If Monahan, Bennett, and Tkachuk were taken, who would we have picked?

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Screw the rules.

I have green hair .

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Dack, I have to agree with MM (ew)

Wennberg needs to show more consistency to pass monahan. Further, Barkov is oft injured. He might have more skill than monahan but so far monahan has had more of a net impact on this team. One stat we often over look when talking monahan are his GWG. This guy wins us games.
Jones I can see an argument for, but again not until last year. I think that it is arguable Monahan is the best player out of the draft, so far.

Barkov might be injured, but even including injury his impact on his team is far superior than Monahans. Imagine without. Yes I get the what ifs, but in this scenario, Barkov's impact even when injured is already better...

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

He'd trade that Tkachuk pick for Aberg and Ekholm

Not kidding you, prior to Tkachuk being picked I proposed that on FB and some fans were alright with it lol. Well Preds fans at least, Flames fans roasted me alive.

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Monahan is not the best player from that draft the highest you could place him in my opinion is 3.

I'd have it like this.

Jones/Barkov
Wennberg (I kind of thought last season was a one off but he reminds me of Backstrom lite)
Mackinnon /Monahan
Horvat (He's catching up he's been consistently improving)
Guentzel(Also thought he was a product of Crosby which he partially is but he's a really good player).
Domi
Drouin
Risto


Monahan had been good and was clearly the correct pick where he was drafted. Horvat or Wennberg are both complete hindsight Horvat was supposed to go in the 10-12 range and Wennberg goes from 10-14 in mock drafts. Kind of funny how this was "the deepest draft in years" because honestly it's trash.

Long side note:
I started remembering the 2014 draft better the Panthers were talking with the Canucks who were trying to move up to first in order to take Reinhart. The sense was although they thought he was BPA Florida wasn't in love with Ekblad but as we know they ended up choosing him anyways and had he fallen he wouldn't have gotten past Edmonton. Buffalo was the X Factor because they were the ones that had their choice of the 3 Cs. The debate was mostly which Sam they should choose it didn't seem like Draisaitl got a tonne of interest from them. Edmonton favoured Draisaitl from the start I think pretty much every mock draft had them taking him and their in house guys reported as such. So we would've taken Reinhart.

The top 4 that year was super interesting too me it was the first year I actually followed the draft and each of these guys was unique and exciting. These are just the prevailing opinions I read on this board at the time but it was like this

Ekblad: NHL ready Manchild who could play next season, his upside as a number 1 dman was seriously questioned. He was also overscouted due to being in the OHL so long.

Reinhart: Einstein on skates I believe was what Brian Burke called him. He had a two way game and was so smart, he wasn't a good skater but the thought was he'd overcome it and was a safe bet to be at least a 2C. I can't remember who he was compared to but I want to say Adam Oates; Toews was also thrown around but that's said about every Canadian kid with a semblance of a two way game.

Draisaitl: The least heralded of the 4 Burke said on the radio pre draft "I like the German kid" he was big and could pass and protect the puck and he was smart but his skating on draft day was a legitimate mess. There was a serious feeling that the Oilers took size over skill with this pick. Obviously it didn't turn out that way but I'm not making it up some Oilers posters were irate. He was compared to a lesser Thornton.

Bennett: He was ranked as high as one for a reason dynamic was the best word to describe him. A lot of HFboards believed he had the highest upside in the draft. I remember reading some people saying with Bennett you're likely getting a great player but the question is how does his body hold up playing his style when he's 25? 30? This is why you always hear that Gilmour comparison.

I wanted Reinhart at the time but truthfully my main reason was that we already had Max lined up as our future 3C and I wanted the new Staals. He was also the only one I had seen in person because he played in the WHL forever.

On Bennett I think he was rushed completely obviously picks don't always turn out but Bennett's downside was still supposed to be better than he is now. He really wasn't NHL ready and never would've played in the NHL had we not gone on our shooting percentage driven run in 2014-2015 and made the playoffs. We were supposed to be a bottom feeder that year and our shooting percentage being sky high and acceptable goaltending brought a poor team to the playoffs

Lindholm's better than Domi.

 

[Flameshomer]

Barkov might be injured, but even including injury his impact on his team is far superior than Monahans. Imagine without. Yes I get the what ifs, but in this scenario, Barkov's impact even when injured is already better...

Florida record since Barkov joining team: 328 GP 149 W 136 L 43 OTL
Flames record since Monahan joined the team: 328 GP 160 W 143 L 25 OTL
Monahan GWG: 22
Barkov GWG: 17

In-spite of being in almost double the amount of sudden death situations (where Monahan excels), Barkov has 25% less gwg goals than Money since draft. The team has preformed better than florida since both were drafted.
I realize this isn't apples to apples, but as money has JH, Barkov has huberdeau,

 

[Bjornar Moxnes]

Florida record since Barkov joining team: 328 GP 149 W 136 L 43 OTL
Flames record since Monahan joined the team: 328 GP 160 W 143 L 25 OTL
Monahan GWG: 22
Barkov GWG: 17

In-spite of being in almost double the amount of sudden death situations (where Monahan excels), Barkov has 25% less gwg goals than Money since draft. The team has preformed better than florida since both were drafted.
I realize this isn't apples to apples, but as money has JH, Barkov has huberdeau,

Check Florida's record before Barkov. Also Barkov's impact on and off the ice is insane. Monahan's is a liability generally speaking, meaning it's more so the Flames improved substantially than Monahan impacting. Lastly, Huberdeau is nowhere near Gaudreau.

 

[Dack]

Dack, I have to agree with MM (ew)

Wennberg needs to show more consistency to pass monahan. Further, Barkov is oft injured. He might have more skill than monahan but so far monahan has had more of a net impact on this team. One stat we often over look when talking monahan are his GWG. This guy wins us games.
Jones I can see an argument for, but again not until last year. I think that it is arguable Monahan is the best player out of the draft, so far.

Wennberg is a personal opinion that I expected to get shit over, doesn't really matter main point was that the highest argument I see for Monahan is 3rd.

Jones has been an amazing D man since being traded from Nashville he does everything you want he's good defensively and brings a good amount of offence. Top 2 D man with potential > 2C with potential.

Barkov is just flat out better than Monahan at this point if both players were to continue to play at the level they've shown thus far and Barkov only played 65 games a year. He's a little better offensively and his two way game has been steadily improving since he entered the league.

Lindholm's better than Domi.

Hard no for me Linholm should at least outpace him in a season before being called better seeing as they're both wingers. Lindholm plays on Staals line correct? He likely faces tougher matchups but Domi has spent his career on a pathetic Arizona team that was lead in scoring by Vrbata last season. I think he is a first line player (a lower end one but still) on a half decent team. I have similar thoughts on Nate Mack.

 

[Flameshomer]

Check Florida's record before Barkov. Also Barkov's impact on and off the ice is insane. Monahan's is a liability generally speaking, meaning it's more so the Flames improved substantially than Monahan impacting. Lastly, Huberdeau is nowhere near Gaudreau.

Our record before Monahan was equally abysmal. I'm unwilling to believe that our team has improved significantly outside of him and JH. Maybe Backlund has progressed, and now we have Tkachuk too in the last season, but gio is arguably a bit worse than he was, brodie in spite of spurts doesn't seem to be on the same level, and hamilton plays like j-bouw more often than we'd like to say.

Monahan gets a completely undue amount of hate around here. He's certainly no liability.

 

[Flameshomer]

Wennberg is a personal opinion that I expected to get **** over, doesn't really matter main point was that the highest argument I see for Monahan is 3rd.

Jones has been an amazing D man since being traded from Nashville he does everything you want he's good defensively and brings a good amount of offence. Top 2 D man with potential > 2C with potential.

Barkov is just flat out better than Monahan at this point if both players were to continue to play at the level they've shown thus far and Barkov only played 65 games a year. He's a little better offensively and his two way game has been steadily improving since he entered the league.




Hard no for me Linholm should at least outpace him in a season before being called better seeing as they're both wingers. Lindholm plays on Staals line correct? He likely faces tougher matchups but Domi has spent his career on a pathetic Phoenix team that was lead in scoring by Vrbata last season. I think he is a first line player (a lower end one but still) on a half decent team. I have similar thoughts on Mate Mack.

But Monahan isn't that. Monahan is a #1 C with potential to be an elite #1 c.

 

[Baxterman]

I know there are a ton of things that fan overrate but Barkov's "two-way" game has to be right up there with the top of them.

Florida is welcome to keep him and keep missing the play-offs with him leading their mediocre play.

 

[Baxterman]

Monahan gets a completely undue amount of hate around here. He's certainly no liability.

The Monahan hate on here is unbelievable. I gave a shot to CP for their homers but maybe I would take that over the absolute hate some so-called fans have for one of (likely the) best players.

 

[Dack]

But Monahan isn't that. Monahan is a #1 C with potential to be an elite #1 c.

I have about 15 1Cs in the league right now. Monahan isn't one of them that's where the disagreement is happening. I also don't see the elite potential, I thought he played better than most people thought he did last season but I'm still not seeing the elite potential.

I don't hate him, I don't think he's a bad player I just don't think he's that good. I think he's an offensive 2C.

Finally two years ago I would be agreed about how overrated Barkov was and his defensive game but god has he ever taken steps forward.

 

[Baxterman]

I have about 15 1Cs in the league right now. Monahan isn't one of them that's where the disagreement is happening. I also don't see the elite potential, I thought he played better than most people thought he did last season but I'm still not seeing the elite potential.

I don't hate him, I don't think he's a bad player I just don't think he's that good. I think he's an offensive 2C.

I don't really agree with your assessment but fair enough we will go with I can't see how Jones is a top 2 defenseman in that group as I can see how he is top 30 maybe not even top 50.

As for the only 15 1C in the league argument then we are pretty much f'ed because if there are only that many in the league then it is very doubtful we ever get one and really doubtful we ever get a better C than Monahan over the next 10 years.

 

[Flameshomer]

You're a stats man, Dack. Monahan has the most GWG of any forward since he entered the NHL. Further, he has improved his defensive play and faceoff ability every year. He consistently faces the hardest defensive matchup on the team meaning that other teams consider him the best C on the flames. Finally, he makes johnny better too.

Finally, he's only 23. Jankowski is actually older than him. Why on earth do you believe that he doesn't have room for improvement? What would he reasonably have to do to change your mind on that front?

 

[Dack]

I don't really agree with your assessment but fair enough we will go with I can't see how Jones is a top 2 defenseman in that group as I can see how he is top 30 maybe not even top 50.

As for the only 15 1C in the league argument then we are pretty much f'ed because if there are only that many in the league then it is very doubtful we ever get one and really doubtful we ever get a better C than Monahan over the next 10 years.

What do you mean Jones isn't a top 50 D man? He's done everything well the past two years it's not worth a lot but HFboards voted him 17th when ranking D Men. I wouldn't have him nearly that high but he's in my top 50 for certain. Probably between 25-40.

Backlund last season outperformed Monahan. But other than that I agree I don't really know what you can do to get a 1C outside of getting incredibly lucky in the draft at this point. Or trading for someone with the potential to be that good or Tavares.

 

[Baxterman]

What do you mean Jones isn't a top 50 D man? He's done everything well the past two years it's not worth a lot but HFboards voted him 17th when ranking D Men. I wouldn't have him nearly that high but he's in my top 50 for certain. Probably between 25-40.

Backlund last season outperformed Monahan. But other than that I agree I don't really know what you can do to get a 1C outside of getting incredibly lucky in the draft at this point. Or trading for someone with the potential to be that good or Tavares.

I don't find Jones all that good of a defenseman. I didn't do an actual ranking so top 50 was off the top of my head. I wouldn't take him over our top 3 and would have to think long and hard about him versus Hamonic so I might just be biased because comparing him to our group has him coming out really low but then I would take him over the garbage in Edmonton or Vancouver so tough to say without going in depth rankingwise but I have a hard time seeing him top 30. I hate guys who are so clueless in their own zone like Jones.

Backlund not close to outperforming Monahan. I know fans love Backlund but he wasn't anywhere near Monahan in terms of play last season and is miles behind in terms of actual skill and ability.

 

[Flameshomer]

What do you mean Jones isn't a top 50 D man? He's done everything well the past two years it's not worth a lot but HFboards voted him 17th when ranking D Men. I wouldn't have him nearly that high but he's in my top 50 for certain. Probably between 25-40.

Backlund last season outperformed Monahan. But other than that I agree I don't really know what you can do to get a 1C outside of getting incredibly lucky in the draft at this point. Or trading for someone with the potential to be that good or Tavares.

I have to agree with the Bdog again. Backlund was great last season, but he didn't out preform monahan. If he was noticeably outpreforming monahan, opposing teams would be matching their top d pairs against him instead of the money line. That's not what's happening. So unless you really believe that your analysis is superior to that of 30 NHL front offices, please continue.

 

[Dack]

You're a stats man, Dack. Monahan has the most GWG of any forward since he entered the NHL. Further, he has improved his defensive play and faceoff ability every year. He consistently faces the hardest defensive matchup on the team meaning that other teams consider him the best C on the flames. Finally, he makes johnny better too.

Finally, he's only 23. Jankowski is actually older than him. Why on earth do you believe that he doesn't have room for improvement? What would he reasonably have to do to change your mind on that front?

Get better defensively be more of a threat offensively. He's improved defensively but I still find he doesn't keep up with his man and isn't great at transitioning the puck.

On offense I'd like for him to do something outside of stand in the slot. I know that's where he scores from and I lnow thats the best place to get goals but when teams are sticking with him he's invisible. Even in Gaudreaus worst games I usually notice him get a scoring chance or make a nice pass I can't say the same for Monahan when he's on, he's on but when he's not scoring he's not doing anything else (in terms of offence not physicality and that kind of thing).

I think he actually scores enough to be a 1C if he provided decent defence and was good in the NZ but he really isn't. Maybe he'll improve but I haven't seen it yet. I know a lot of people say his wingers suck at defense but Gaudreau is honestly really good at doing everything a winger needs to do defensively. He gets down low enough to actually bring the puck out of the zone and the breakouts for that line basically always run through him.

 

[Dack]

I have to agree with the Bdog again. Backlund was great last season, but he didn't out preform monahan. If he was noticeably outpreforming monahan, opposing teams would be matching their top d pairs against him instead of the money line. That's not what's happening. So unless you really believe that your analysis is superior to that of 30 NHL front offices, please continue.

Wait seriously? I thought it was unanimous that Backlund was our MVP last season. Last season Monahan had 5 more points while Backlund was our best PKer and our go to shutdown defensive Center. He spent his nights against the top lines of other teams and outside of against Bergeron and Crosby he usually came out on top. I think Backlund was much better than Monahan last season despite Monahan who plays on the 1st PP getting 5 more points. Why do you think otherwise?

 

[Volica]

But Monahan isn't that. Monahan is a #1 C with potential to be an elite #1 c.

Monahan’s Calgary’s 1C. He certainly isn’t a 1C in its truest form. He won’t take over a game, he won’t force teams to match their top lines against him because he’s the nightmare... he’s a guy who can win some face offs and find some quiet ice for Gaudreau to drive the line.

Monahan is a competent scoring centre; who is still learning his two way play. In a perfect world, he’d be that guy that gives nightmares to teams because you’d have a Getzlaf, Kopitar, etc to line up on the first line and he’d be able to get some more offensive time.

I’d be happy if he gets to be one of the 25 best centres in the league; let alone an elite one.

 

[Lunatik]

1C in the "truest form". What a load of horseshit.

1C stands for 1st line center.

There are 31 teams with 1st lines. Thus the top 31 centers would be #1C. I'm willing to relax on the definition that some teams have 2 and others have none. But there is 1 number 1 center for every team

 

[Anglesmith]

1C in the "truest form". What a load of horse****.

1C stands for 1st line center.

There are 31 teams with 1st lines. Thus the top 31 centers would be #1C. I'm willing to relax on the definition that some teams have 2 and others have none. But there is 1 number 1 center for every team.

I agree.

It's all semantics, but it can be hard to discuss things when people all use the same terms but mean different things.

 

[Lunatik]

I'd also like to take this time to point out that since the start of the 2014-15 season, Sean Monahan is actually 15th in points among centermen and 7th in goals. The fact people don't consider him a #1 center is f***ing ridiculous.

No one would have any qualms about calling Jeff Carter a #1C would they? Fun fact, since the start of 2014-15, Monahan has 5 more goals and 3 fewer points and their GP totals are within 5 games of each other. It's time Monahan gets the respect he deserves.

 

[Dack]

1C in the "truest form". What a load of horse****.

1C stands for 1st line center.

There are 31 teams with 1st lines. Thus the top 31 centers would be #1C. I'm willing to relax on the definition that some teams have 2 and others have none. But there is 1 number 1 center for every team.

Okay if 1C isn't the proper phrasing I guess I'd change it to Centers that can be the best forward on a team that could contend.

I have Monahan somewhere in the 23-30 section so by your definition. I think he's a low end 1C in the same category as guys like Stepan, ROR and Turris.

It's great that he's 15th in points over that timeframe but players have been injured in that time frame and new players have come into the league and broken out since then. Theres also players who might not outscore him but are still better like Toews and Bergeron.

 

[Flameshomer]

Wait seriously? I thought it was unanimous that Backlund was our MVP last season. Last season Monahan had 5 more points while Backlund was our best PKer and our go to shutdown defensive Center. He spent his nights against the top lines of other teams and outside of against Bergeron and Crosby he usually came out on top. I think Backlund was much better than Monahan last season despite Monahan who plays on the 1st PP getting 5 more points. Why do you think otherwise?

Yes seriously, Monahan has faced top defensive coverage from opposing teams since he joined the flames. Backlund faces the opposing team's best offensive line and most often their second or third d pairing. Monahan still faces the best d pairing, in spite of Backlund's performance last season. So again, unless you're trying to tell me that you're a better judge of talent than 30 other NHL head coaches, I would say you're wrong.

Monahan’s Calgary’s 1C. He certainly isn’t a 1C in its truest form. He won’t take over a game, he won’t force teams to match their top lines against him because he’s the nightmare... he’s a guy who can win some face offs and find some quiet ice for Gaudreau to drive the line.

Monahan is a competent scoring centre; who is still learning his two way play. In a perfect world, he’d be that guy that gives nightmares to teams because you’d have a Getzlaf, Kopitar, etc to line up on the first line and he’d be able to get some more offensive time.

I’d be happy if he gets to be one of the 25 best centres in the league; let alone an elite one.

This is just BS. He's already top 25 easy, and he certainly could become elite. As Meth points out, he's produced points in the top 15. People forget how good he is because he's legit a boring player to watch.