Vlad The Impaler said:
The Hawks organization has been horrible too, at times. Still, I don't think they have deconstructed a really great team the way Mario is doing it right now.
I actually disagree with you on the Caps. First, not too long ago they made it to the SC final. That's not too shabby. You make it sound like they are the Rangers. A team that's been spending for 6-7 years without maing the playoffs.
I actually like Ted Leonsis. He is great with the fans (when he doesn't strangle them :p ), communicates with them, is dynamic and at least TRIES to put a winning product on the ice. He's the opposite of Lemieux. It just happens that Leonsis has not realized yet he has an incompetent as GM. I expect that realization to come soon. In the meantime, they are already making adjustments to change direction and at least try a proper build. All in all, they seem to care and react to the situations as they happen. That's a far cry from Pittsburgh, where you can see Mario in the press box SMILING and LAUGHING while his team is getting *****slapped for the 1Xth consecutive game in a row and getting fresh and ready for team Canada.
You got me. Pittsburgh stole my lunch money. That's why I often criticize them.
It couldn't possibly have anything to do with a string of horrible trades, poor drafting and various decisions made by an ownership situation that sucks diplodocus balls.
And the Pens made it to the EC final. They made the playoffs, what, 12 straight years?
Vlad you are more knowledgable than this. You are looking at things in black and white and not considering the reasons behind the many moves. You even stated in another post on this thread that you are looking at the bigger picture. I fail to see how you are looking at the bigger picture when it is obvious that the Penguins are doing exactly that. Looking at the big picture...ie: the future.
It has nothing to do with tanking anything and you know that.
Lemiuex likes his team finishing dead last? He likes not having the extra revenue that playoffs bring? He likes not having fans turn out to spend monies on the team? He wanted to get rid of Jagr,Lang, Straka, Kovalev?
Given that they need a new arena, and a succesful team would enhance the chances of getting one, I dont see how he benefits from tanking the season other than to get a 48% chance at drafting Ovechkin.
Please, Vlad, consider the extenuating circumstances in the matter and not the current result.
You have yet to even leave room to consider what the end result may be as well. They are following a plan....one that they need in order to stay viable...one that they need in order to survive.
These are things that you already know Vlad. It is well documented.
Regardless of how you may feel, I think your statement that they are tanking the season was erronius and reckless. To say they arent deserving of a number one pick, any more or any less, than any other team is the same.
Furthermore, I could care less if Mario is smiling in the press box. He has also been frowning at times as well. That is a rather weak attempt to pigeon hole Lemiuex as uncaring to bolster your argument. The fact that he sometimes smiles in the press box has nothing to do with what you suggest and I think that you know it. I have nothing but respect for your posts, but I dont understand what that is all about.
As well, The Pens have always "TRIED" to put a competitive product on the ice. And they have been more succesful than any franchise in the 90's (other than maybe Detroit) in doing so. I dont see why you would insinuate that they arent WANTING to be competitive.
That same product that they iced in the 90's (that they couldnt afford mind you) is the reason that they cant ice the talent that they could if they actually had money.
Other tidbits that I disagree with that you have posted in this thread:
Vlad said:
No, you're going to be bored to death. You're going to wonder why the **** you paid tickets at that price to see a one-sided effort leading to a boringly predictable effort.
Of every Pens game I have seen this year, I have maybe seen 4 boring efforts. This team plays with more heart and passion than most in the league. They are outskilled, plain and simple. To call thier effort into question is, well, questionable at best.
Vlad said:
But hey, you take offense when someone suggests that we should actually hope things are oing to change and that this type of "effort" should not be rewarded
No, I think most are taking offense to your strong, repeated staments that the Penguins are tanking the season. Especially when you leave no room for error, or that you may be wrong. Noone is taking offense to your wanting changes....they take offense to your unfounded speculations which have no actual, tangible proof, other than the team sucks (which there is proof for the reasons for the teams poor play). In essence there is a stated, solid reason behind the teams poor play. There is solid evidence why they are dead last. There is however, no evidence to suggest what you are suggesting, and that is why people take offense.
Not because people dont respect other's calling for changes.
Vlad said:
Even under a new CBA, Mario may have alienated the fanbase for several years. This situation, overall, is just not good. To see my position as an "attack" on the Pittsburgh market or its fans is just completely untrue. I truly feel sorry for what you are ging through. But you're going through it, in part, because you disagree with my position
No Vlad....we are going through it because we do not have the money to compete. It is as simple as that. No magic tricks or hidden agendas.
Vlad said:
If nothing happens, this whole situation is going to repeat itself, at which point another fan of another team is going to tell me he deserves Crosby, and so on. It has to stop as soon as possible.
Once again Vlad...you are missing the point. I dont think anyone here has said that the Pens deserve Ovechkin more so than the other teams near the bottom of the barrel. They are simply asking, if the Pens do not deserve Oveckin, then who does. You have yet to answer that.
They are also saying that the Pens deserve Ovechkin no LESS than any other team. Certainly I wouldnt say that they deserve him MORE than the teams in the last 3 positions.
And again, they are debating the faacy of your position that the Pens are tanking the season in order for the chance (note the word chance) to draft him.
Another fan of another team may say that thier team deserves crosby, but what I have understood most of the people to be saying isnt that we "deserve" Ovechkin, but that we don't NOT deserve him. And there is a huge difference there.
Vlad said:
It has to stop. We need pride in all NHL franchises, a desire to compete. We need to stop rewarding teams for taking it easy. Sure, a team HAS to finish 30th in the standings. That's the nature of the competition. But they should still be trying to compete.
Again, you yourself said that the team is competing, yet here you say that they aren't even trying. What gives? This team competes night in and out. I don't really think there is a question about that.
Another thing is that this team appears to have a bright future due to the effect that the young talent has had this year. Yet this is the same young talent that was drafted by what you stated was a bad drafting managment team. While there are reasons to be critical of the past Pens drafts, I certainly feel that the orginization has turned it around, and through both drafts and trades has aquired a VERY strong group of young talent. Which is exactly what a rebuilding franchise covets.
Another thing. Your proposal for how the draft should be would have the same exact flaws that every other draft has. Who is to say that a team won't "tank it" if they are in a position to draft a potential superstar franchise player?
There are many scenarios where this could happen as well. Say that there are five teams fighting for that last spot in the playoffs? Well you are going to have questions called out regardless, just like the ones that are being discussed here.
There are going to be flaws to any system. Period.
In summary, my whole point is that I find it rather trite to say that the Pens have tanked thier entire season on the chance of drafting Ovechkin when there are so many extenuating circumstances as to why they are in the shape they are in.
Instead of looking for conspiracies, we should just focus on the facts. The Pens are in last place because (A) they simply cannot afford to compete through free agency, and (B) they are rebuilding through thier drafting, which is what they should do. The rookies are going to be good, but they are rookies.
They are not tanking the season for the chance to draft a player that may not be the star some think he will be. They are failing because of finances. Pure and simple.
