the skill area. Tortorella began to address the mental side of the challenge by digging out of 0-7 hole he inherited. For the most part, he did okay, laying a foundation during the remainder of that season. Tortorella got an unexpected bonus, when players like Bjorkstrand, Anderson, Milano, and Werenski went on an AHL Championship run. That Championship gave this core group of players something to galvanize around and an opportunity to grow the mental fortitude necessary of champions. The Jenner’s, Calvert’s, Dubinsky’s and Foligino’s saw what was happening below them and took notice. About that time, Coach Tortorella called his Captain aside and said frankly; “I’m not certain you are captain material.” This again tested the mental aspect of not only his captain, but the players the captain was responsible for.

When the World Cup of Hockey concluded, the real foundation was laid for the physical conditioning aspect that had been lacking. The 2 mile run, plus endless bag skates were the gauntlet. 2 players met the 12 minute run deadline. When the season started, Torts, Jarmo, JD and Zito began to assess what they had. With Anderson, Werenski, and Nutivaara added, it meant more skill was here. Bjorkstrand was sent a message when he went back to Cleveland. Then Coach Tortorella got another gift when the calendar turned to December 2016 – the winning streak grew. Tortorella chose to see how far skill would carry them, knowing, the entire time, the other real test was coming. At the end of the winning streak, everybody had a very good idea of the amount of skill available, but the mental test began. Philadelphia won 10 straight about that same time, then proceeded to lost 10 straight. What would the CBJ do about what was now over and in the history book with about 41 games remaining? Bjorkstrand came up and stuck. Gabe Carlsson made an end of season appearance.

After 10 extra days, the management team knew that skill was better, but more was needed. Physical conditioning had made the most progress, (8 guys made the 12 minute deadline) but it had to improve a little more and become ingrained; become part of the culture if you will. And the mental fortitude was better, (the captain responded in spades) but still not where it needs to be. Saad gets traded for Panarin, Hartnell and Gagner leave. Now the team has 4 more rookies; PLD, Milano, Dalpe, and Carlsson. Those 4 plus Anderson, Werenski, Bjorkstrand, Nutivaara, Hannikainen and Sedlak represent the young guys that were not on the NHL roster at April 2016 – 18 months ago.

If you could get Jarmo to be very honest, I think he would tell you, “I’ve got a group of guys that I and my scouts and development people believe will be champions at some point. It might not be this year, it might not be next year, but these guys are going to be very, very good. At this point, I’m willing to wait and let them grow together. If some deal falls in my lap, I will take it, but the bricks have been acquired and assembled. Now we just need to let the cement cure”.

If you could get Tortorella to be very honest, I believe he would say, “These last 3 wins have begun to show me the resilience and mental fortitude they are developing. I’m going to bitch at them about skill and chemistry, while I’m doing flips inside about their mental resilience”. “When they begin to show me their skill and chemistry, I’ll be doing flips inside while I’m going to bitch about their mental resilience”. “And by the end of this season, if we can overcome the injuries and problems we will face, the playoffs will tell us how much progress we have made on the two areas I was assigned to develop”.

I believe that the CBJ are uniquely positioned to make strides this season. But all those rookies and 2nd year players will be very hard to mold into a Stanley Cup champion or even an Eastern Conference Champion this year. But I really expect this team to stand pat at this point and just let this group work together, grow together, have fun together, struggle together, and (at times) fail together. There will probably be a couple surprises that fill the stands and put smiles on faces in Columbus. This next phase of growth (up through New Year’s Eve) will give hints of which of the 3 aspects is closer to being a finished product; Skill, physical conditioning or mental fortitude. I personally think the skill is still lacking, but with experience for guys like PLD, Milano, Anderson, and Carlsson that shortage will dissolve. I think the physical conditioning is close. And based upon the last 3 wins, the mental fortitude is probably further along than I really thought.

 

[JacketsFanWest]

Look at Gretzky, he ALWAYS had someone there to protect him.

The idea of an enforcer protecting star players relies on opposing players thinking about being punched in a fight as severe enough of a punishment that they would be afraid. That doesn't happen. If Panarin or Atkinson are in a vulnerable position on the ice and as the opposing player in that split second as he's lining them up for a high hit thinks "Oh no, I can't hit them, I might get punched in the face by the CBJ Enforcer!" then that player should hang up their skates. That simply doesn't happen. Opposing players want to make the big hit and they aren't going to care about the consequences - other than a pat on the back by their teammates and coaches.

Pushing and shoving after the whistle can be handled by linemates.

 

[Monk]

Enforcer duties should probably be shifted to the fans.

 

[Hello Johnny]

The best player to ever play the game wasn’t going to the Kings without McSorley.

Nor would he have been traded without $15 million in cash going to Edmonton. The game has changed a lot.

 

[Samkow]

Did Mayor Bee survive the changeover? Got a copule questions for him. This will pique his interest and bring him back.

 

[Johansen2Foligno]

Enforcer duties should probably be shifted to the fans.

Agreed. There are many on here who defend CROSBY 24/7. I don't say anything bad about the guy anymore.

 

[thebus88]

Don't wanna "pick" on you, just wanna respond to a couple things. This goes to all you "anti-toughness" folk.

The idea of an enforcer protecting star players relies on opposing players thinking about being punched in a fight as severe enough of a punishment that they would be afraid. That doesn't happen..

Is anyone really saying we need an "enforcer"? Even guys as "bad" (says people who probably can't ice skate) as Prout and Boll are quite a bit different than true "enforcer" types like Shelley, who yes, do not exist in the league anymore. 2-3 points I want to add to contest your ideas on said "punishment". #1: If you think that guys don't "think twice" about doing something questionable or "illegal" to an opponent (star/important player or not) that might causing an intimidating/potentially dangerous teammate to retaliate, you are wrong. This is a contact sport and fighting is, and should be, still "legal" for mainly this reason. #2: Having the other team return questionable/"illegal" hits to you or other teammates (star/important player or not) is probably the most thought about "punishment", not getting punched IMO, however that could change game/team by game/team.

If Panarin or Atkinson are in a vulnerable position on the ice and as the opposing player in that split second as he's lining them up for a high hit thinks "Oh no, I can't hit them, I might get punched in the face by the CBJ Enforcer!" then that player should hang up their skates. That simply doesn't happen. Opposing players want to make the big hit and they aren't going to care about the consequences - other than a pat on the back by their teammates and coaches.

With the thought of Dalton Prout being 40 feet away or a Jared Boll able to "legally" remove YOUR best player or d man next shift during a simple forecheck? Yes, yes they do.

With the thought of a Boone Jenner/Brandon Dubinsky/Nick Foligno coming in, removing them from the game for AT LEAST 5+ min, along with the possibility of them hurting a hand or in general? No, you're right, sounds like a good idea. 2 for 1. Then you guys can complain about that center depth some more.

We didn't lose to Pittsburgh because we played "overly" physical last year. That simply didn't happen. We lost because Bob was shit. We have to go through Pitt and/or Wash. Means we'll have to go through Reaves and/or T Wilson, who IMO, has potential for many issues without a Boll/Prout on CBJ.

Why did "back to back Stanley cup champs!!" not only bring Reaves in, but spend the assets they did to bring him in? Are they champs because they are ALL SKILL and don't "waste" roster spots on "enforcers"? Or is it simply because they have good management (and 1/2 "generational" players) that realized they actually needed to add toughness because of last year????

Hmmmmmmmmm.......

 

[Monk]

Don't wanna "pick" on you, just wanna respond to a couple things. This goes to all you "anti-toughness" folk.



Is anyone really saying we need an "enforcer"? Even guys as "bad" (says people who probably can't ice skate) as Prout and Boll are quite a bit different than true "enforcer" types like Shelley, who yes, do not exist in the league anymore. 2-3 points I want to add to contest your ideas on said "punishment". #1: If you think that guys don't "think twice" about doing something questionable or "illegal" to an opponent (star/important player or not) that might causing an intimidating/potentially dangerous teammate to retaliate, you are wrong. This is a contact sport and fighting is, and should be, still "legal" for mainly this reason. #2: Having the other team return questionable/"illegal" hits to you or other teammates (star/important player or not) is probably the most thought about "punishment", not getting punched IMO, however that could change game/team by game/team.



With the thought of Dalton Prout being 40 feet away or a Jared Boll able to "legally" remove YOUR best player or d man next shift during a simple forecheck? Yes, yes they do.

With the thought of a Boone Jenner/Brandon Dubinsky/Nick Foligno coming in, removing them from the game for AT LEAST 5+ min, along with the possibility of them hurting a hand or in general? No, you're right, sounds like a good idea. 2 for 1. Then you guys can complain about that center depth some more.

We didn't lose to Pittsburgh because we played "overly" physical last year. That simply didn't happen. We lost because Bob was ****. We have to go through Pitt and/or Wash. Means we'll have to go through Reaves and/or T Wilson, who IMO, has potential for many issues without a Boll/Prout on CBJ.

Why did "back to back Stanley cup champs!!" not only bring Reaves in, but spend the assets they did to bring him in? Are they champs because they are ALL SKILL and don't "waste" roster spots on "enforcers"? Or is it simply because they have good management (and 1/2 "generational" players) that realized they actually needed to add toughness because of last year????

Hmmmmmmmmm.......

If you have a guy scoring 100 points instead of 2 scoring 50, you have an extra roster spot to fill with a fisticuffs fella.

 

[Monk]

If you have a guy scoring 100 points instead of 2 scoring 50, you have an extra roster spot to fill with a fisticuffs fella.

Also, if you pay 1-2 guys 8-10 million dollars, you're probably going to have to pay someone little enough that they won't be very good at hockey.

If you're the GM that just signed him or his new teammate, do you say "He really sucks but we needed a warm body and he was affordable," or do you say "We're looking forward to this player creating space for our talented players and defending them when need be."

 

[Viqsi]

I for one love how we can have about a third of the team made up of tough gritty guys and yet still get fans labelled as "anti-toughness" because said fans don't see the value in throwing in yet another enforcer.

It'd be like someone being labelled "anti-center" 'cause they don't want Pittsburgh to add another #1C.