If Bobby Orr was a forward?

BNHL

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I knew you'd be chiming in. You admit that Orr was at least in the top 4 players of all time (I think first by a wide margin-you know that) but Coffey may not be in the top 30 in my opinion. He,of all people,would have been a helluva center I think.
 

Sens Rule

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Comparing Orr and Coffey is like comparing Socrates to Moe Howard. Orr was stellar defensively,continually blocking shots,disrupting offenses and doing all the dirty work. Paul Coffey was a perfectly placed fourth forward with average defensive effort.

Comparing Orr to Coffey is comparing the 2 most similar defenceman to each other. Coffey's most similar player was Orr. Orr's was Coffey. The fact that Orr was better doesn't mean you can't compare them. They are very, very similar in style.

Coffey broke up a ton of plays defensively with the same skill as Orr his blazing speed. Plus Orr played with a bunch of massively talented forwards. As did Coffey.

The Willie Mays - Reggie Jackson comparision is not apt. I would say a Rickey Henderson (Orr) vs Tim Raines (Coffey) is more apt. Both were all-time greats - the best lead-off hitters in their leagues except Henderson was better. And of course both were the best baserunners too. Keeping the Anology of speed in the comparision.
 

BNHL

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Comparing Orr to Coffey is comparing the 2 most similar defenceman to each other. Coffey's most similar player was Orr. Orr's was Coffey. The fact that Orr was better doesn't mean you can't compare them. They are very, very similar in style.

Coffey broke up a ton of plays defensively with the same skill as Orr his blazing speed. Plus Orr played with a bunch of massively talented forwards. As did Coffey.

The Willie Mays - Reggie Jackson comparision is not apt. I would say a Rickey Henderson (Orr) vs Tim Raines (Coffey) is more apt. Both were all-time greats - the best lead-off hitters in their leagues except Henderson was better. And of course both were the best baserunners too. Keeping the Anology of speed in the comparision.

I think the baseball comparison had Orr (Mays) as the great all around player with Coffey (Jackson) the one dimensional offensive player. Coffey is way down the totem pole as an overall player and defensively no contest. My present day baseball analogy would be a younger,clean Barry Bonds (Orr) vs Manny Ramirez-HOF hitter with very average inconsistent defense.(Coffey).
 

Ogopogo*

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I knew you'd be chiming in. You admit that Orr was at least in the top 4 players of all time (I think first by a wide margin-you know that) but Coffey may not be in the top 30 in my opinion. He,of all people,would have been a helluva center I think.

I admit that Orr is #3 and I have Coffey at #19 all time. Orr is definitely better; there is definitely a gap. But, I do not agree that comparing Orr to Coffey is like comparing a god to a slug.
 

Sens Rule

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I think the baseball comparison had Orr (Mays) as the great all around player with Coffey (Jackson) the one dimensional offensive player. Coffey is way down the totem pole as an overall player and defensively no contest. My present day baseball analogy would be a younger,clean Barry Bonds (Orr) vs Manny Ramirez-HOF hitter with very average inconsistent defense.(Coffey).

Ramrez plays in the least important defensive position and is bad - sometimes terrible defensively. Coffey is not horrible defensively. Coffey is not near the all-time defensive greats on defence like Potvin, Bourque, Orr, Robinson, Harvey. But that is comparing him to the greatest defensive players of all-time. Coffey was a better defensive d-man than average without a doubt. He could be stellar defensively. He cheated offensively for sure. But that was what he was supposed to do. And it was not a Souray or McCabe deal where they would get beat one on one and be out of position. Coffey just took chances and was out of position many times. But that was what he was supposed to do. He gambled alot. But not the Pavel Bure type of gamble when he was in Florida and got 58 or 60 goals and cheated so much he hurt his team. Coffey cheated WITH the Puck not waiting to get it. That is a huge difference.

Orr cheated offensively a ton. And he was out of position alot. Orr was still great defensively of course. But how great would Orr have been if he had wanted to be an 80-90 point defenceman and focus on defence rather than offence? Instead he focussed on offence and got 120 points a year and still played good defence. But make no mistake Bobby Orr was focussed on offence more than defence like Coffey was.

People who criticize Coffey so much for his defence fail to remmeber that he was probably the second best offensive weapon in the entire NHL after Gretzky for several seasons in the mid 80's. And that he played a very physical game and was dirty and a huge agitator. He did all kind of intangible things to help his teams aside from score points. And they forget how an older Coffey played superb defence in the strike year for Detroit when he debatably was the best player in the NHL over Lindros and Jagr and led his team to the finals. And he was the best player on that years Wings team not Yzerman and not Fedorov. Coffey still scored then but he was playing a different game than in Edmonton and Pittsburgh and was far more focussed on both ends of the ice and not mostly on scoring. Yet he still scored at a great pace.

Coffey is a top 10 D-MAN EVER. And he was not horrible defensively. He was not Housley or Souray or McCabe or Corvo. He wasn't Ray Bourque either but Bourque never scored 100 points and Coffey in his prime puts up 125 points easily. Many think Coffey got all his points because he played with Gretzky and Mario. Surely that helped his point total but it also helped their point totals. 9/10 best offensive seasons EVER saw Mario or Gretzky playing with Coffey in his prime. Coffey in his prime is a 100 point player on any team in the NHL even if it was not the Gretzky talent rich Oilers. Heck he gets 100 points in his prime on the expansion Sharks or Sens.

Coffey in his prime is under-rated offensively because so many think it was just cause he was with Gretzky and Mario and defensively because so many think he was some kind of defensive lapse every shift.

Coffey in his prime was one of the very best players EVER. Comparable to most of the players just below the greatest ever Howe-Orr-Gretzky-Mario.
 

Ogopogo*

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I think the baseball comparison had Orr (Mays) as the great all around player with Coffey (Jackson) the one dimensional offensive player. Coffey is way down the totem pole as an overall player and defensively no contest. My present day baseball analogy would be a younger,clean Barry Bonds (Orr) vs Manny Ramirez-HOF hitter with very average inconsistent defense.(Coffey).

Why do you say Coffey was weak defensively. Do you have some evidence to offer up?

I don't recall him being terrible at all.
 

dafoomie

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Comparing Orr and Coffey is like comparing Socrates to Moe Howard.
GREAT quote, love it.

Coffey was a trainwreck defensively, anything else is revisionist history. Orr was brilliant defensively, and was still better than Coffey offensively. Coffey is a great player, a hall of famer, but he's not in the discussion with Orr as the greatest player ever to play the game for a reason.


As for the original question, the Bruins considered playing Orr at center, but decided they were better off with him on D due to icetime. He'd be on the ice for the majority of the game on D, and considerably less at forward.
 

Ogopogo*

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I'd suspect you'd see a 50% increase in his points as well as a Selke winner (when did that start?). Imagine if he had a 40-50 foot head start regularly. They'd be forced to keep both defenseman back and 2 players against 1 Orr is suicide. I'd predict regular 180-220 point output while fighting his own battles and providing superb 2 way play with less minutes.

How exactly would he put up more points with less ice time?
 

Ogopogo*

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Like the way Orr intimidates Gretzky fans including you , you mean?:sarcasm:


I have never bashed Orr. I offer facts and data to counter outrageous statements made like "Gretzky couldn't carry Orr's jock"
 

BNHL

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I have never bashed Orr. I offer facts and data to counter outrageous statements made like "Gretzky couldn't carry Orr's jock"

....and I offer my opinion of the numerous times I saw all of them play in person as a 40 year Bruin season ticket holder. Coffey was an average defenseman at best playing at the Garden when I was there and any other claim is just fandom. I guess I saw Gretzky approx 30 times in person and Coffey about 60-including his farewell debacle with the Bruins. I saw Orr about 200 times in person.
 

Stonefly

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Why do you say Coffey was weak defensively. Do you have some evidence to offer up?

I don't recall him being terrible at all.

Take a squeegee and wipe the oil slick from your glasses and watch some old games again. ;)
Coffey was mediocre defensively.
 

BNHL

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These three are all great, and worthy of consideration as the best ever, but I think we're overlooking an aspect of the play of the Holy Trinity (Howe, the Father, Gretz the Son and the magnificent Orr, the Holy Ghost) that overwhelms most of the stats that have been thrown out there so far in this debate. What one player controlled the games he played in more than any other, before or since? What one player consistently dominated hockey games to the point where you could hear crowds openly laughing, whether they be at home or on the road? The answer of course is the incomparable Bobby Orr. Ask Howe, Montreal Gazette writer Red Fisher or Hall of Famer Milt Schmidt, they'll tell ya. These three highly qualified observers of the NHL who collectively have been watching the NHL since the 1930's and have literally seen 'em all, all say Orr is the greatest hockey player ever. When considering greatness and domination of the NHL, how about if we dig a little deeper, beyond mere single season or career point totals when assessing the merits of Orr, Gretzky and Howe, such as: Average points per game throughout a career? Orr is # 1 with approx. 1.48 points per game. Such as career plus/minus figures? Orr is #1 with a plus 591 (approximately) in approximately 590 games played. Gretzky is second with a plus 590 (again approximately) in approximately 1450 games played. That's right, your eyes are not deceiving you. Such as best plus/minus seasons ever? Orr owns the top several plus/minus seasons ever, with his best being approximately +145. Now anyone could say plus/minus doesn't always tell the story...but when the numbers are so undeniably and consistently dominant, in combination with the highest career points per game average, one cannot help but sit up and take notice. In every category, Orr blows everyone away, with neither Gretz or Howe are even close. I love all three players, but if greatness is dominating the sport one plays, Orr gets the nod, much as Michael Jordan gets the nod in basketball. The reason? Orr and Jordan could each dominate their respective sport both offensively AND defensively. In the NHL, we can only say that of Orr. While many have played a great, 2-way game throughout their careers, it's a question of degree...no one has done it to the extent Orr did it. Gretz scored more points over his career, but then again, that's what forwards do...their primary role is to score points, but would it have been reasonable to expect Gretz to dominate defensively too? The same could be said of Howe, though on top of his tremendous skills, he added an element of toughness and intimidation that neither Gretz nor Orr could duplicate. But as great and as tough as he was, did Howe also dominate defensively? Nope, but then again, as a forward, that wasn't his role was it? As a defenseman, Orr's primary role was to play defense, yet he leads both Gretz and Howe in average points scored per game, as well as in career plus/minus figures despite playing more minutes per game than either of them. As we all know, the more minutes one plays, the more difficult it is to maintain respectable plus/minus figures. The degree to which Orr dominates these numbers is literally staggering. And for Orr to score more than 100 points while also dominating defensively and playing more than 30 minutes per game only begins to explain why he's the greatest hockey player ever. And we haven't addressed the laughter generated by Orr's game crowds yet, or the entertainment aspect that Orr's presence brought to any rink which has never been seen before or since. Orr played "Keep Away" with the puck, not unlike the quickest dog you've ever seen with a tennis ball. Guys couldn't take the puck away from him; they couldn't catch him very often, and when they did, he was quick, clever and strong enough to pass it to a teammate most of the time. Imagine for a moment...if we could put Howe, Gretz and Orr in their primes out on a lake for a little pond hockey, who do you think would have won? Who would have been the Big Dog? Obviously, I have my answer, and you probably have yours. But if you never saw Orr play, think about the above numbers a bit, combined with all that ice time...you'll find that neither Howe nor Gretz ruled to the extent Orr did. What's really frightening is to consider how those three (and Mario, who belongs as the 4th most dominant IMHO) would have done in "the new NHL". Orr was the strongest skater ever, also the fastest, which unfortunately took a toll on his knees; it's a shame he didn't play during today's medical era. No one circled the net like him, and remember...Orr was doing the spin-a-rama long before Dennis Savard came along. And as former Bruin teammate Gerry Cheevers, the Hall of Fame goalie said recently, if Orr were playing today, there's no doubt he'd be just as dominant, if not moreso. That's because one of the things that separated Orr was his ability to operate at top speed, without losing control of his hockey skills. It's been said many times that Orr maintained his incredible hockey skills while simultaneously playing at top speed, which was faster than everyone else. Most players need to slow down a bit to remain in control of their skills, but not Orr. Talk to his peers, like Bobby Clarke, who said Orr should have been playing in a different league because he was just that much better than they were. While Gretz and Howe were both great and obviously dominant players, if you take a look at some of the numbers cited above (which are approximate but very close to accurate, I didn't enter this blog knowing I'd writing about this and I can't leave to get the numbers without losing the blog) in conjunction with what peers and longtime NHL media say about each of them, you'll find that Orr's literally on a different plane. The words of praise reserved for Orr are unique to him and no one else, perhaps best expressed by CBS' Bill Mazur during an interview with Bobby Hull and Bobby Orr on a Game-of-the-Week in about 1970: "To my right, Bobby Hull, The Golden Jet, and to my left, Bobby Orr...The Golden Golden!".
'Nuff said.

"From the Legends of the Edmonton Oilers" and it has some errors.
 

Stonefly

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I have never bashed Orr. I offer facts and data to counter outrageous statements made like "Gretzky couldn't carry Orr's jock"

You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too. :)
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.
 

BNHL

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You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too. :)
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.

Great stat. Seems anytime there is an Orr thread that guy shows up. I never enter those Gretzky threads because I find the topic boring unless of course I see Orr's name. I was the one who made the jock comment as I once heard an old timer say it at a B's game that had Semenko riding Gretzky's wing. I've seen them both many times and the better hockey player could not escape your eyes..
 

Ogopogo*

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You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too. :)
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.

Considering that Coffey was 8.3% responsible for that number, I am not too worried about it.
 

Ogopogo*

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How do you figure? Just curious.

For an even strength goal, there are 12 players on the ice. Coffey is one of those 12 or 8.3% of the players that could be responsible for the goal.

Saying that any one player is responsible for those goals is foolishness. +/- and related stats are virtually worthless.
 

pitseleh

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You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too. :)
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.

I don't see how that'd be possible. Qualitatively looking at Coffey's +/- numbers (I don't have a cumulative number) he should be a plus player for his career. Even if all of his points were even strength (meaning he got a + for all of them) having 1654 ESGA would make him a minus player. I don't think that is right.

Maybe pnep or HO can enlighten us.
 

Psycho Papa Joe

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I don't see how that'd be possible. Qualitatively looking at Coffey's +/- numbers (I don't have a cumulative number) he should be a plus player for his career. Even if all of his points were even strength (meaning he got a + for all of them) having 1654 ESGA would make him a minus player. I don't think that is right.

Maybe pnep or HO can enlighten us.

Coffey is a career +294.
 

John Flyers Fan

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I don't see how that'd be possible. Qualitatively looking at Coffey's +/- numbers (I don't have a cumulative number) he should be a plus player for his career. Even if all of his points were even strength (meaning he got a + for all of them) having 1654 ESGA would make him a minus player. I don't think that is right.

Maybe pnep or HO can enlighten us.

You can be on the ice for a plus and not get any points, so theoretically he could be on the ice for 1,654 esga and still be a plus player for his career.
 

Stonefly

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For an even strength goal, there are 12 players on the ice. Coffey is one of those 12 or 8.3% of the players that could be responsible for the goal.

Saying that any one player is responsible for those goals is foolishness. +/- and related stats are virtually worthless.

Ok, I'll bite. Why would you include the team that is playing against in your calculation?
 

Ogopogo*

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Ok, I'll bite. Why would you include the team that is playing against in your calculation?

Because it could be a brilliant play by an opposition player that scores a goal and that is nobody's fault.

There are 12 players on the ice and you cannot blame any one for their own personal +/-. If you want to only count players on your own team, so be it. Either way, +/- is such a farce because 5 other players on my team could be dragging me down or propping me up.

Ever notice that the top 10 players in +/- are all on good teams? Ever notice that the bottom 10 are all on bad teams? Coincidence you think? Hell, you could have Dan Cloutier as your goaltender, totally destroying your +/-.

It is NOT an individual stat - and there is no evidence that the number you threw out is even accurate.
 
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