IIHF: No Russians in Turin 'stupid'
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octopi said:
Lindros haven't. Kidd was just coming in. Others, I think, were in. The 94 edition also had some active ones: Greg Johnson, Savage, Nedved and others. But it is true that they were all marginal.
kdb209
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Den said:
With the exception of Sean Burke, none of those players were established NHL players before the '92 Olympics. They were basically all AHL, Junior, or College players before joining the Canadian National Team which played 60+ games before the Olympics.
Burke didn't play in the NHL in '91-'92. He played for the Canadian Nat'l Team and the San Diego Gulls (IHL). I don't know why he took a year off between NHL stints in New Jersey and Hartford - contact holdout?
Trevor Kidd didn't join Calgary untill after the '92 olympics (only 2 NHL games played in '92). Same with Jason Wooley (1 game with the Caps) and Joe Juneau (14 games with the Bruins) and Kent Manderville (15 games with the Leafs).
Lindros didn't join the Flyers untill '92-'93.
The 1991-92 Canadian National Team with links to career stats:
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0004901992.html
kdb209 said:
Marginal, of course. Entry-level NHLers. No arguing. But Burke, Archibald, Lindberg, Tippet, Hannan , Plavsic, Giles seem to be firmly (kind of) in... Burke was certainly in, he had like several NHL seasons already.
kdb209
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Den said:
Nedved (3 years in Vancouver) and Chris Kontos (well travelled journeyman, 230 games total for 4 teams over 11 years, after his last NHL season in Tampa) were the only ones with significant NHL experience.
Brian Savage, Paul Kariya, Todd Warriner, Chris Therien, Adrian Aucoin, Brett Lindros, Jason Marshall, Greg Johnson, Manny Legace, and Corey Hirsch were on the team but started their NHL careers after the '94 Olympics. Well, Marshall played 2 games with teh Blues in '91-'92.
Before '98, the Canadian (and US) Olympic teams were made up of young kids (AHL, Junior, or College) before their NHL carreers - with rare exceptions.
http://www.hockeydb.com/ihdb/stats/leagues/seasons/teams/0004901994.html
kdb209 said:
Yeah, yeah. May be. I am too lazy to check the 94 team stats. But 7 people on 92 is hefty
kdb209
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Den said:
Not Really. Burke was the only real bona fide NHL player.
The rest were either borderline AHL players or vets at the very end of their careers (Kontos and Giles).
If you look at what was and became NHL caliber talent, they started their careers after the olympics.
The key thing, though, is that none of them were under NHL contract or on an NHL roster at the time. NHL teams did not allow their players to participate in the Olympics - they wouldn't release them and give them the time off. The Olympic players basically took a year off and played a full exhibition season with the Canadian National Team before the Olympics.
This fundamentally changed in '98, when the league shut down for two weeks and allowed the real NHL players to play.
Buffaloed
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kdb209 said:
It could do serious damage to the NHL by giving Russian players a strong incentive to play in Russia. Top prospects would be promised spots on the Olympic team. I doubt if any would come over until the 2008-09 season. Russian stars in the NHL wouldn't sign contracts beyond 2007 so they could play in Russia for the 2007-08 season and be on the Olympic team. The NHL would suffer on the ice and in the stands. Barring Russian players in the NHL from participating in the 2008 Olympics would backfire big time.
kdb209
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Buffaloed said:
There will be no NHL players in the 2008 Olympics - unless they take up track or swimming.
The Winter Olympics are in '06 (in Turin) and '10 (Vancouver).
This could be a short term leverage play to get the Russian federation to sign off on the IIHF deal now, before Turin.
Things will be settled one way or another before Vancouver - either the Russians will sign on to the current, or renegotiated, IIHF transfer agreement (most likely), the NHL teams will accept negotiating individual transfers with RSL teams (least likely), NHL teams will just wait for RSL contracts to expire and pay nothing, or NHL & RSL teams will fight over contracts in the courts.
Buffaloed
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.kdb209 said:
I knew I should have gone to bed early. Too many hours looking at a computer monitor.
It'll still alienate the Russian players and could set up the scenario I outlined in 2010. I think this would only harden the Russan Federation position and make a resolution more difficult. The NHL would be better off using the carrot than stick. They should be exploring mutually beneficial ways to give more money to the Russian Federation. I would look at things such as allowing Russia to host a World Cup tournament, a tour by RSL teams in North America in the offseason, NHL teams holding training camps and playing exhibition games in Russia, etc.. The NHL should also explore ways to make European players in the NHL/AHL more available for international tournaments.
Hopefully cooler heads will prevail and they'll get it worked out with the IIHF. If they don't, a lot of teams are going to want extensions on the deadline to sign Russian draft picks. The NHL can't make a blanket extension and change the terms of the CBA without the NHLPA signing on. The players are pretty beaten down now, but they may not feel that way next summer, especially if they're giving back a lot of escrow money. If the NHL wants to reopen the entry level system portion of the CBA to renegotiation, the NHLPA may demand that other issues are reopened as well.
therealdeal
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Den said:
They weren't proffesionals at the time. Sean Burke didn't have an NHL contract, he was playing for the national team.
jekoh said:Yeah, they should make their own tournament a farce, now that would really strengthen their position
I would suggest that if the IIHF demanded that the Russians sign a deal before they are allowed to participate, and the Russians chose not to, then it would be the Russians turning the thing into a farce, not the IIHF.
The Russians know they have nothing to lose, specifically because the IIHF will not stand up to them.
jekoh
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No, with that ridiculous demand, it would still be the IIHF. Not to mention the Russian federation could go to court and win.Resolute said:
The IIHF itself has nothing to win and everything to lose, that's what you people don't seem to get.Resolute said:
If the Russians do play amateurs at the games, I hope... PRAY that a team like Belarus or Switzerland crushes them into the ground.
And it'll be fun to watch Team Canada vs. them... i've got bets on a score of 28-0
And it'll be fun to watch Team Canada vs. them... i've got bets on a score of 28-0
therealdeal
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futurcorerock said:
Routes like that don't occur at the mens level anymore, only at the juniour levels.
A huge route would be like 7-0, or like 8-1.
Epsilon
#basta
roshiajin said:Amateurs? Why would Russia play amateurs? I don't get it.
A lot of simpletons seem to think that "non-NHL/NBA/MLB/NFL player" means "amateur".
jekoh
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On the grounds that they did not break any IIHF rule.Resolute said:
Well they would lose the label "best on best" for their tournament, for starters. Also, I don't think it's in their best interest to turn the RHF into a belligerent.Resolute said:
Really, Canada and the USA have a league, the NHL, that is not even part of the IIHF and instead of banning those two countries the IIHF would ban another one because its league hasn't been cute with the NHL ? That just doesn't make any sense.
Who knows who'd they play.Epsilon said:
Apparently they aren't too keen on why the IIHF agreement would protect them from getting fleeced.
And let's not forget that the Russian Nation will be unable to see their "best" on the ice... ever. Unless they are fond of watching their one NHL game a week, or they can pony up the big bucks to draw superstars.
I'm questioning Russian Federation intelligence, here.
futurcorerock said:
Does a country (state, entity) have intelligence? Whatever....The Olympic team will be probably 40% RSL players anyway. Sushinsky, Kharitonov, Eremenko/Sokolov, Kuljash, Datsyuk, Morozov, possibly: Korolyuk, Malkin, Zinovjev and who knows who else. About 40% of "our best" stay home these days. It is almost certain that the first line will be RSL.
This said, the discussion is pretty pointless because the NHL will never block players from going to the Olympics: no NHL team in their right mind will forfeit a prime-time self-promotion commercial, say, "Mad Max goes to Turin".
Jaded-Fan
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I have no clue why this could not have been worked out. This is all about the money, and the Russians need to know what they can expect and what they can not. I have no clue how they think this 'stand' of theirs is going to play out but in the end I see no scenerio that will qualify as a win for them.
1) If the Russians think that they are going to get, unlike anywhere else in the world, player by player negotiations with NHL clubs - well, good luck with that one. It ain't gonna happen.
2) They may not get their best players in the Olympics.
3) If no agreement is signed then they will eventually lose the players who wish to come to the NHL with no compensation. Either in a middle of the night flight out of Russia (the thing that I think the agreement was meant to avoid, it was a compromise was it not to guarentee from the NHL a set cost and in exchange end such practices, or am I wrong?). Or at least when the players contract ends, he is gone without a dime being paid. Either way I do not see how the RSL 'wins.' They would get the player under any circumstance if he wants to stay, but get a payday that they likely would not if he just takes off early.
So to reiterate, what does Russia actually see happening when this all plays out? A small sweetening of the pot? Likely they could have had that months ago. More just is not happening.
1) If the Russians think that they are going to get, unlike anywhere else in the world, player by player negotiations with NHL clubs - well, good luck with that one. It ain't gonna happen.
2) They may not get their best players in the Olympics.
3) If no agreement is signed then they will eventually lose the players who wish to come to the NHL with no compensation. Either in a middle of the night flight out of Russia (the thing that I think the agreement was meant to avoid, it was a compromise was it not to guarentee from the NHL a set cost and in exchange end such practices, or am I wrong?). Or at least when the players contract ends, he is gone without a dime being paid. Either way I do not see how the RSL 'wins.' They would get the player under any circumstance if he wants to stay, but get a payday that they likely would not if he just takes off early.
So to reiterate, what does Russia actually see happening when this all plays out? A small sweetening of the pot? Likely they could have had that months ago. More just is not happening.
Paxon
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Resolute said:
You are acting like the Russians are doing something wrong and that the IIHF needs to stand up and smack them down. Please. The RSL has every right to negotiate in an attempt to get what they want. I see no reasonable connection disqualifying their right to participate in the Olympics.
What logic makes you conclude that a transfer agreement between two pro leagues is necessary for players from a country that contains one of those leagues to participate in the Olympics? The NHL doesn't have a transfer agreement with the RSL just the same as the RSL doesn't have one with the NHL. Maybe U.S. players shouldn't be allowed to participate either.
As the article says, it would be stupid -- and completely unfair intimidation -- for the IIHF to force the issue here.
Like U.S. companies don't have a bad enough reputation of bullying foreign companies and countries through the favoring of international bodies.
Can we please put this to rest? If NHL players go to the Olympics, Russian NHL players will go to the Olympics.Jaded-Fan said:
Jaded-Fan
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Weary said:
....... and this is settled because you say it is? I do not personally know one way or another but as it had been mentioned before in articles as a possibility I hardly think that it is settled until official word comes down. Hell, the fact that in the article that forms the basis of this thread it the IIHF president felt the need to give an opinion against this action sort of speaks to the fact that this is hardly a settled issue, doesn't it?
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