I don't think Bettman wanted to make a deal.

[richardn]

It is clear now to me that Bettman never had any intentions of saving the season to begin with. I believe Bettman is trying to crush the union all together. I mean think about it. The players offer 24% rollback with luxury tax and what does Bettman do. Takes their offer and combines it with his triple cap , thats got to be the worst negotiateing tactic I have ever seen. How in any way does that show you are willing to negotiate. He then waits till the last second to take linkage off the table. So what does the PA do? The PA says ok, lets make a deal and offers a cap only to be rejected with a final offer thats insulting to the players after every thing they have concieded. Bettman then waits to the press conmerence to say that he probably would have took 45 million cap, but yet he didn't offer it when the NHLPA made their counter of 49. Instead he sent Goodnow a letter saying that their cap puts the league payroll at 75% of league revenues and that they had to 11 am to accept the offer . If anyone actually believes this they are not all there. Let me get this straight all 30 teams are going to all of a sudden go to the cap max. The fact is 9 teams tops would be at the cap max. How many people think the teams with 20 something payrolls are going to all of a sudden say lets make our payroll 49 Million.

My take is Gary Bettman knew that he had the players by the balls when they offered the cap. He purposely went out of his way to piss off the players by slapping them in the face with his final offer, knowing full well the players would not accept his final offer. Bettman really wanted to cancel the season so he could use it for leverage. I mean with no season now and all offers off the table. Bettman can crush the union now which is starting to give signs of being divided. He knows that by cancelling the season he has a great shot at getting his triple cap at 30 and change. Thus giving everyone an oscar speech on how sorry he is that he has no choice but to cancel the season. If Gary had any intentions on saving the season he would have swallowed his pride and got on the phone and said Bob how about 45. Where do we go from here know. If we don't have hockey come september and I don't count scabs as NHL hockey, I don't know if the NHL would be able to survive a work stopage of two full seasons, which is where this appears to be going.

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[A Good Flying Bird*]

It is clear now to me that Bettman never had any intentions of saving the season to begin with. I believe Bettman is trying to crush the union all together. I mean think about it. The players offer 24% rollback with luxury tax and what does Bettman do. Takes their offer and combines it with his triple cap , thats got to be the worst negotiateing tactic I have ever seen. How in any way does that show you are willing to negotiate. He then waits till the last second to take linkage off the table. So what does the PA do? The PA says ok, lets make a deal and offers a cap only to be rejected with a final offer thats insulting to the players after every thing they have concieded. Bettman then waits to the press conmerence to say that he probably would have took 45 million cap, but yet he didn't offer it when the NHLPA made their counter of 49. Instead he sent Goodnow a letter saying that their cap puts the league payroll at 75% of league revenues and that they had to 11 am to accept the offer . If anyone actually believes this they are not all there. Let me get this straight all 30 teams are going to all of a sudden go to the cap max. The fact is 9 teams tops would be at the cap max. How many people think the teams with 20 something payrolls are going to all of a sudden say lets make our payroll 49 Million.

My take is Gary Bettman knew that he had the players by the balls when they offered the cap. He purposely went out of his way to piss off the players by slapping them in the face with his final offer, knowing full well the players would not accept his final offer. Bettman really wanted to cancel the season so he could use it for leverage. I mean with no season now and all offers off the table. Bettman can crush the union now which is starting to give signs of being divided. He knows that by cancelling the season he has a great shot at getting his triple cap at 30 and change. Thus giving everyone an oscar speech on how sorry he is that he has no choice but to cancel the season. If Gary had any intentions on saving the season he would have swallowed his pride and got on the phone and said Bob how about 45. Where do we go from here know. If we don't have hockey come september and I don't count scabs as NHL hockey, I don't know if the NHL would be able to survive a work stopage of two full seasons, which is where this appears to be going.

I don't agree with all your premises, but I agree that something doesn't add up.

How do spend 150 days arguing for the neccessity of a cap, win the cap, and then cancel the season after only 24 hours of negotiating the numbers in the cap.
It seems to me that we would have had a deal with in 24-48 hours if the two sides were negotiating instead of firing off letters in the night.

Something doesn't add up.

 

[chiavsfan]

Same old rhetoric that the pro-PA crowd has been spewing this whole time. Their leader, Bob Goodenow embarassed himself in this negotiation because he thought he could get the owners to cave. He was wrong, and he will most likely IMO be fired for his actions. Goodenow also went up to the podium and acted like a 2 year old who got his lollipop taken away, a real ADULT way to act in a major sports league.

Not ONCE did the PA explain why a cap wouldn't work
They wouldn't audit the NHL's books when asked to do so
They would not let the players take a vote on a proposal

Bettman wanted to bring the cap higher, the owners wouldn't let him...end of story

 

[richardn]

Same old rhetoric that the pro-PA crowd has been spewing this whole time. Their leader, Bob Goodenow embarassed himself in this negotiation because he thought he could get the owners to cave. He was wrong, and he will most likely IMO be fired for his actions. Goodenow also went up to the podium and acted like a 2 year old who got his lollipop taken away, a real ADULT way to act in a major sports league.

Not ONCE did the PA explain why a cap wouldn't work
They wouldn't audit the NHL's books when asked to do so
They would not let the players take a vote on a proposal

Bettman wanted to bring the cap higher, the owners wouldn't let him...end of story

Bettman agreed that they might have salvaged a season at 45 million.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Same old rhetoric that the pro-PA crowd has been spewing this whole time. Their leader, Bob Goodenow embarassed himself in this negotiation because he thought he could get the owners to cave. He was wrong, and he will most likely IMO be fired for his actions. Goodenow also went up to the podium and acted like a 2 year old who got his lollipop taken away, a real ADULT way to act in a major sports league.

Not ONCE did the PA explain why a cap wouldn't work
They wouldn't audit the NHL's books when asked to do so
They would not let the players take a vote on a proposal

Bettman wanted to bring the cap higher, the owners wouldn't let him...end of story

Hey dude, how about you adress what is being said, instead of what you imagine people are saying.

 

[richardn]

Same old rhetoric that the pro-PA crowd has been spewing this whole time. Their leader, Bob Goodenow embarassed himself in this negotiation because he thought he could get the owners to cave. He was wrong, and he will most likely IMO be fired for his actions. Goodenow also went up to the podium and acted like a 2 year old who got his lollipop taken away, a real ADULT way to act in a major sports league.

Not ONCE did the PA explain why a cap wouldn't work
They wouldn't audit the NHL's books when asked to do so
They would not let the players take a vote on a proposal

Bettman wanted to bring the cap higher, the owners wouldn't let him...end of story

Goodenow would have been fired back in september if he had reckomended for the players to take the leagues offer. I for no means support Goodnow and the way he negotiates. I just think Bettman is making it impossible for comprimise which is all the players truely want instead of insult.

 

[Chili]

I don't think the owners wanted to make a deal without linkage and yet they conceeded that in attempt to get a deal done. That was a significant attempt to get something done, imo.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Bettman agreed that they might have salvaged a season at 45 million.

Then why wasn't it offered.

He's the god damned Commissioner. The league's health is in his hands. It's his responsibility.

So what's stopping him from making an offer?

 

[GKJ]

Not ONCE did the PA explain why a cap wouldn't work

....


Bettman wanted to bring the cap higher, the owners wouldn't let him...end of story

1. Their belief was that it wouldn't set a fair market value for them (their words not mine). Their belief was that luxury taxes would increase revenue sharing to have the rich help the poor. They realized not one owner would be happy with that (regardless of it being fair or not). Agreeing to a cap they probably tried to break the owners because they knew that the owners were beginning to break the union.

2. I've said maybe things about Bettman being an idiot, but I have to beleive that he did everything he could do to get the cap number high enough. He very well could have said what I have been saying on these boards (no one is making you spend this much), but those comments don't matter if 8 owners keep saying they want a number top be 31 or 37 or 40 or whatever. It's probably why he never offers a salary floor.

 

[richardn]

Then why wasn't it offered.

He's the god damned Commissioner. The league's health is in his hands. It's his responsibility.

So what's stopping him from making an offer?

I think what happened is the players wanted to offer it but were to insulted to at the time and wanted Bettman to offer it being in all rights it was his turn to counter. By the time the players realised that Bettman was not going to budge it was to late.

 

[DownFromNJ]

I have to agree.

I've become convinced that the NHL had no intention of saving the season. The player's deal would have brought league salaries down to a manageable level and would prevent them from rising back up again too fast. It would allow teams to ice competitive rosters for a reasonable amount of money.

 

[GKJ]

Then why wasn't it offered.

He's the god damned Commissioner. The league's health is in his hands. It's his responsibility.

So what's stopping him from making an offer?

Jeremy Jacobs, Bill Wirtz, Harley Hotchkiss, Cal Nicholls, Peter Karmanos and everyone else on the gravy train of imbicles (Nashville, Florida....)

 

[DougKnowsBest]

i heard from somewhere yesterday that after bettman got the players letter saying they accepted a salary cap at 52 (or whatever it was) bettman went to the owners and send "I think I can get a deal at 47 mill cap". there were 6 hard line owners who said absolutly not 42 mill cap is to high already. I think busting the union is clearly on the adjenda of some of the owners.

 

[Vlad The Impaler]

I don't agree with all your premises, but I agree that something doesn't add up.

How do spend 150 days arguing for the neccessity of a cap, win the cap, and then cancel the season after only 24 hours of negotiating the numbers in the cap.
It seems to me that we would have had a deal with in 24-48 hours if the two sides were negotiating instead of firing off letters in the night.

Something doesn't add up.

It adds up fine for me. Goodenow is a rotten mother****er but his negociation tactics had worked marvelously well previously. He prides himself for ****ing thing up and hunting deals at the deadline.

In the past, his negociation partner was a dumb ***** with no appearance of a backbone whatsoever. So rotten Bob thought he would have his way once again and waited to the limit.

But that's it. At that point of the season, the deadline came and went. In fact, to tell you the truth, I think a season at that point looked like a parody anyway. Past January 15th, it just doesn't sound very serious.

In short, Goodenow's tactic (which was sound, because it has previously always worked for him) finally backfired in his little rat's face. By the time the NHLPA scums decided to accept a cap it was too late.

I am absolutely delighted by the result. It's going to be a long year but long term, this is going to be amazing for hockey.

 

[GKJ]

i heard from somewhere yesterday that after bettman got the players letter saying they accepted a salary cap at 52 (or whatever it was) bettman went to the owners and send "I think I can get a deal at 47 mill cap". there were 6 hard line owners who said absolutly not 42 mill cap is to high already. I think busting the union is clearly on the adjenda of some of the owners.

6 of them can say no if they want to. If they're the only 6 then that's tough ****.

 

[chiavsfan]

He's the commissioner, but he has to do what the OWNERS tell him to do.

As for the idiot who told me to comment on what is being said...and not what I believe is being said, I just put down three facts that PA people always forget. It takes two to make a deal, and NEITHER side did anything to help

 

[richardn]

i heard from somewhere yesterday that after bettman got the players letter saying they accepted a salary cap at 52 (or whatever it was) bettman went to the owners and send "I think I can get a deal at 47 mill cap". there were 6 hard line owners who said absolutly not 42 mill cap is to high already. I think busting the union is clearly on the adjenda of some of the owners.

This is exactly why I don't support the Owners. I mean they say they want a partnership but they won't be partners with each other. They seem to think that the only way to fix the league is to destroy the union not have a partnership with them. A partnership is about comprimise from both sides.

 

[Larionov]

Then why wasn't it offered.

He's the god damned Commissioner. The league's health is in his hands. It's his responsibility.

So what's stopping him from making an offer?

Gary Bettman does not have dictatorial powers within the NHL. Rather, he is an employee of the owners, and ultimately works for the Board of Governors. Anyone who has ever worked for an organization with a Board can tell you one thing -- if you get out too far ahead of your Board, or start ignoring their wishes, you might want to start checking out Workopolis while you are at it.

The Board of Governors obviously felt that they had gone as far as they could. They were almost certainly the ones who told Mr. Bettman to tender the take-it-or-leave-it offer. They are completely united on this one -- anytime you have a small market owner like Eugene Melnyk and a big market owner like Ed Snider speaking the same language, you know that there is complete resolve from the Board. (That would be the same Board that signs Gary Bettman's paycheques.)

 

[Nightslyr]

He then waits till the last second to take linkage off the table. So what does the PA do? The PA says ok, lets make a deal and offers a cap only to be rejected with a final offer thats insulting to the players after every thing they have concieded.

The players conceded (according to the Boston Globe) around $90M. The owners conceded around $325M. So, which side is evil again?

Bettman then waits to the press conmerence to say that he probably would have took 45 million cap, but yet he didn't offer it when the NHLPA made their counter of 49.

He probably would have accepted it. 8 team owners, on the other hand, probably wouldn't.

Instead he sent Goodnow a letter saying that their cap puts the league payroll at 75% of league revenues and that they had to 11 am to accept the offer . If anyone actually believes this they are not all there. Let me get this straight all 30 teams are going to all of a sudden go to the cap max. The fact is 9 teams tops would be at the cap max. How many people think the teams with 20 something payrolls are going to all of a sudden say lets make our payroll 49 Million.

So you just proved that the cap system the PA offered was a joke. Congratulations. A cap system is supposed to give the poorer teams a more even playing field. If the cap system offered doesn't positively affect those poorer teams, then why offer it? Especially when (like with the PA's offer) the salary minimum is raised to be nearly what the poorer teams are currently spending (like Minnesota, Nashville, and Atlanta)? Also, the league's concern with the figure was also based on the potential the cap system could create. Of course not all teams would spend close to the cap number (whatever it is) at the beginning. However, when parity starts to take hold a few years down the road, it's safe to believe that the majority of the teams will begin to get closer and closer to the cap number (just like in the NFL). CBAs aren't supposed to be a band-aid, they're supposed to be the framework of the product for about a decade. Given the NHL's constant decline in popularity, it's rather crappy TV deal with NBC, and cancelled games, why does it make sense to have such a high cap number? The market has shrunk.

My take is Gary Bettman knew that he had the players by the balls when they offered the cap. He purposely went out of his way to piss off the players by slapping them in the face with his final offer, knowing full well the players would not accept his final offer. Bettman really wanted to cancel the season so he could use it for leverage.

Which is why the owners offered to share playoff revenue with the players this year...

I mean with no season now and all offers off the table. Bettman can crush the union now which is starting to give signs of being divided. He knows that by cancelling the season he has a great shot at getting his triple cap at 30 and change. Thus giving everyone an oscar speech on how sorry he is that he has no choice but to cancel the season. If Gary had any intentions on saving the season he would have swallowed his pride and got on the phone and said Bob how about 45. Where do we go from here know. If we don't have hockey come september and I don't count scabs as NHL hockey, I don't know if the NHL would be able to survive a work stopage of two full seasons, which is where this appears to be going.

Yeah, because the players are entirely blameless.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

Jeremy Jacobs, Bill Wirtz, Harley Hotchkiss, Cal Nicholls, Peter Karmanos and everyone else on the gravy train of imbicles (Nashville, Florida....)

Wirtz, Jacobs and Karmanos have no business telling anyone what's best for the league.
Wirtz has run an Original 6 franchise into the ground.
Jacobs lets bill Guerin and Jason Allison go, but he's willing to pay big buck to Marty Lapointe.
Karmanos moves a team to Carolina, and offers the most inflationary RFA contract in league history.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

It adds up fine for me. Goodenow is a rotten mother****er but his negociation tactics had worked marvelously well previously. He prides himself for ****ing thing up and hunting deals at the deadline.

In the past, his negociation partner was a dumb ***** with no appearance of a backbone whatsoever. So rotten Bob thought he would have his way once again and waited to the limit.

But that's it. At that point of the season, the deadline came and went. In fact, to tell you the truth, I think a season at that point looked like a parody anyway. Past January 15th, it just doesn't sound very serious.

In short, Goodenow's tactic (which was sound, because it has previously always worked for him) finally backfired in his little rat's face. By the time the NHLPA scums decided to accept a cap it was too late.

I am absolutely delighted by the result. It's going to be a long year but long term, this is going to be amazing for hockey.

I remember when you were one of the most respected posters at Hockeysfuture.

 

[A Good Flying Bird*]

He's the commissioner, but he has to do what the OWNERS tell him to do.

As for the idiot who told me to comment on what is being said...and not what I believe is being said, I just put down three facts that PA people always forget. It takes two to make a deal, and NEITHER side did anything to help

That would be just fine, if Bettman wasn't quoted as saying he thought he could salvage the season at $45 Million.

 

[officeglen]

If the NHLPA had made a reasonable counteroffer, and it had been rejected, I could believe the "NHL didn't want to make a deal" theory. However the NHLPA counteroffers were configured for automatic rejection, and were playing hardball in attempt to get the NHL to move some more. That strategy not only didn't work, but it backfired so much the NHLPA has now completely lost the public relations battle, to the point that the NHL can ice replacement players whenever/whereever legally possible and fully expect the support of most fans, assuming, of course, proper pricing and marketing.

 

[LazRNN]

Same old rhetoric that the pro-PA crowd has been spewing this whole time. Their leader, Bob Goodenow embarassed himself in this negotiation because he thought he could get the owners to cave. He was wrong, and he will most likely IMO be fired for his actions. Goodenow also went up to the podium and acted like a 2 year old who got his lollipop taken away, a real ADULT way to act in a major sports league.

Not ONCE did the PA explain why a cap wouldn't work
They wouldn't audit the NHL's books when asked to do so
They would not let the players take a vote on a proposal

Bettman wanted to bring the cap higher, the owners wouldn't let him...end of story

Nope. Sorry. Just because the PA made big mistakes and should get a lot of the blame for what has happened, it doesn’t mean that it’s all daffodils and daisies on the other end, contrary to the opinion of those who are three times as pro-owner as they are pro-hockey. If it wasn’t Bettman who wanted the season cancelled so they could enforce their dream CBA via impasse, he still has to bear the responsibility of it because he did the bidding of the owners. All you need to do is take an honest and clear headed look at the rhetoric going back and forth, repressing the desire to mentally don pitchforks and horns on the players, and it’s obvious that the NHL only made offers to the PA that they knew they would not accept. They only made offers that took deliberate stabs at the megalomaniacal egos of the PA leaders. How did they know that the PA would never swallow their own pride and cave into everything the NHL demanded? All they had to do is look at their own megalomaniacal egos in the mirror. A deal was less than a few million dollars per team away, (and we all know only a few teams would have covered that difference) but they wouldn’t do a deal. It wasn’t in the plan.

 

[chiavsfan]

That would be just fine, if Bettman wasn't quoted as saying he thought he could salvage the season at $45 Million.

BETTMAN would have, the OWNERS wouldn't