Hugh Jessimen Vs. Lee Stempniak

Discussion in 'NHL Draft - Prospects' started by guitaraholic*, Oct 4, 2004.

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  1. I was going to make this a poll, but it would be incredibly lopsided as we'd all vote based on hype and reputation and Jessimen clearly has Lee Stempniak, an incredibly obscure Blues prospect (have *you* ever heard of him?) an overwhelming lead. But I'm curious as to who is now the better player and therefore who is the better prospect and why that is? First let's hear from the coach of BOTH players:

    "He’s the best player in our league (ECAC),” said coach Gaudet of Stempniak.

    (taken from http://www.hockeysfuture.com/article.php?sid=7233&mode=threaded&order=0 )

    Stempniak is only a year older (a Sr. to Jessimen's Jr status) and has apparently improved as a prospect since he's been at school and has steadily gotten better and become a more dominant player. Apparently this hasn't been the case with Jessimen who nonetheless is still regarded as the "better" prospect even though there's a negligable age difference and both players coach says Stemp is the better of the two players.
    Either way it would appear as though most people, based on what Stempniak has accomplished in college, would include him as a potential top 9 forward (a solid 3rd liner is a modest and probably attainable level for Lee) or perhaps, if he continued to excel, a potential top 6. Yet the powers that be at Hockeysfuture didn't even factor him into their evaluation of the Blues forwards and yet jessimen, a lesser player by their coaches own admittance, is considered a TOP prospect and helps the Rangers elevated ranking at this site. I point this out not out of homerish tendencies because all teams have underrated, undervalued prospects, but because I'd primarily like to hear from those who have seen both guys play why Jessimen is considered the better prospect when it's Stempniak who is better now and is the one (apparently) improving and not regressing, as Jessimen perhaps did.
    And yeah, the Blues are rated to low.
     
    Last edited by moderator : Oct 4, 2004
  2. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    I'll get to watch Dartmouth later this month on the 30th, I can tape it if you want to see who's better in one game of the season.

    Stempniak seems to have really improved his game, although I don't think I would call him the best player in the ECAC, but I don't know if he means last year (which he wasn't imo, as Danis or Vesce would get my vote) or if he means this year, and since this year hasn't started I couldn't say who is the best player in the ECAC. Moulson will likely have a big year, and I like Jon Smyth from Colgate a lot and hope the Habs try and sign him after this season is over.

    Jessiman seems to have a game that will translate to the NHL easier, but to be honest I only became a Dartmouth fan this summer when the Habs drafted JT Wyman. I will see them play this year though and the big green could end up being the top team in the ECAC, although I hope it's the big red instead! ;)
     
  3. I and every other Blues fan on the site would appreciate your feedback regarding Lee's abilities and his chances of playing at the NHL level. Again, I've heard several people who follow the NCAA closely say very positive things about Stempniak but he remains an incredibly obscure prospects for the the Blues, a team loaded with incredibly obscure prospects who still have good reputations (Zack Fitzgerald, Victor Alexandrov, David Backes, Kostya Barulin, Alex Shkotov, etc) nonetheless. Again, any feedback from those who have seen them play is appreciated. I understand your point about a prospects game 'translating' better to the NHL level but that's usually a size and speed issue and Stempniak, although lacking Jessiman's massive size, is not small and he's apparently an excellent skater so his skating won't hold him back... again, if the guys coach says in an article pubished at this very site that Stempniak as the best player in the league and that league includes Jessimen, obviously, then one can logically infer that Stemp is a better player than Jessimen with no apparent flaws that would preven his game from translating to the NHL level. Ergo he should be at LEAST on par with Jessimen as far as his prospect ranking is concerned, right?
     
  4. montreal

    montreal Go Habs Go

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    Well you have Stemniak's game on the rise, and Jessiman's game hasn't risen from what I understand. While I am mostly an ECAC fan, I can't say I have paid a lot of attention to either until this year. If you want to compare them against one another, I would ask if you could have one or the other which one would it be? Most will pick Jessiman cause the size and the fact he's more well known. I don't have enough knowledge of seeing them both play yet so I can't say.

    I will pass along what I see on the game later this month.
     
  5. Captain Conservative

    Captain Conservative Registered User

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    No. Jessiman is ginormous. Bigger player take longer to get their game together because they're getting used to their body. I know little about Stempniak, but he has smaller then average NHL size. Also, he has a year on Jessiman which is important considering how young they both are. Jessiman is a top 25 or 30 prospect, so its not an insult to say that he is a better *prospect* than Stempniak. It looks like Stempniak is pretty far down the Blues prospect list, so it says a lot about yer depth to have him where he is.
     
  6. Hunter Gathers

    Hunter Gathers White guilt milquetoast piece of human garbage. Sponsor

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    Stemp and Jessiman are both great prospects. Stemp is clearly a steal.

    I had the opportunity to watch them play a few times last year and, well, Jessiman was double and tripple teamed the for 90% of the games. Double and triple teamed. That always meant someone was open and every player that played with Jessiman was able to benefit from this.

    I don't know if Lee was his regular linemate, but he did see some time with him (from the games I saw) and was always shifty and such and able to pop one in with less pressure on him.

    Jessiman has much higher potential (as I see Lee as more of a two-way 2nd/3rd liner) as a 1st line powerforward if he pans out as planned.

    But they are both great prospects. None the less.
     
  7. Hunter Gathers

    Hunter Gathers White guilt milquetoast piece of human garbage. Sponsor

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    He's not the "better" player. He's not even really more complete (his defense is a bit better than Jessiman, as he comes back more, but his strength isn't as close as Hugh's).

    He's just performing a bit better since he's never the one double or triple teamed during the Dartmouth games. Not taking away anything from him, as Stemp is a huge steal where he was picked. I've seen them both play last year and the year before, and they are both damn good players. Potential wise, it's Jessiman by a land slide and I don't think that's arguable.

    Better player now? I really don't know. I think they're on an even keel.
     
  8. I'd appreciate your feedback after you get to see them both play. I'm just curious as to why one player, who by his coaches admittance is a lesser player, is so highly regarded while another isn't even on the radar of prospects and yet is apparently the better player. I just find it odd, that's all. Ultimately, time will tell. Again, thanks for your feedback.
     
  9. I never said Lee was a better player, their coach did. Read the article.
     
  10. Prucha73

    Prucha73 Guest

    I think right now or last season Stempniak is a better player, but Jessiman has more potential.
     
  11. Kubera55

    Kubera55 Registered User

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    I haven't seen Dartmouth play, but I do have a suggested interpretation:

    Couldn't scouts (and HF) be assuming that Jessiman's play and presence is responsible for a fair amount of Stempeniak production?

    Consider: In Stempeniak's rookie season he scored .66 PPG. The next year Jessiman arrives and several top scorer's graduate.

    Stempeniak's PPG skyrockets to 1.44 PPG with mammoth Hugh on the team (Jessiman racked up 1.38 PPG as a rookie, with more goals than Lee).

    The next season Stempeniak and Jessiman BOTH regress, perhaps in part because Dartmouth begins moving Jessiman around the line-up. Stempeniak scores 1.12 PPG and Jessiman drops all the way to .97 PPG.

    Couldn't one fairly logical interpretation of this data be that Stempeniak isn't much without Jessiman around? Pre-Jessiman Stempeniak wasn't doing much, and when Jessiman wilted as a sophmore, Stempeniak wilted right along with him.

    As for the coaches comment about 'best player' I really think it's meaningless. Every year the Hobey Baker award gets handed out to the 'Best Player in College Hockey,' who typically never even develops into a decent NHL player. The fact that Stempeniak had one moderatly better season of productivity than Jessiman (and he was a year older) does not the better, or even equal, prospect make.

    Heck, Tomas Pock was a Hobey Baker candidate as a senior and led his team in scoring. He substantially outscored such blue-chipper NCAA defensemen as Sutter and Whitney. Does that make him a better prospect? Not bloody likely.

    Still, Stemp's production and even HF rating of him (a 6.0) should probably have him on the list of Blue's top 20... especially if HF believes their overall farm system is #21. The Rangers, for example, have the very raw (and equally rated) Marcus Jonasen at No.15 on their list, and the Rangers farm system's depth is it's best feature.

    But most of HF's organizational rankings seem a little voodoo to me anyways, so who knows why . . .
     
  12. I've never seen either play so you and I are in the same boat. Again, I am asking questions, not providing answers. I am also NOT predicating the assertion that Lee is a 'better' player on stats, as you are doing with Pock. I am basing it on the verbatim quote from Lee and Hugh's coach who, in plain english for all to read and understand, called Lee the better player. In fact, he called Stemp the "BEST" player in the league. If the Blues are so poorly ranked (20 something) and yet they have Stempniak, the BEST player in a league that includes Jessimen, among others, and a kid has been called a "steal" and a "hidden gem" from various scouts and others, then either the Blues organization depth is simply tremendous and unacknowledged by the kids at hockeysfuture or these organizational rankings are simply meaningless. Or both.
     
  13. Prucha73

    Prucha73 Guest


    coaches can be biased, and coaches can be plain dumb as well.
     
  14. again, all I'm asking is for a bit of consistency from the powers that be at this site and, more importantly, what I'm really curious about is anyone with FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE of these players to offer their opinions. If you haven't seen them, then I don't really care what your opinion is and I don't care for whatever speculation you put forth in regards to whose stats indicate what. I am seeking first hand evaluations, nothing else. It is appreciated.
     
  15. Slats432

    Slats432 Registered User

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    What exactly are you asking for here? I will only post in this thread this once, because as exhibited by debates with fans of other teams that have vocal fans about their rankings, there is no way for me to provide you with an answer other than "You are right, the Blues were inaccuately ranked." is going to suffice. I have seen your posts on your board, and how can someone reply to someone who refers to a group of writers that are in their late 20s and mid 30s as kids?

    What should I say to you? Without being insulting.

    You want to debate Stempniak and Jessiman? You might be right. Stempniak might be better than Jessiman. Personally given the choice of one of the two for an NHL player, I still pick Jessiman. In their draft year every NHL team thought the same. Another thing to consider was that with so many scouts watching the two of them in their draft year, why was it that caused Stempniak to drop to the fifth round? I honestly don't know. (And personally I only saw them in one game and neither was anything superb in that game.) So what? Let's say that Stempniak is better than Jessiman....Stempniak being a good prospect makes the Blues underrated? How about the off year by Stempniak?(And Jessiman) What about the fact that Sejna didn't make the impact it was expected he would?(Your best prospect is a 25 year old player that has yet to make an NHL impact...what exactly does that say about your prospect pool?) What about hanging your hopes on a 5'10 185lb center? How about hanging your hopes on a guy that didn't score a point a game in the CHL? How about hanging your hopes on a goalie that just came to the CHL for his first year and looked good but not a world beater in the World Juniors? They are good prospects, but for my money, raising my eyes one spot in the rankings is all you would need to know. I would take Jeff Carter over any forward on the Blues, and the same could be said for Mike Richards. Antero Niitymaki is as good or better than any Blues goalie, and your defense isn't anything to write home about.(Or do you want to talk about your best defensive prospect that was in the ECHL last year?)

    The Blues have some decent prospects and some nice pieces that should turn out to be NHL players. I am only pointing out deficiencies of the Blues prospects because as fans, they get blinded by their hope for a player to turn out and support them in any way. That isn't bad, but it isn't objective either.

    But to continually go off that "WE GOT SCREWED" seems a little homerist and isn't a good place to start a decent discussion.

    You want someone off the Committee to come here and validate you or your concerns, but that isn't going to happen. The Rankings are in, they are what they are, and I suggest you move on.(Because they aren't going to change, and you aren't going to convince anyone on the Staff with your diatribe that the rankings are wrong.)

    How about accepting that you disagree with the Organizational Rankings until the Blues prospects prove the Rankings wrong?

    Like I said, my involvement in your thread is limited to this one post, but hopefully you can cheer for your team and their prospects and hopefully through development, improvement and good drafting your team can climb the rankings.
     
  16. there are SO MANY things wrong with your post that I find it hard to know where to begin, but seeing as how you're a Mod and I'm going to get nowhere with you w/out you becoming offended I won't even try. If you follow the thread closely you will see that I am simply asking for opinions from those WHO HAVE SEEN BOTH PLAYERS PLAY. Have you seen both players play, Mr. Bachul? No? Okay, then thanks for your reply, it's appreciated. I'm sorry if you missed the point of the thread, which by proxy definately questioned the rankings you hold so dear, but that again was not the point, merely a by-product of the question itself. If that is somehow threatening to you, I'm sorry, I don't mean it to be.
    If you care to offer your opinion on the players in question based on having seen both players play, great. If not... why were you replying?
     
  17. Chief

    Chief Registered User

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    guitaraholic: You asked the question but ignored the answer. Stempniak might be the better player, right now, in college, but Jessiman is the better NHL prospect. And there is nothing contradictory about those two statements. The fact that Dartmouth's coach calls Stempniak the better player (right now) does not mean he is the better prospect. As far as I'm concerned it's Jessiman's skillset combined with his size which makes him the better prospect.

    FYI - If you pick up the latest THN (their college preview issue), they feature Stempniak as their Hobey Baker candidate from the ECAC. They also pick Dartmouth as the top ECAC team.
     
  18. Kubera55

    Kubera55 Registered User

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    I wasn't *at least solely* basing my evaluation of Pock on stats. He was a Hobey Baker candidate and one of the best defenseman in college hockey. This despite only playing two years as a defenseman. Suter, Thelen, and a host of other elite college defensive prospects didn't have the year that Pock did. But that's the thing, college and the pros are not the same thing.

    In college, indeed in the ECAC, Dominic Moore could score 1.50 PPG as a senior. More than Stempeniak OR Jessiman. Of course, that prowess didn't get him to 20 AHL goals last year.

    Still, given HF's own ranking of Stemp (a 6) it's surprising he doesn't appear on the blues top 20. However, even with him, I struggle to see how the Blues could be ranked substantially higher. Another forward with 'depth potential' is not an elite farm system.
     
  19. Brock

    Brock Registered User

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    Chief you hit the nail on the head with that one.

    The reality is that there is a difference between player and prospect.

    Just because a guy is a solid junior player, that does not make him a solid NHL prospect.

    You must first distinguish the difference between player and prospect before you can understand or criticize people in this thread guitaraholic.

    Just because the coach of Dartmouth is saying that Stempniak is a better NCAA player then Jessiman, doesnt mean he is a better NHL prospect.

    There are many cases of this throughout the past and present.

    Past:
    Dan Tessier is probably one of the best OHL players I've ever personally watched. He represented the heart and soul of the Ottawa 67's during the late 1990's. He was never much of an NHL prospect, but that didn't mean he wasn't one of the best players in the OHL. Lets take a look at the 1998-99 team which featured Tessier as the main offensive cork for Kilrea's crew, as well as top NHL prospect and top 10 selection Mark Bell. If you were to have asked Coach Kilrea who the better player was for his hockey club, Tessier would have been the easy answer. Bell of course was no question the better NHL prospect, but that didn't make him the better player for the 67's.

    Present:
    Again with the OHL (because it's what I'm most familiar with), Corey Locke was the best player in the OHL last year. But was he the best NHL prospect? Definitely not, not even close in fact.

    It takes more then just being a solid junior player, or hell even a great junior player to play in the NHL, or to achieve high status as a prospect. You have to present NHL scouts with intanigbles that they believe will translate the best to the NHL level of play. Why do you think we have so many players who bust at the NHL level? Because those players skills don't translate effectively to the faster and stronger NHL game.

    So guitaraholic, the reality is that Stempniak may very well be the better NCAA player over Hugh Jessiman. But that definitely does not make him the better NHL prospect.
     
  20. I am completely aware that simply because he is a better player than Jessimen, according to someone who would know better than you or me, that it doesn't make him a better prospect. I do not fail to understand that very simple point, thanks. I again ask, as was the point of this thread, for a comparison of the two players by people who have seen them play. Have you seen them play? If not, again, your contribution to the original point of this thread is negligable.
    By the way, how old is Pock in comparison to Suter? Stempniak in comparison to Jessimen? thx.
     
  21. Brock

    Brock Registered User

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    Was it not you who said this earlier in the thread?

    Judging by your reaction there, you seem to be inferring that you believe Stempniak is a better prospect because his coach is saying he is a better player then Jessiman.

    That also seems to be the general point of the thread, seing as you reply to everyone who says that Jessiman is the better prospect, in a negative demenor.
     
  22. Hunter Gathers

    Hunter Gathers White guilt milquetoast piece of human garbage. Sponsor

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    And I never said that you said he was. Read my post.
     
  23. Hunter Gathers

    Hunter Gathers White guilt milquetoast piece of human garbage. Sponsor

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    And I'm giving you first hand knowledge since I've seen them both play a few times. Yet you completely ignored my post.

    What more do you want me to say to you, really?
     
  24. I am simply sick of people making assertions about players they've never seen. In short then I guess I'm sick of a lot of what goes on here at hfboards even though I personally love it here. Why can't you folks just admit you, like every other scout, GM, fan, etc., have absolutely zero idea where a VAST VAST majority of these kids are going to develo into?
    I believe Stempniak to be the better player, as that is what his coach said. I am asking for people's opinions, WHO HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THEM PLAY. Why are you folks so offended and upset by that idea? I've clearly hit a sore spot here at hfboards on this topic as you folks get so touchy when someone (correctly) points out that seeing as how most of us have never seen a vast majority of these kids play, our opinions are of no meaning whatsoever and, if we even thought about it for a minute, we'd not allow ourselves to develop opinions until we see them play. Yes, this is asking a lot... anyway, this is comical and meaningless and I'm wasting my time, alas. I simply wanted someone who has seen both of them play to offer their INFORMED opinion. What I got and continue to get are responses from people who wouldn't recognize Lee Stempniak if he bit them. Gee, that's ssoooooooo helpful..... typical, really, and I should have expected it. I've posted here for years, nothing much has changed.
     
  25. Hunter Gathers

    Hunter Gathers White guilt milquetoast piece of human garbage. Sponsor

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    You believe he is better without ever seeing him.

    So why are you bashing other people for believing scouts and such who passed over Stemp till the 5th round?

    Pretty hypocritical if you ask me.

    I've given you first hand info and you've still yet to address it, yet you attack other people who give you opinions the same as yours - without viewing them.
     
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