I don't think Bettman wanted to make a deal.

[CarlRacki]

That would be just fine, if Bettman wasn't quoted as saying he thought he could salvage the season at $45 Million.

Which is it? Either Bettman said he believed he could salvage the season at $45 million or he's a bad, bad man for refusing to budge off $42.5 million. Pick one.
I think it's pretty clear Bettman left the players a final crack to seep through at about $45 million. The players decided they'd rather not take that step.

 

[flyercide]

I remember when you were one of the most respected posters at Hockeysfuture.

lol, i bet he has heck of lot more respect around here than you! last i checked this wasn't a thread attacking other posters. get w the program.

 

[richardn]

If the NHLPA had made a reasonable counteroffer, and it had been rejected, I could believe the "NHL didn't want to make a deal" theory. However the NHLPA counteroffers were configured for automatic rejection, and were playing hardball in attempt to get the NHL to move some more. That strategy not only didn't work, but it backfired so much the NHLPA has now completely lost the public relations battle, to the point that the NHL can ice replacement players whenever/whereever legally possible and fully expect the support of most fans, assuming, of course, proper pricing and marketing.

The PA never had a final offer they offered 49 because they wanted to negotiate. They wanted the NHL to come back with the final offer of 45 and agree. If the NHL would have offered 45 the PA would have seen this as another comprimise and thought hey, the NHL is comprimising lets take this deal.

 

[mooseOAK*]

The PA never had a final offer they offered 49 because they wanted to negotiate. They wanted the NHL to come back with the final offer of 45 and agree. If the NHL would have offered 45 the PA would have seen this as another comprimise and thought hey, the NHL is comprimising lets take this deal.

I don't recall Goodenow saying anything like that.

 

[SPARTAKUS*]

Goodenow would have been fired back in september if he had reckomended for the players to take the leagues offer. I for no means support Goodnow and the way he negotiates. I just think Bettman is making it impossible for comprimise which is all the players truely want instead of insult.

You know what? I don't give a rats ass about what the players want. We got in this mess way back in '94 when the players got what they wanted. No more!!! This time the owners will have want they want "linkake". Because the owners are the only one who knows what's good for the NHL.

Peace.

 

[chiavsfan]

Last I checked, the letter with the FINAL offer was before Goodenow came down to 49. But then he threw that Item #7 loophole in there, and probably screwed up the whole thing

 

[richardn]

That would be just fine, if Bettman wasn't quoted as saying he thought he could salvage the season at $45 Million.

I think this statement just through salt into the wounds of the players. They all felt that it was turn to counter offer and chose to cancel the season.

 

[officeglen]

The PA never had a final offer they offered 49 because they wanted to negotiate. They wanted the NHL to come back with the final offer of 45 and agree. If the NHL would have offered 45 the PA would have seen this as another comprimise and thought hey, the NHL is comprimising lets take this deal.

So they wanted another offer from the league, but Bargaining Bob ended his letter to Bettman with:

You will receive nothing further from us.

Regards,

NATIONAL HOCKEY LEAGUE
PLAYERS ASSOCIATION

Robert W. Goodenow
Executive Director & General Counsel

 

[Egil]

If Bettman was willing to go to $45, and no more, then he needed the NHLPA to come back at no higher than $47, with no clause #7. Instead, Bob came back with $49, and clause 7, and Bettman wasn't going to budge. The owners, having re-initiated everything sicne Linden did something in January, wern't going to continue playing that game.

IF the PA is willing to go to $45 M, then OFFER it right now, and see what happens. Guaranteed Bettman was willing to move off $42.5 hard, but he wasn't willing to move off that with the other side at $49 soft and upwards adjustable. The players needed to come back much lower than they did.

 

[CarlRacki]

I think this statement just through salt into the wounds of the players. They all felt that it was turn to counter offer and chose to cancel the season.

Which part of Bettman's statement Tuesday night that " This offer is not an invitation to begin negotiations - it's too late for that" was unclear?

 

[richardn]

I am angry with the fact that the owners could have and full well knew they could have made a 45 cap work. But instead chose to cancel the season knowing they could get a better offer. But yet the players are greedy.

 

[HockeyCritter]

It is clear now to me that Bettman never had any intentions of saving the season to begin with. I believe Bettman is trying to crush the union all together. I mean think about it. The players offer 24% rollback with luxury tax and what does Bettman do. Takes their offer and combines it with his triple cap , thats got to be the worst negotiateing tactic I have ever seen. How in any way does that show you are willing to negotiate. He then waits till the last second to take linkage off the table. So what does the PA do? The PA says ok, lets make a deal and offers a cap only to be rejected with a final offer thats insulting to the players after every thing they have concieded. Bettman then waits to the press conmerence to say that he probably would have took 45 million cap, but yet he didn't offer it when the NHLPA made their counter of 49. Instead he sent Goodnow a letter saying that their cap puts the league payroll at 75% of league revenues and that they had to 11 am to accept the offer . If anyone actually believes this they are not all there. Let me get this straight all 30 teams are going to all of a sudden go to the cap max. The fact is 9 teams tops would be at the cap max. How many people think the teams with 20 something payrolls are going to all of a sudden say lets make our payroll 49 Million.

My take is Gary Bettman knew that he had the players by the balls when they offered the cap. He purposely went out of his way to piss off the players by slapping them in the face with his final offer, knowing full well the players would not accept his final offer. Bettman really wanted to cancel the season so he could use it for leverage. I mean with no season now and all offers off the table. Bettman can crush the union now which is starting to give signs of being divided. He knows that by cancelling the season he has a great shot at getting his triple cap at 30 and change. Thus giving everyone an oscar speech on how sorry he is that he has no choice but to cancel the season. If Gary had any intentions on saving the season he would have swallowed his pride and got on the phone and said Bob how about 45. Where do we go from here know. If we don't have hockey come september and I don't count scabs as NHL hockey, I don't know if the NHL would be able to survive a work stopage of two full seasons, which is where this appears to be going.

If that’s true, why didn’t’ the PA then offer $44-million on the cap figure or even accept the $42.5-million and call Bettman’s bluff?

 

[richardn]

Which part of Bettman's statement Tuesday night that " This offer is not an invitation to begin negotiations - it's too late for that" was unclear?

This proves he didn't want to save the season. Also why did he admit he probably would have taken 45 if he no longer wanted to negotiate.

 

[HockeyCritter]

i heard from somewhere yesterday that after bettman got the players letter saying they accepted a salary cap at 52 (or whatever it was) bettman went to the owners and send "I think I can get a deal at 47 mill cap". there were 6 hard line owners who said absolutly not 42 mill cap is to high already. I think busting the union is clearly on the adjenda of some of the owners.

Six isn't enough to veto a CBA . . . .

 

[chiavsfan]

This proves he didn't want to save the season. Also why did he admit he probably would have taken 45 if he no longer wanted to negotiate.

What part of "THE OWNERS TELL BETTMAN WHAT TO DO" do PA people not understand?

 

[Egil]

Six isn't enough to veto a CBA . . . .

If a MAJORITY of the BoG wanted the deal proposed by the PA, we would be playing. While it only took 8 owners to block a deal that Bettman opposed, it only takes 16 owners to fire Bettman and replace him with someone who will recomend the deal. This entire 8 owners nonsense is just that, nonsense.

 

[Brewleaguer]

It is clear now to me that Bettman never had any intentions of saving the season to begin with. I believe Bettman is trying to crush the union all together. I mean think about it. The players offer 24% rollback with luxury tax and what does Bettman do. Takes their offer and combines it with his triple cap , thats got to be the worst negotiateing tactic I have ever seen. How in any way does that show you are willing to negotiate. He then waits till the last second to take linkage off the table. So what does the PA do? The PA says ok, lets make a deal and offers a cap only to be rejected with a final offer thats insulting to the players after every thing they have concieded. Bettman then waits to the press conmerence to say that he probably would have took 45 million cap, but yet he didn't offer it when the NHLPA made their counter of 49. Instead he sent Goodnow a letter saying that their cap puts the league payroll at 75% of league revenues and that they had to 11 am to accept the offer . If anyone actually believes this they are not all there. Let me get this straight all 30 teams are going to all of a sudden go to the cap max. The fact is 9 teams tops would be at the cap max. How many people think the teams with 20 something payrolls are going to all of a sudden say lets make our payroll 49 Million.

My take is Gary Bettman knew that he had the players by the balls when they offered the cap. He purposely went out of his way to piss off the players by slapping them in the face with his final offer, knowing full well the players would not accept his final offer. Bettman really wanted to cancel the season so he could use it for leverage. I mean with no season now and all offers off the table. Bettman can crush the union now which is starting to give signs of being divided. He knows that by cancelling the season he has a great shot at getting his triple cap at 30 and change. Thus giving everyone an oscar speech on how sorry he is that he has no choice but to cancel the season. If Gary had any intentions on saving the season he would have swallowed his pride and got on the phone and said Bob how about 45. Where do we go from here know. If we don't have hockey come september and I don't count scabs as NHL hockey, I don't know if the NHL would be able to survive a work stopage of two full seasons, which is where this appears to be going.

There is no question he wants to break the union, most (if not all) businesses want to.
This whole thing really came down to linkage. The PA didn't want a cap with linkage, the owners kept saying linkage, it went on and on until the League dropped linkage then the PA says good lets talk cap then. It's a plain as the nose on your face.
But of Gary thinks that any replacement players are not going to try and form another one, he is saddly mistaken.

 

[HockeyCritter]

Which part of Bettman's statement Tuesday night that " This offer is not an invitation to begin negotiations - it's too late for that" was unclear?

Did you read the entire letter . . . . . the paragraph containing that sentence reads as follows: (see link) for full letter.

"We are increasing our offer of yesterday by increasing the maximum individual team cap to $44.7MM ($42.5MM in salary and $2.2MM in benefits). This offer is not an invitation to begin negotiations -- it's too late for that. This is our last effort to make a deal that's fair to the players and one that the Clubs (hopefully) can afford. We have no more flexibility and there is no time for further negotiation."

It seems clear to me that Bettman is saying that while upping the offer, time was running short and not closing the door for all future negotiations. A deadline was set and it was quickly approaching.

And since the PA didn't even attempt to offer anything close to $45-million . . . . well, who knows.

EDIT:Because the link wasn't working . . but now is.

 

[rekrul]

going from what the sharks CEO said yesturday getting the "right' deal was allways the agenda then a "deal" and from the rumblings it sounds that 42.5mil was absoutly the highest GB and gang intended, perhaps going beyond. Knowing the the NHLPA would refuse and seeing the splinters already they want to get back to linkage and lowcap come summer.

what seems to be the "plan" all along to reverse the 10 years of downward trend the NHL has taken is A) get salarys way down, link them to revenue if possible, and cap the amount. B) relaunch the NHL with new rules, better on ice product, new logo. generate enthusiam for the product. C) grow the game with new marketing and try to get TV interested again. In the words of Greg Jaminson CEO you can't get to "C" without starting at "A".

I'm not saying that count bettman and the gang of owners stategy is right or will work, just seems that the plan was laid out all along.

 

[Brewleaguer]

If Bettman was willing to go to $45, and no more, then he needed the NHLPA to come back at no higher than $47, with no clause #7. Instead, Bob came back with $49, and clause 7, and Bettman wasn't going to budge. The owners, having re-initiated everything sicne Linden did something in January, wern't going to continue playing that game.

IF the PA is willing to go to $45 M, then OFFER it right now, and see what happens. Guaranteed Bettman was willing to move off $42.5 hard, but he wasn't willing to move off that with the other side at $49 soft and upwards adjustable. The players needed to come back much lower than they did.

Why then did Bettman only increase the cap up by 500K when Goodenow came down 3mil from the original cap offer. PA took giant leaps to meet half way, Bettman took baby steps. Thats really sad.

 

[HockeyCritter]

Why then did Bettman only increase the cap up by 500K when Goodenow came down 3mil from the original cap offer. PA took giant leaps to meet half way, Bettman took baby steps. Thats really sad.

It was increased $2.5-million . . .

"We attempted to reach out to you with yesterday's offer of a team maximum cap of $42.2MM ($40MM in salary and $2.2MM in benefits) which was not linked to League-wide revenues."

<<<snipped l letter >>>

We are increasing our offer of yesterday by increasing the maximum individual team cap to $44.7MM ($42.5MM in salary and $2.2MM in benefits).​

 

[GKJ]

Wirtz, Jacobs and Karmanos have no business telling anyone what's best for the league.
Wirtz has run an Original 6 franchise into the ground.
Jacobs lets bill Guerin and Jason Allison go, but he's willing to pay big buck to Marty Lapointe.
Karmanos moves a team to Carolina, and offers the most inflationary RFA contract in league history.

Exactly. They're the guys calling the shots in this. Not the ones who make money and run a healthy franchise. The ones who can wait until October before they start making their voices heard.



actually, to give the devil his due, the Flyers offered the most inflationary RFA contract in league history to Chris Gratton that included a $10M signing bonus, but I see your point

 

[SENSible1*]

I remember when you were one of the most respected posters at Hockeysfuture.

His post was completely accurate and in keeping with his status as one of the most respected posters.

 

[DropThePuck]

Why are the pro-player people ignoring article 7 in the player proposal. They now accept linkage as long as it benefits them. They now agree on a definition of revenue when it benefits them. I would have laughed at their "caving in" to the salary cap. Their version of a salary cap was linked to revenue with the down year of 05-06 as the base. Their cap would have risen to $70-$75 million once revenues stabilized. Before people fly off the handle, I am not pro owner. They both screwed up the process by refusing to come off their respective positions. Rule #1 of negotiation is never say never. Both sides failed miserably. But the players last offer was a joke. If they had offerred it without article 7 then maybe it would been a huge step toward a settlement. But as offerred, it would have never been accepted.

 

[SENSible1*]

If the NHLPA had made a reasonable counteroffer, and it had been rejected, I could believe the "NHL didn't want to make a deal" theory. However the NHLPA counteroffers were configured for automatic rejection, and were playing hardball in attempt to get the NHL to move some more. That strategy not only didn't work, but it backfired so much the NHLPA has now completely lost the public relations battle, to the point that the NHL can ice replacement players whenever/whereever legally possible and fully expect the support of most fans, assuming, of course, proper pricing and marketing.

Great post.

The PA offers were not designed to be the basis for a deal, but merely to hedge on the impasse front and try to force movement out of ownership.

It was fun to watch the look on Bob's face as his plan backfired.