Line Combos: If Marleau plays in the top nine, which forward from 16/17 Leafs is pushed down?

[cookie]

With respect to the Matt Martin discussion, I think that just having the guy on the team provides a kind of placebo effect for the players. If smaller guys like Brown or Marner feel safer with Martin on the team, then they're not going to be unconsciously limiting their games and tendencies on the ice because of fear. If it gives peace of mind to your star player(s), then fine. There's also player intimidation and other kinds of posturing that we rarely see...different players react differently to this and there's bound to be some that would take some solace in having a bruiser that has their back or a guy that will shift focus away.

Many of the younger guys may not have played during the rock 'em sock 'em era, but their coaches and older teammates sure did. Would they find solace in the math behind them not getting hurt or from a teammate that says that, and is paid to, protect them?

 

[Nithoniniel]

The only condescension on these forums comes from fans who only see the top skilled guys as any worth to a winning team.

Did you read his posts? He belittled people with discerning opinions while portraying himself superior without providing any argument for his case than an appeal to authority. You can't get more condescending than that.

With respect to the Matt Martin discussion, I think that just having the guy on the team provides a kind of placebo effect for the players. If smaller guys like Brown or Marner feel safer with Martin on the team, then they're not going to be unconsciously limiting their games and tendencies on the ice because of fear. If it gives peace of mind to your star player(s), then fine. There's also player intimidation and other kinds of posturing that we rarely see...different players react differently to this and there's bound to be some that would take some solace in having a bruiser that has their back or a guy that will shift focus away.

Many of the younger guys may not have played during the rock 'em sock 'em era, but their coaches and older teammates sure did. Would they find solace in the math behind them not getting hurt or from a teammate that says that, and is paid to, protect them?

Good post. This is the kind of stuff that I could agree with.

 

[TML Dynasty]

Thank you, nice to hear you think I'm epic. Think that's a bit exaggerated, but I appreciate it.

Explain something to me. If deterrents work, why are their teams just as likely to have injuries due to cheap shots as a team without any? Just happenstance that this important factor doesn't have any tangible effect across all teams through modern history?

Babcock might be fooled, he wouldn't be the first one to get trapped by confirmation bias when it comes to things like this. Or, as an all time great coach, he is aware of what I'm talking about but values Martin because of other things such as the effect that having someone who can push back might have on morale.

In fact, from what I remember of his quotes on the topic, he talks about wanting pushback. He wants there to be consequences if teams take liberties. I don't think he's been talking about determent or protection. Could be wrong though.

Nith, you are one of my fav posters in here but this seems to be a little contradictory. Don't you think perceived consequences if teams take liberties are a deterrent?

I think another poster summed up Martins value more with his hits.....a heavy player that grinds down the opposition and makes them look over their shoulder a little more. It also gives confidence to the other players as Cookie mentions above.

Hyman goes down to the 4th. Or they split Komo and Kadri with Komo on the 4th and Hyman with Kadri.
(think its the first tho)

Martin Moore Hyman

 

[Nithoniniel]

Nith, you are one of my fav posters in here but this seems to be a little contradictory. Don't you think perceived consequences if teams take liberties are a deterrent?

Thank you, and I agree that intuitively, you'd think so. I think the explanation to that boils down to a few things:

There is a deterring factor, but it's more in regards to liberties rather than cheap shots. People tend to be bullies when they can get away with it, which isn't when the little kid is backed up by his angry older brother. I think cheap shots are a different beast though, more spur-of-the-moment idiocy.

I also have a feeling that this effect probably is less profound on the type of reckless people who is likely to throw an intentional cheap shot. The normal player might think twice about giving Marner a facewash after whistle if he knows that Martin will take exception, but I doubt someone like Matt Cooke actually reflected on things like that when he decides to throw an elbow in someone's face.

As such, my issue isn't as much with the idea that having someone like Martin can have a profound effect. It's with the idea that without Martin, our rookies would have been injured left and right. As I see it it's more that without Martin, our rookies would constantly have people trying to intimidate them, especially post-whistle. To unknown effect.

It just surprises me that people are so hesitant to be critical to that concept. If a claim was made that, for example, left wingers score more goals when playing with a right-handed center, and the stats instead showed that they score the same amount of goals regardless, people would reject it instantly. It's pretty much the same here, but the idea is so ingrained that actual proof to the contrary isn't accepted*.

* With the caveat that reluctance to take my word for these numbers is perfectly reasonable. If I remember correctly, the source was not on one of the usual blogs but rather a scientific study. I should try to find it again, it was a good read.

 

[MagicalRazor]

i seriously think that Brown RW / Matthews C / Marleau LW

Would be a really good line . Id dabble with it for a few games .

Nylander is sposta play center anyways so mine as well start the transition slowly

 

[TML Dynasty]

Thank you, and I agree that intuitively, you'd think so. I think the explanation to that boils down to a few things:

There is a deterring factor, but it's more in regards to liberties rather than cheap shots. People tend to be bullies when they can get away with it, which isn't when the little kid is backed up by his angry older brother. I think cheap shots are a different beast though, more spur-of-the-moment idiocy.

I also have a feeling that this effect probably is less profound on the type of reckless people who is likely to throw an intentional cheap shot. The normal player might think twice about giving Marner a facewash after whistle if he knows that Martin will take exception, but I doubt someone like Matt Cooke actually reflected on things like that when he decides to throw an elbow in someone's face.

As such, my issue isn't as much with the idea that having someone like Martin can have a profound effect. It's with the idea that without Martin, our rookies would have been injured left and right. As I see it it's more that without Martin, our rookies would constantly have people trying to intimidate them, especially post-whistle. To unknown effect.

It just surprises me that people are so hesitant to be critical to that concept. If a claim was made that, for example, left wingers score more goals when playing with a right-handed center, and the stats instead showed that they score the same amount of goals regardless, people would reject it instantly. It's pretty much the same here, but the idea is so ingrained that actual proof to the contrary isn't accepted*.

* With the caveat that reluctance to take my word for these numbers is perfectly reasonable. If I remember correctly, the source was not on one of the usual blogs but rather a scientific study.

That's fair. Its hard to know what would've happened though if he wasn't dressed. But ya it probably doesn't stop cheap shots or dirty players.

 

[BEERnSOUP]

Hyman is vastly underrated because he lacks finishing ability. The number times we scored because of him but he didn't get a point on the play is pretty significant.

It'd be great if he also had more of a scorers touch, none the less having guys that do what he does playing more than just 4th line is extremely helpful. When you have players that you want to have the puck, put someone on their line that gets them the puck.

I will say there's a degree of inefficiency in his game. He sometime works really hard in very visible ways that someone approaching the play intelligently but not working as hard could get the job done just as well without being heralded as "blue collar". That said, there are plenty hard workers with size and a knack for winning battles, but very few who do that and are also very fast.

Maybe someone with more finishing ability will step into that role eventually, but right now no one on our team, and few players around the league have hyman's puck retrieval ability. That's not to say we lack grinders, Komarov can grind and also brings a lot of other positives to the table, but doesn't touch hyman in puck retrieval. He just doesn't have the speed to get on top of opposing players and cause a turnover like Hyman does. If hyman can up his defensive game some more, which I don't doubt he can given his work ethic and being coached by bab's, he can become a more effective komarov, minus the ability to play C. Yeah Komarov has a bit more scoring touch, but it isn't all that significant.

Hyman's a pretty valuable player... given the amount of talent we have and the cap that will be required to retain that talent, it might actually be fortunate that hyman brings what he does without the scoring touch, he's an extremely effective player who won't price himself off our team.

 

[Polaris1010]

Hyman is ...

Agree with everything you wrote.

Hyman is a decent NHL player, who does not and should not play on the 4th line.