If you combine the output of Joy Division / New Order...

x Tame Impala

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Imagine if someone other than the three of us came in here and said that David Bowie, Talking Heads, or the Velvets were better than the Beatles. I think you two are confusing a band you really love (maybe even your favorite band?) with a band that's the greatest of all time.

Their work is awesome, legendary even, but they're not better than the big 3. It's kind of like you're saying that Crosby or Lindros is better than Gretzky and Lemieux.

That cake just won't bake fellas!
 
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Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
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Imagine if someone other than the three of us came in here and said that David Bowie, Talking Heads, or the Velvets were better than the Beatles. I think you two are confusing a band you really love (maybe even your favorite band?) with a band that's the greatest of all time.

Their work is awesome, legendary even, but they're not better than the big 3. It's kind of like you're saying that Crosby or Lindros is better than Gretzky and Lemieux.

That cake just won't bake fellas!


No, it isn't. In hockey, there's a specific goal - winning hockey games/the championship - and there are various statistics and formulas with which we can then judge the individual players who can help you reach that goal. There isn't anything of the sort in music and even factors like sale are highly dependent on others factors that are outside of a musical context, like advertising.

And it wouldn't bother me at all if someone came in and said something of the sorts - hell, I believe The Velvet Underground were a better band than The Beatles myself. And it also wouldn't be a bizarre opinion. Artistically, The Velvet Underground are very much on that same critical pedestal as The Beatles. They're considered giants of popular music and an album like The Velvet Underground and Nico is widely regarded as influential as any Beatles album.
 

Ceremony

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tbh I'm quite disappointed this thread has descended into petty arguing which doesn't feature me at the centre, rightly dismissing anyone who thinks Joy Division are better or more influential than New Order and that New Order themselves - all nine studio albums considered - are unquestionably the greatest band ever
 

Shareefruck

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Imagine if someone other than the three of us came in here and said that David Bowie, Talking Heads, or the Velvets were better than the Beatles. I think you two are confusing a band you really love (maybe even your favorite band?) with a band that's the greatest of all time.

Their work is awesome, legendary even, but they're not better than the big 3. It's kind of like you're saying that Crosby or Lindros is better than Gretzky and Lemieux.

That cake just won't bake fellas!
That argument is really easy to pick apart.

If music had a goal, it would be conventionally accepted to be more along the lines of "to make a rewarding connection to the listener" rather than "be really impressive at things that can easily be measured and quantified". To measure success in that, you can't really get around the fact that it's at least somewhat dependent on the experience itself. To scoff at subjectivity misses that point, IMO.

If the goal of a hockey player were purely to give a satisfying fan experience, and winning was irrelevant, reasonable arguments could be made that players other than Gretzky, Orr, and Lemieux are the greatest players ever. There wouldn't be available stats to sufficiently prove that they are. Similar logic applies to musical value judgments.

It's not entirely implausible for someone to think that David Bowie, Talking Heads, or The Velvets are better than The Beatles and to have good reasons for feeling that way. I think The Velvets are better than The Beatles as well. Their first two albums are arguably more bold, innovative, and tight than anything The Beatles have done, IMO. But it's a close one.
 
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Aladyyn

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I'm not even sure what a good reason would be outside of '' I get the most pleasure out of listening to X. ''
I don't think "pleasure" is a good qualifier. There's a lot of incredible unpleasant music out there. "Satisfaction" is better imo.
 

Mikeaveli

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Sep 25, 2013
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I love the Beatles, and still think any number of bands are greater than them.
This except with Joy Division.

Also I agree about The Velvet Underground being better than Zeppelin and the Stones, but I do prefer the Beatles over them. Probably my two favourite rock bands.
 

Dipsy Doodle

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If we're counting individual artists too, then James Brown, Fela Kuti, John Coltrane etc. have a case.
 

kihei

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Jun 14, 2006
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Imagine if someone other than the three of us came in here and said that David Bowie, Talking Heads, or the Velvets were better than the Beatles. I think you two are confusing a band you really love (maybe even your favorite band?) with a band that's the greatest of all time.
Ditto.
 
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Spring in Fialta

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In the three years since the discussion, the more I've listened to The Beatles, the more I think there's no serious comparison to make between them and The Velvet Underground quality-wise. The Beatles are good but they get left in the dust by VU. I can't think of one thing they do better besides having more fans.
 

x Tame Impala

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In the three years since the discussion, the more I've listened to The Beatles, the more I think there's no serious comparison to make between them and The Velvet Underground quality-wise. I can't think of one thing they do better besides having more fans.

Cool.
 

Ceremony

blahem
Jun 8, 2012
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I am sure you’re a big fan of Peter Hook & The Light, have you seen this?


The concert was originally performed in 2015 to an audience of just 500, to mark the 35th anniversary of the death of Joy Divisions frontman Ian Curtis. The singer lived with epilepsy, anxiety and depression. Sadly, on 18 May 1980, he took his own life at the age of 23.

Absolutely stunned that P. Hook is so flimsy on the details.

In all seriousness I watched some, and it's even more unedifying than I could ever have imagined.
 

OzzyFan

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Sep 17, 2012
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Imagine if someone other than the three of us came in here and said that David Bowie, Talking Heads, or the Velvets were better than the Beatles. I think you two are confusing a band you really love (maybe even your favorite band?) with a band that's the greatest of all time.

3rded this for sure. I mean, there certainly are people out there would agree with OP, but it's a small portion of the general or educated population that would, especially in this already "opinion/taste based" debate. There are so many examples in this thread. There might be a way of having his answer be correct with an asterisk, but I don't know what that asterisk guideline would be.

Top Discography as comparative battlegrounds is a fairly vague topic also. Beatles/Stones/Zeppelin/Dylan/Floyd are generally the popular consensus/"rock consensus" there, Elvis/Elton/Madonna/Michael Jackson might be in the discussion if you lean pure pop or even the general population's tastes possibly(although Elvis might be 'aging out'), and as touched upon there are numerous other bands/artists in consideration, even other genres, that have arguably "epic" or "transcendent" albums for various reasons.
 
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Shareefruck

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3rded this for sure. I mean, there certainly are people out there would agree with OP, but it's a small portion of the general or educated population that would, especially in this already "opinion/taste based" debate. There are so many examples in this thread. There might be a way of having his answer be correct with an asterisk, but I don't know what that asterisk guideline would be.

Top Discography as comparative battlegrounds is a fairly vague topic also. Beatles/Stones/Zeppelin/Dylan/Floyd are generally the popular consensus/"rock consensus" there, Elvis/Elton/Madonna/Michael Jackson might be in the discussion if you lean pure pop or even the general population's tastes possibly(although Elvis might be 'aging out'), and as touched upon there are numerous other bands/artists in consideration, even other genres, that have arguably "epic" or "transcendent" albums for various reasons.
But that's ultimately just a fallacious appeal to popularity, accessibility, narrative authority, lowest common denominator average perception, and pop culture relevance, which are undeniable with those "consensus" bands for sure, but I really don't see what's objectively compelling about that when it comes to what we ought to think about actual greatness.

I mean, look at what those standards suggest about modern acts-- Why are we happy to apply those same clearly faulty standards to the 60s and 70s, dripped with historical bias, nostalgia, and non-music-based sentiment? If anything, it's an unlikely outlier that The Beatles, Stones, or Zeppelin are as popular as they are given how good they actually are (and it's driven by numerous other factors that have nothing to do with how good their music is, such as fashion, marketability, charisma, accessibility, being at the right place and time doing the right thing, etc.)-- it shouldn't be viewed as a correlation that suggests anything about their level of greatness by any means.

If we want to label them as clearly the most iconic bands of all time, on this basis, sure, that would be pretty fair and I would go along with that argument (The Rolling Stones are clearly far more iconic than Joy Division). But that's a very different idea altogether.

While there obviously isn't really an objectively satisfying way to measure how great a band is in general, this "more verifiable" method is certainly an invalid and irrational one, and when you remove it from consideration, the lines become very blurred, ambiguous, and dependent on what qualities one actually finds meaningful and valuable.

In my view, the term "greatness" has much more appropriate meaning if it's used to refer to the artists that we think deserve the most credit rather than the artists that happen to get it for a multitude of reasons (some relevant but many irrelevant).
 
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Miguel Cairo

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In the three years since the discussion, the more I've listened to The Beatles, the more I think there's no serious comparison to make between them and The Velvet Underground quality-wise. The Beatles are good but they get left in the dust by VU. I can't think of one thing they do better besides having more fans.

I personally strongly prefer The Velvet Ubderground to The Beatles, but I think The Beatles pretty obviously are better at short classic pop songs. YMMV for how important that is to you, but The Beatles have dozens of them while The Velvet Underground barely even attempted any. Their most pop album is Loaded, and that seems to be the fourth favorite album for most VU fans I’ve spoken to.
 

Jumptheshark

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Are they a top 3 band of all time? I would say yes. Can't think of many bands who could rival a string of albums like Unknown Pleasures, Closer, Power Corruption Lies, Low Life, and Technique + all of the classic singles on Substance (both bands) + Ceremony (a top five pop song of all time imo)



For their style of music, yeah they in the top 5... but for music overall? No they are not top ten
 

Shareefruck

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I personally strongly prefer The Velvet Ubderground to The Beatles, but I think The Beatles pretty obviously are better at short classic pop songs. YMMV for how important that is to you, but The Beatles have dozens of them while The Velvet Underground barely even attempted any. Their most pop album is Loaded, and that seems to be the fourth favorite album for most VU fans I’ve spoken to.
Agreed. There are definitely certain things that The Beatles do better than VU (sentimentality/warmth and attention to production/polish being the most obvious for me). I don't know how it can be argued that VU does absolutely everything better.
 
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