If Samuelson did not Knee on knee Neely...

[J0e Th0rnton*]

Would Pittsburgh have beaten boston in the playoffs in 91?

An admin said I could remake this poll if I omitted the inappropriate poll options I left in the last one, so here goes.
The last poll was left at 17 votes for boston winning, 7 for the pens still winning, and 5 for undecided.

Now ill give my point of view.

Cam Neely had 5 goals 1 assist in 2 games vs Pittsburgh in the 90/91 playoffs. Boston was up 2 games to none while he was in the lineup. In game 3, Ulf Samuelson was persuaded to take out Cam Neely, which is widely known. This turned the tide by removing Boston's biggest physical presence and top scorer, who was scoring around a goal a game. Pittsburgh came back 4 games in a row to go on to the finals.

Either team would have easily beaten the Minnesota North Stars like the Pens did then, so really, this was a cup deciding injury.

Its up to you, the fans, to vote

a nice quote from before.

The entire complexion of that series the moment Neely was hurt. Boston was a completely different team.

Neely played the best hockey of his life in the 1991 playoffs (including the 50-50 season in 1993-94), and his play in those playoffs is likely as close to textbook as you'll ever see from a power forward. Nobody could legally stop him in those playoffs. He scored 16 goals that year, and he didn't even reach the Stanley Cup final.

Neely finished the series, but was nowhere the same player.

BTW, I hate Samuelsson, but if I needed a defensive defenceman circa about 1989-1995, Samuelsson would be near the top of my list.

also, a quote for those who say it was not intentional or dirty.

Almost every player asked about it agrees it was intentional, on any team but the pens.

http://espn.go.com/page2/s/list/read...t/players.html


Ulf was known for intentionally doing such things his entire career. He was warned several times for Knee on knees, more than Marchment by far and suspended a few times for it. his intentional high sticks are also legendary. He ended another players career with a high stick to the eye(Can't remember hsi name now)

Also, Samuelson was trying to poke the puck was secondary. He skated full speed(Charging extra strides full speed) and didn't even attempt to change direction to follow the puck.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pd8cDxL_5IE
He didn't turn to go for the puck at all, he went straight at his knee and was braced himself for the knee contact.

He has even admitted(Much like Clarke on Kharlamov) that he was given a mission by Bob Johnson.

Why do you think when players around the league were asked about Ti Domi's Cheapshot on Samuelson, most of them responded that they don;t agree with cheapshots, but i'd give domi a raise?

Click to read more...

 

[J0e Th0rnton*]

So far, 2 more votes in each category. Adding it up from the other poll, that's 19 in favor of boston winning, 9 for the Pens, and 5 undecided

 

[Habs 4 Life]

Pens would have won anyways IMO

 

[J0e Th0rnton*]

Pens would have won anyways IMO

Can you give reasons for this?

I can Honestly say when Cam was in the lineup, it was a diffrent team. And he had more goals than Lemieux had points in the series before being taken out.

Milbury is partially to blame because instead of playing hockey, he brought in 3 goons and decided to play "Get even, get rough" and the team lost focus.

At the pace Cam was scoring.........he was unstoppable with regular play. Only a dirty hit could take the guy down.

 

[mytor4*]

Can you give reasons for this?

I can Honestly say when Cam was in the lineup, it was a diffrent team. And he had more goals than Lemieux had points in the series before being taken out.

Milbury is partially to blame because instead of playing hockey, he brought in 3 goons and decided to play "Get even, get rough" and the team lost focus.

At the pace Cam was scoring.........he was unstoppable with regular play. Only a dirty hit could take the guy down.

too bad it wasn't a dirty hit . try watching the replay with your eyes .

 

[acr*]

I think Boston would've won the series had the hit not taken place, and it's not all about Neely's offense.

Mike Milbury completely wigged out looking for blood and revenge instead of winning hockey, scratching his 3rd/4th line skill players for goons like Byers, Pedersen, Markwart, etc.

Pittsburgh just kept on playing their hockey and outscored Milbury's band of enforcers.

The B's were up two game to none at the time of the hit, went on to lose that 3rd game in the last period I believe. Neely's precense on offense and some of the skill plyers instead of goons would've made a substantial difference. Bruins win in 7.

 

[brownman*]

'91 Penguins > '91 Bruins

 

[Wisent]

I don`t want to insinuate and it is also a little off topic but I just have to say t his. This knee looked more like an accident like anything else. They both skate towards each other both don`t move their legs (so actually it is just a matter of luck who knees who). This particular play didn`t seem intentional to me (and I know that Samuelsson was abrasive and nasty).

Back on topic: it is impossible to tell who would have won this series.

 

[Big Phil]

I voted for the Pens. Its hard to say really. Go back to '93 in the Wings/Leafs series. In the first 2 games Yzerman had 5 points. The Wings were up 2-0. After that in the last 5 games he had two points and the Wings lost in 7. My point is that as a series progresses the stakes are higher. Yzerman looked unstoppable too. But the Wings still lost because he didnt come through after Game 2. I think there's few people who would put Neely as a better playoff performer than Yzerman. I wouldnt.

Either way Mario was on a mission. He had the best playoff year possibly in history. I have a hard time believing that he wouldnt have stepped it up either way and outplayed Neely. If you think Neely was unstoppable - and he was - than what do you think of Mario? Could the Bruins have stopped him? Would he have not scored just because Neely was in the lineup? No. Just to prove it wasnt a fluke the Pens won the Cup in '92 as well. Just to let you know they beat the top 2 point getting teams in the league en route to the Cup. Then they swept the Bruins (sans Neely). Mario was on a mission either way. Sometimes on these boards Neely gets sentimental treatment on here and people dont look past his popularity. I liked him but I'm also rational.

By the way:

'91 Mario >>>>>>>>>>>> '91 Neely........8 days a week, sorry Bruins fans.

 

[GuloGulo]

I don`t want to insinuate and it is also a little off topic but I just have to say t his. This knee looked more like an accident like anything else. They both skate towards each other both don`t move their legs (so actually it is just a matter of luck who knees who). This particular play didn`t seem intentional to me (and I know that Samuelsson was abrasive and nasty).

Back on topic: it is impossible to tell who would have won this series.

He's never admitted himself that THAT particular hit was an intentional knee on knee.
This is what he said to Aftonbladet a few years after the incident:

"The coach had ordered me to confront him, in his lane, on every shift. It was an immediate collision course. Neely went straight ahead and me likewise. Went on like that during the entire game. Eventually it was (like) two trains steaming towards each other with neither turning an inch. I knew something would break in either of us, be broken, before it was over."

 

[Wisent]

He's never admitted himself that THAT particular hit was an intentional knee on knee.
This is what he said to Aftonbladet a few years after the incident:

"The coach had ordered me to confront him, in his lane, on every shift. It was an immediate collision course. Neely went straight ahead and me likewise. Went on like that during the entire game. Eventually it was (like) two trains steaming towards each other with neither turning an inch. I knew something would break in either of us, be broken, before it was over."

True, this sounds exactly what it looked like. Neither giving an inch, just a matter of bad luck who breaks something first.

 

[RSBPC]

too bad it wasn't a dirty hit . try watching the replay with your eyes .

I don`t want to insinuate and it is also a little off topic but I just have to say t his. This knee looked more like an accident like anything else. They both skate towards each other both don`t move their legs (so actually it is just a matter of luck who knees who). This particular play didn`t seem intentional to me (and I know that Samuelsson was abrasive and nasty).

Back on topic: it is impossible to tell who would have won this series.

You guys are out of you mind. Watch this clip (props to 'canucksfan' for linking to it in the last Neely thread) and tell me it was an accident, or a clean hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tQsE3BIcKo

He did the same thing to multiple players. I don't see how you can say intent wasn't there. As for whether or not the hit (or hits) are legal or not:

Rule 71 from the NHL rulebook, word for word:

Kneeing is the act of a player leading with his knee and in some cases extending his leg outwards to make contact with his opponent.

A minor, major or match penalty shall be imposed on any player who fouls an opponent by kneeing.

When a player has been assessed a major penalty for kneeing he shall also be assessed a Game Misconduct.

I don't see how anyone can honestly say that it was an unitentional and/or clean hit.

 

[Wisent]

You guys are out of you mind. Watch this clip (props to 'canucksfan' for linking to it in the last Neely thread) and tell me it was an accident, or a clean hit.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5tQsE3BIcKo

He did the same thing to multiple players. I don't see how you can say intent wasn't there. As for whether or not the hit (or hits) are legal or not:

Rule 71 from the NHL rulebook, word for word:




I don't see how anyone can honestly say that it was an unitentional and/or clean hit.

Well, if it is intentional there is no question for me. It is a foul. I was just questioning the intention. Seeing the other videos it makes me kind of doubt that. For me, to make kneeing sure, there had always to be the leg extension motion. You can`t see it in this clip so this made it doubtful for me. But I got to admit, he seemed to have a knack for making it look like accident (or perhaps it just was?).
Admitted, after seeing these clips it seems fishy.

 

[Crazyhorse]

It wasn't a clean hit, but it wasn't intentional.

And no, Pittsburgh would still have won. The Pens offence was simply to strong.

 

[J0e Th0rnton*]

The clip shows clear intent. Notice also when Ulf collides knee to knee, he is always braced for it so he never gets hurt, but he always took out the guy he was after.

His intentional high stick on Morrou, destroying his vision in one eye and ruining his career, is also legendary.

Boston offense was stronger than Pittsburgh offense with Neely in the lineup. Neely had more goals than Lemieux had points in the series at the time. He was as much of a clutch player as Lemieux, just not as good as Lemieux.

 

[RSBPC]

It wasn't a clean hit, but it wasn't intentional.

And no, Pittsburgh would still have won. The Pens offence was simply to strong.

Was every knee to knee collision he was involved in unintentional? Or just the one with Neely?

The evidence is pretty daming, IMO. I really don't see how you can conclude that it was an accident.

 

[Nalyd Psycho]

Samuelson's good. Marchment was always much more obvious. But, if you watch carefully you see two things. 1. Samuelson made no attempt to properly check Neely. 2. he made no attempt to get out of the way.

 

[Big Phil]

Neely had more goals than Lemieux had points in the series at the time. He was as much of a clutch player as Lemieux, just not as good as Lemieux.

After two games? That's how you determine a clutch player? All-time Neely isnt even close to Mario in terms of a playoff performer. Neely had two great playoff years and one ('88) that was good. In Lemieux's two Cup winning playoffs he has 78 points. Neely has 89 CAREER playoff points. Apples and Oranges. Then there's other years that he didnt win the Cup but was still great in the playoffs. In '89 he had his 5 goal game. In '96 he had 27 points and even in '01 he scored probably a biger clutch goal than Neely ever did (game 6 vs. Buffalo tying goal with 1 minute left). So you mean to tell me that Lemieux's two Cups, two Conn Smythe's and 172 career playoff points are just on par with Neely's 89 points in 93 career playoff games? Come on.

 

[J0e Th0rnton*]

After two games? That's how you determine a clutch player? All-time Neely isnt even close to Mario in terms of a playoff performer. Neely had two great playoff years and one ('88) that was good. In Lemieux's two Cup winning playoffs he has 78 points. Neely has 89 CAREER playoff points. Apples and Oranges. Then there's other years that he didnt win the Cup but was still great in the playoffs. In '89 he had his 5 goal game. In '96 he had 27 points and even in '01 he scored probably a biger clutch goal than Neely ever did (game 6 vs. Buffalo tying goal with 1 minute left). So you mean to tell me that Lemieux's two Cups, two Conn Smythe's and 172 career playoff points are just on par with Neely's 89 points in 93 career playoff games? Come on.

No, im saying that Neely was scoring 5 goals and one assist in 2 games, so Ulf took him out intentionally. Him being in the series would have evened the playing field. Not to mention Boston's Milbury was an idiot and got 3 goons for the rest of the series to play "Get even" instead of hockey.

With Neely in the lineup, the bruins were a different team. Nobody is saying he is better than Lemieux. We are saying Boston would have won with his clutch, super presence in the lineup.

 

[devildan]

Can you give reasons for this?

I can Honestly say when Cam was in the lineup, it was a diffrent team. And he had more goals than Lemieux had points in the series before being taken out.

Milbury is partially to blame because instead of playing hockey, he brought in 3 goons and decided to play "Get even, get rough" and the team lost focus.

At the pace Cam was scoring.........he was unstoppable with regular play. Only a dirty hit could take the guy down.

Seems like you have your answer already. If you want to make a poll, step back and let the people vote ... dont try to influence them.

 

[HandshakeLine]

Sounds like someone just can't let it go. I'm a pretty big Neely fan, but there's no way the Bruins win that series, even with him in the lineup.

And for crying out loud, isn't this your 4th thread about Neely-Samuelsson in 24 hours?

 

[J0e Th0rnton*]

Sounds like someone just can't let it go. I'm a pretty big Neely fan, but there's no way the Bruins win that series, even with him in the lineup.

And for crying out loud, isn't this your 4th thread about Neely-Samuelsson in 24 hours?

Yet they smoked the pens in the first 2 games, and at the beginning of game 3, cam goes out, and the pens make their comeback? Explain how boston was going to suddenly fold being up 2 games with their top player still playing the best hockey of any player in the series?

 

[jiggs 10]

The Pens would have won the series anyway. The fact that the Bruins won 2 games doesn't make that much difference to me. The Stars won against the Pens in the Final, but does that mean it was a close series? No, it doesn't and it wasn't. Much as it pains me to say it, Mario was multiple times the player Cam Neely ever was, and especially in the playoffs.

BTW, I dislike BOTH players a lot!

 

[HandshakeLine]

Yet they smoked the pens in the first 2 games, and at the beginning of game 3, cam goes out, and the pens make their comeback? Explain how boston was going to suddenly fold being up 2 games with their top player still playing the best hockey of any player in the series?

Apparently they only play 3 game series in Nova Scotia.

Pittsburgh was loaded during the cup runs. Their defense might have been average at best, but they were clutch and dangerous. Explain to me how the Pens roll over and die after two games, when they fought a very gritty Jersey team to 7 games earlier in the playoffs?

Plus, as was already pointed out, Lemieux was money in the playoffs, so much more than Neely that it doesn't even matter. Furthermore, if you lost Lemieux (as they had for most of the regular season) the Pens would still find ways to win, with Stevens, Francis, Recchi, Coffey, and so on. Are you trying to argue that Boston was a one player team?

 

[reckoning]

I think Boston would've won the series had the hit not taken place, and it's not all about Neely's offense.

Mike Milbury completely wigged out looking for blood and revenge instead of winning hockey, scratching his 3rd/4th line skill players for goons like Byers, Pedersen, Markwart, etc.

Exactly. Horrible coaching by Milbury. If he wanted payback, he should've kept the receipt for a regular season game the next year. His coaching mistake hurt the Bruins more than losing Neely.

Would Pittsburgh have still won? Who knows...we can play the "what if" game but it doesn't change anything. Though if Boston had won the Cup, Ray Bourque's detractors would lose their favourite argument against him.