If you combine the output of Joy Division / New Order...

Fiji Water

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Jan 16, 2004
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Are they a top 3 band of all time? I would say yes. Can't think of many bands who could rival a string of albums like Unknown Pleasures, Closer, Power Corruption Lies, Low Life, and Technique + all of the classic singles on Substance (both bands) + Ceremony (a top five pop song of all time imo)
 

kihei

McEnroe: The older I get, the better I used to be.
Jun 14, 2006
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Top ten, sure; top three, no. JD/NO would have a great discography but not one to match, for starters, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin. Besides you could do this number with a lot of bands: where would you rate a combined Velvet Underground/Lou Reed, for instance?
 

Acadmus

pastured mod
Jul 22, 2003
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I like New Order, but they're not even in the picture when I think top 10 discographies...it's a very subjective thing. I don't think they even make top-10 if you average out people's opinions, to be honest - they aren't a band I see very often in the top end of "best of" lists, or "greatest album of all time" lists.
 

Spring in Fialta

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Top ten, sure; top three, no. JD/NO would have a great discography but not one to match, for starters, The Beatles, The Rolling Stones or Led Zeppelin. Besides you could do this number with a lot of bands: where would you rate a combined Velvet Underground/Lou Reed, for instance?

I think both JD/NO and VU/LR blow the three band mentioned out of the water. I think Ceremony is one of the greateast songs of all-time (The live at Birmingham Hall version of Ceremony being the peak of JD).
 

Shareefruck

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Neither the Rolling Stones nor Zeppelin have a single album that even comes close to rivaling Closer or Unknown Pleasures, IMO. I have them both in the consistently good-great, but never awe-inspiring category, personally.

It depends a lot on if you value longevity or peak. Either way, I'm not convinced that combining them with New Order makes that big of a difference from just comparing Joy Division to other bands outright anyways, though. If you value longevity, even the two bands combined aren't that prolific compared to other artists, and if you value peak, none of New Order's albums approach Joy Division's best albums, for my money.

Personally, I value peak above all else, and only use longevity/consistency as a tie-breaker. Based on that, I have Joy Division in my top 10 but not in my top 3.

Mine looks like this:
1. Captain Beefheart
2. Velvet Underground
3. Can
4. Brian Eno (if he counts)
5. Soft Machine
6. Bob Dylan (if he counts)
7. The Beatles
8. Joy Division
9. Faust
10. Pink Floyd

The two Joy Division albums rival any two Beatles albums, IMO.
Also, Bernard Sumner's vocals and lyricism really puts me off.
 
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Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
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Neither the Rolling Stones nor Zeppelin have a single album that even comes close to rivaling Closer or Unknown Pleasures, IMO. I have them both in the consistently good-great, but never awe-inspiring category, personally.

It depends a lot on if you value longevity or peak. Either way, I'm not convinced that combining them with New Order makes that big of a difference from just comparing Joy Division to other bands outright anyways, though. If you value longevity, even the two bands combined aren't that prolific compared to other artists, and if you value peak, none of New Order's albums approach Joy Division's best albums, for my money.

Personally, I value peak above all else, and only use longevity/consistency as a tie-breaker. Based on that, I have Joy Division in my top 10 but not in my top 3.

Mine looks like this:
1. Captain Beefheart
2. Velvet Underground
3. Can
4. Brian Eno (if he counts)
5. Soft Machine
6. Bob Dylan (if he counts)
7. The Beatles
8. Joy Division
9. Faust
10. Pink Floyd

The two Joy Division albums rival any two Beatles albums, IMO.
Also, Bernard Sumner's vocals and lyricism really puts me off.

I think Power, Corruption & Lies is up there with Joy Division's output and Leave Me Alone - the closing track on the album - is up there with Ceremony. The atmospheric and melodious guitar work is sublime, as if gliding on a sweet dream.
 

Shareefruck

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I think Power, Corruption & Lies is up there with Joy Division's output and Leave Me Alone - the closing track on the album - is up there with Ceremony. The atmospheric and melodious guitar work is sublime, as if gliding on a sweet dream.
I like their instrumentals (not more than Joy Division's mind you), and I think Power, Corruption, and Lies is a good album, but Sumner's singing has always just sounded like bad karaoke to my ears.

Ceremony's actually the song the got me into music in the first place. Think it was the Radiohead Scotch Mist version that started everything for me. One of the biggest shames in rock music for me is that it was never properly recorded by Joy Division.
 

Spring in Fialta

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I like their instrumentals (not more than Joy Division's mind you), and I think Power, Corruption, and Lies is a good album, but Sumner's singing has always just sounded like bad karaoke to my ears.

Ceremony's actually the song the got me into music in the first place. Think it was the Radiohead Scotch Mist version that started everything for me. One of the biggest shames in rock music for me is that it was never properly recorded by Joy Division.

Yup. Although, that performance at Birmingham University where Ian Curtis's voice is barely tangible and the sound gets fixed at the exact time that he starts belting out '' Oh, I'll break them down...'' is the perfect accident.
 

Shareefruck

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Yup. Although, that performance at Birmingham University where Ian Curtis's voice is barely tangible and the sound gets fixed at the exact time that he starts belting out '' Oh, I'll break them down...'' is the perfect accident.
Oh my god, YES. That's my favorite version of it.

 

Spring in Fialta

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I think it'd also be interesting how much stronger Joy Divisions albums would be considering if quite a few of their singles wete actually on the albums. Stand-out tracks like Atmosphere, Digital, Transmission and Ceremony are all standalone singles.
 

Ceremony

blahem
Jun 8, 2012
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Digital is bad and none of those songs would sit anywhere on an album. Movement wouldn't have been better if Temptation and Everything's Gone Green were on it, everything else would have been overshadowed and the album would have been worse as a result.
 

Shareefruck

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Digital is bad and none of those songs would sit anywhere on an album. Movement wouldn't have been better if Temptation and Everything's Gone Green were on it, everything else would have been overshadowed and the album would have been worse as a result.
He didn't say anything about Temptation and Everything's Gone Green. :huh:

I like Digital, but I like pretty much all the songs on Unknown Pleasures more (Candidate, Wilderness, and I Remember Nothing are superior songs, IMO). I think Transmission could potentially fit in and improve Unknown Pleasures (could easily imagine it being re-worked the way that She's Lost Control was), but Atmosphere and Ceremony are colossal mismatches with the tone of Closer, IMO. They're way more sentimental and way less bleak.
 
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Spring in Fialta

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It's funny, but I've never been one to care about the tone of an album, personally. While I understand and respect the thought behind it, I've always taken every song on an album as an individual experience and never as a whole. For example, the opening and closing tracks on Power, Corruption & Lies (Age of Consent and Leave Me Alone) aren't in the same genre as the rest of the tracks and I still think they fit perfectly.
 

Ceremony

blahem
Jun 8, 2012
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He didn't say anything about Temptation and Everything's Gone Green. :huh:

I like Digital, but I like pretty much all the songs on Unknown Pleasures more (Candidate, Wilderness, and I Remember Nothing are superior songs, IMO). I think Transmission could potentially fit in and improve Unknown Pleasures (could easily imagine it being re-worked the way that She's Lost Control was), but Atmosphere and Ceremony are colossal mismatches with the tone of Closer, IMO. They're way more sentimental and way less bleak.
I was making the comparison that putting non-album singles on an album isn't necessarily going to make a positive difference. And while nobody's arguing that it is I don't see what difference it should make to a band's critical reception - they still made the song, their overall output shouldn't be considered differently because of how the songs were released.
 

Spring in Fialta

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It could change a album's reception without necessarily changing the band's critical reception. As you said, the band still made those songs, but an individual album could still rated more strongly if a particular single was on the album.
 

Shareefruck

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It's funny, but I've never been one to care about the tone of an album, personally. While I understand and respect the thought behind it, I've always taken every song on an album as an individual experience and never as a whole. For example, the opening and closing tracks on Power, Corruption & Lies (Age of Consent and Leave Me Alone) aren't in the same genre as the rest of the tracks and I still think they fit perfectly.
It could change a album's reception without necessarily changing the band's critical reception. As you said, the band still made those songs, but an individual album could still rated more strongly if a particular single was on the album.
I was making the comparison that putting non-album singles on an album isn't necessarily going to make a positive difference. And while nobody's arguing that it is I don't see what difference it should make to a band's critical reception - they still made the song, their overall output shouldn't be considered differently because of how the songs were released.
Err, forgive the long post, but man, I completely disagree. I think they SHOULD be considered differently because of that, personally. For me, how good an album is sort of adds a noticable greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts bonus to how good the artist is. It's just another additional quality/creative decision to assess that makes the artist more complete and rewarding when satisfied, IMO. In a weird way, I would also say that when songs are a part of a great cohesive album that stands on its own as a singular thing, it also makes every single track on that album notably better than it otherwise would be (for some reason). I even find myself preferring (supposedly) lesser tracks on great albums over stronger tracks on lesser albums a lot of the time, because the context of it being a part of a greater whole can add so much to it. (I find myself more satisfied listening to 'Lady Godiva's Operation' than I do 'Rock and Roll' or 'Sweet Jane', for example, because I'm entranced by everything about White Light White Heat)

I'd definitely have a higher opinion of New Order if they had another great album to their name, even without adding anything to their catalogue of songs.

On a similar note that I can relate more to than with New Order, I've had a nagging thing that kept me from putting The Beatles on the untouchable pedestal that I want to, almost entirely due to the fact that I feel that most of their great albums are only near-perfect creations that unfortunately usually have at least one or two glaring holes in their track selection (Octopus' Garden, Maxwell Silver's Hammer, When I'm 64, and What Goes On, for example). Even though they have dozens of great songs (usually released at the same time) outside of these albums that, on quantity, should easily be able to make up for it. In practice, if you could somehow shove the singles they had during those periods into the glaring holes in a way that fit the albums perfectly, I'd be hard-pressed not to consider them my favorite band. But I don't, because those holes are still there (according to me).

In the same vein, there are tons of tracks on The Beatles' self titled white album that I wouldn't have thought are that amazing by themselves, but that I actually end up loving because of how well they work and how inspired they feel on that album.

That's also the reason why I struggle to put undeniably great and massively influential artists from the 40s and 50s (before albums were much of a thing) on that same pedestal. The only way they can compete, for me, is through the strength of their live albums, personally.

I don't know the science behind it, and it's not as simple as matching the tone up alone (Love Will Tear Us Apart is REALLY out of left field compared to the rest of Closer, though), but I definitely think its impact is significant.
 
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Spring in Fialta

A malign star kept him
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Err, forgive the long post, but man, I completely disagree. I think they SHOULD be considered differently because of that, personally. For me, how good an album is sort of adds a noticable greater-than-the-sum-of-its-parts bonus to how good the artist is. It's just another additional quality/creative decision to assess that makes the artist more complete and rewarding when satisfied, IMO. In a weird way, I would also say that when songs are a part of a great cohesive album that stands on its own as a singular thing, it also makes every single track on that album notably better than it otherwise would be (for some reason). I even find myself preferring (supposedly) lesser tracks on great albums over stronger tracks on lesser albums a lot of the time, because the context of it being a part of a greater whole can add so much to it. (I find myself more satisfied listening to 'Lady Godiva's Operation' than I do 'Rock and Roll' or 'Sweet Jane', for example, because I'm entranced by everything about White Light White Heat)

I'd definitely have a higher opinion of New Order if they had another great album to their name, even without adding anything to their catalogue of songs.

On a similar note that I can relate more to than with New Order, I've had a nagging thing that kept me from putting The Beatles on the untouchable pedestal that I want to, almost entirely due to the fact that I feel that most of their great albums are only near-perfect creations that unfortunately usually have at least one or two glaring holes in their track selection (Octopus' Garden, Maxwell Silver's Hammer, When I'm 64, and What Goes On, for example). Even though they have dozens of great songs (usually released at the same time) outside of these albums that, on quantity, should easily be able to make up for it. In practice, if you could somehow shove the singles they had during those periods into the glaring holes in a way that fit the albums perfectly, I'd be hard-pressed not to consider them my favorite band. But I don't, because those holes are still there (according to me).

In the same vein, there are tons of tracks on The Beatles' self titled white album that I wouldn't have thought are that amazing by themselves, but that I actually end up loving because of how well they work and how inspired they feel on that album.

That's also the reason why I struggle to put undeniably great and massively influential artists from the 40s and 50s (before albums were much of a thing) on that same pedestal. The only way they can compete, for me, is through the strength of their live albums, personally.

I don't know the science behind it, and it's not as simple as matching the tone up alone (Love Will Tear Us Apart is REALLY out of left field compared to the rest of Closer, though), but I definitely think its impact is significant.

I think a lot of this sentiment comes down towards how you consume your art. Throughout my life, I've often consumed music through individual songs and have only recently started to listening to albums from the opening track to the last - and this is solely due to moving in with my girlfriend who owns Vinyl record player and which has pushed me to start buying vinyl records and due to the format I don't have much of a choice but to listen to albums all the way through - and while I understand what you're saying, I can't agree with it. I've been used to listening to songs out of order or as a one-offs in a playlist so I don't have much experience with your way of looking at it. How and where the art was released if of no importance to me, only that it's there, and that point of view if without a doubt shaped by how I've consumed music throughout my life. And frankly, liking a song more than other as an individual track simply because it's on a particular album - like the Lady Godiva's Operation example you gave - is a perspective I struggle to understand. Do you always listen to music through a complete album? If you'd make a playlist, would you place LGO over Sweet Jane despite seemingly appreciating the latter more, despite the fact that it's part of a lesser whole in Loaded?

But I'm curious, considering how important it is for you that songs match with one another and that you do seem to consider tone how a lot, how can you rate The Velvet Underground & Nico so highly considering it's a complete mishmash of songs completely different in tone?
 

Shareefruck

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I think a lot of this sentiment comes down towards how you consume your art. Throughout my life, I've often consumed music through individual songs and have only recently started to listening to albums from the opening track to the last - and this is solely due to moving in with my girlfriend who owns Vinyl record player and which has pushed me to start buying vinyl records and due to the format I don't have much of a choice but to listen to albums all the way through - and while I understand what you're saying, I can't agree with it. I've been used to listening to songs out of order or as a one-offs in a playlist so I don't have much experience with your way of looking at it. How and where the art was released if of no importance to me, only that it's there, and that point of view if without a doubt shaped by how I've consumed music throughout my life. And frankly, liking a song more than other as an individual track simply because it's on a particular album - like the Lady Godiva's Operation example you gave - is a perspective I struggle to understand. Do you always listen to music through a complete album? If you'd make a playlist, would you place LGO over Sweet Jane despite seemingly appreciating the latter more, despite the fact that it's part of a lesser whole in Loaded?

But I'm curious, considering how important it is for you that songs match with one another and that you do seem to consider tone how a lot, how can you rate The Velvet Underground & Nico so highly considering it's a complete mishmash of songs completely different in tone?
I'm not trying to imply that things with different tones can never work well together. But there are things with different tones that seem like they would complement each other and things that don't. I love the contrast between "Peon"/"One Red Rose That I Mean" and the rest of the album, despite being a polar opposite shift in tone, for example.

I used to exclusively listen to individual songs, but as I slowly started to warm up to certain albums, every individual piece seemed to disproportionately grow in satisfaction with it, to a degree where songs that don't go through that process end up at a disadvantage. That's basically what I mean.

It's not absolute, there's still a sort of a tug of war between cohesiveness and song-by-song-greatness when I'm looking at how much I like an album, but most of the time, I'd rather flip around listening to parts or wholes of entire albums instead of on shuffle, because it sounds better that way.

Regarding The Velvet Underground and Nico, it's partly because song-by-song it's just SO ridiculously dominant (probably half the songs are among my absolute favorites), and partly because I keep flip-flopping about whether or not it actually does feel disjointed/mismatched. I'll Be Your Mirror dampens my enthusiasm towards it-- I don't know if it's because of a shift in tone or just because it's weaker than the other songs. Without that, it would probably be in contention for my #1. It is hurting my impression of the album, just not enough to keep it off of my top whatever.

It's kind of like how an acting performance becomes disproportionately more memorable and worthwhile when it's also part of a great film. Something gets lost without that aspect of it in place, IMO.
 
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