I knew you'd be chiming in. You admit that Orr was at least in the top 4 players of all time (I think first by a wide margin-you know that) but Coffey may not be in the top 30 in my opinion. He,of all people,would have been a helluva center I think.
Comparing Orr and Coffey is like comparing Socrates to Moe Howard. Orr was stellar defensively,continually blocking shots,disrupting offenses and doing all the dirty work. Paul Coffey was a perfectly placed fourth forward with average defensive effort.
Comparing Orr to Coffey is comparing the 2 most similar defenceman to each other. Coffey's most similar player was Orr. Orr's was Coffey. The fact that Orr was better doesn't mean you can't compare them. They are very, very similar in style.
Coffey broke up a ton of plays defensively with the same skill as Orr his blazing speed. Plus Orr played with a bunch of massively talented forwards. As did Coffey.
The Willie Mays - Reggie Jackson comparision is not apt. I would say a Rickey Henderson (Orr) vs Tim Raines (Coffey) is more apt. Both were all-time greats - the best lead-off hitters in their leagues except Henderson was better. And of course both were the best baserunners too. Keeping the Anology of speed in the comparision.
I knew you'd be chiming in. You admit that Orr was at least in the top 4 players of all time (I think first by a wide margin-you know that) but Coffey may not be in the top 30 in my opinion. He,of all people,would have been a helluva center I think.
I think the baseball comparison had Orr (Mays) as the great all around player with Coffey (Jackson) the one dimensional offensive player. Coffey is way down the totem pole as an overall player and defensively no contest. My present day baseball analogy would be a younger,clean Barry Bonds (Orr) vs Manny Ramirez-HOF hitter with very average inconsistent defense.(Coffey).
I think the baseball comparison had Orr (Mays) as the great all around player with Coffey (Jackson) the one dimensional offensive player. Coffey is way down the totem pole as an overall player and defensively no contest. My present day baseball analogy would be a younger,clean Barry Bonds (Orr) vs Manny Ramirez-HOF hitter with very average inconsistent defense.(Coffey).
GREAT quote, love it.Comparing Orr and Coffey is like comparing Socrates to Moe Howard.
I'd suspect you'd see a 50% increase in his points as well as a Selke winner (when did that start?). Imagine if he had a 40-50 foot head start regularly. They'd be forced to keep both defenseman back and 2 players against 1 Orr is suicide. I'd predict regular 180-220 point output while fighting his own battles and providing superb 2 way play with less minutes.
People love to bash Coffey - perhaps becaue he intimidated Orr fans?
Ummm... maybe the same way most forwards put up more points than defensemen?How exactly would he put up more points with less ice time?
Like the way Orr intimidates Gretzky fans including you , you mean?
How exactly would he put up more points with less ice time?
I have never bashed Orr. I offer facts and data to counter outrageous statements made like "Gretzky couldn't carry Orr's jock"
Why do you say Coffey was weak defensively. Do you have some evidence to offer up?
I don't recall him being terrible at all.
I have never bashed Orr. I offer facts and data to counter outrageous statements made like "Gretzky couldn't carry Orr's jock"
You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too.
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.
You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too.
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.
Considering that Coffey was 8.3% responsible for that number, I am not too worried about it.
How do you figure? Just curious.
You're still on about that? It must really irritate you but I don't recall reading that statement in this thread. It was not I who said that in the other thread either. Just clearing my name there.
Facts and data are great but they hardly tell the whole story on any player. It's ok to use your eyes and form opinions that way too.
But if you want a stat about Coffey's defensive play here's one for what it's worth - 1531 career points and 1654 even strength goals against. If this stat is not correct please let me know. I am actually curious to know if it is accurate.
I don't see how that'd be possible. Qualitatively looking at Coffey's +/- numbers (I don't have a cumulative number) he should be a plus player for his career. Even if all of his points were even strength (meaning he got a + for all of them) having 1654 ESGA would make him a minus player. I don't think that is right.
Maybe pnep or HO can enlighten us.
I don't see how that'd be possible. Qualitatively looking at Coffey's +/- numbers (I don't have a cumulative number) he should be a plus player for his career. Even if all of his points were even strength (meaning he got a + for all of them) having 1654 ESGA would make him a minus player. I don't think that is right.
Maybe pnep or HO can enlighten us.
For an even strength goal, there are 12 players on the ice. Coffey is one of those 12 or 8.3% of the players that could be responsible for the goal.
Saying that any one player is responsible for those goals is foolishness. +/- and related stats are virtually worthless.
Ok, I'll bite. Why would you include the team that is playing against in your calculation?