Post-Game Talk: Huge comeback win! Jets 4-3

[Whileee]

Hellebuyck's save of the night vs the Caps came in the first period when we were killing a penalty and Myers decided that it was a good idea to join the rush at 4 vs 5, which of course ended up going the other way on a 2 on 1.

How do we distinguish between Myers' hardworking team-first pinches and Buff's selfish lazy pinches? Is there some code we have to crack to figure it out?

Myers is the player that people who don't know what they are watching actually think Buff is.

The solution for Myers' goof-ups is not Buff playing a casual / lazy style. I'll spell it out - it's easier to get the rest of the team to buy in to an intense, hardworking style when your top players play that way.

By the way, I've liked Buff's play lately, and I've been unimpressed by Myers for he past few games.

 

[Gm0ney]

That's how you force your way into a stacked lineup, play 'fine'

Saying Petan sucked was dumb of me. I don't think he sucked, I just feel like he didn't drive anything really or make a case for himself. When Connor and Roslovic got their chances they really made something happen for themselves.

If we ever get healthy again there will be no debate, Petan will easily be sent down, and that's on him.

I won't talk about Myers because I know there are several people here who really dislike his game, and that's fine.

Well, come on...there's some context here. I mean, I don't know what more you can expect from a guy who plays 9 minutes total, starts the game on the 4th line, plays 5 shifts there and then gets thrown into the blender for his final 5 shifts (after Hendricks got hurt) with ever-changing linemates. Fine is pretty good under those circumstances. Where exactly was Petan's chance to make something happen for himself?

Meanwhile, after Hendricks' injury, Roslovic was put out there with Perreault and Little for 8 shifts...parachuted into 2/3rds of a line that's been crushing it for the past month. So you can see how he might have had many more and better opportunites to make something happen for himself compared to Petan.

 

[ps241]

I agree with the last line and I feel like Kulikov suits Myers better too. I just don't think we want Morrissey dragging Chia around the ice and I don't think Chiarot and Enstrom play well together either.

I really like our pairs when we are healthy back there but that doesn't happen often enough. I really hope the rumors are true about the Jets picking up some top 4 depth for the run. I know people like Poolman here but I don't want to rush him, his development seems to be tracking pretty well

For the record, I think you will agree that I have been pretty fair with Buff this year. I guess from my perspective I am willing to give a guy who tries hard and is a team first guy more latitude if he is messing up due to lack of ability or confidence over a guy who I think is playing in a selfish manner. Probably comes from the fact I am not a natural talent, I had to work REALLY hard to get decent at hockey and I have always struggled with the mental aspect of the game.

Yea you have been more than fair with Buff and always point out when you like his game. I am in the same boat as you when it comes to our D core I like them when they are all healthy and I love them when they are all healthy and Trouba is playing like he did in the last 10-15 games before his really f***ing unfortunate late high ankle sprain in OT. I would like a quality depth D piece though for our playoff run because very few teams have fully healthy D core and I would like a quality asset to be their when the injuries do occur.

We shall see how it all plays out. In the past at times I thought I new a few things about Chevy but then he will throw me off with moves like drafting Morrissey when I thought they had a size bias.......firing Noel mid season .....the Kane blockbuster.......buying out Stu....stepping up and paying full price for Kuli and Mason and honestly the unknown of the Trouba situation and how he is slow playing it. Not that I play poker but if I did I wouldn't want to play against him.

 

[Jet]

Well, come on...there's some context here. I mean, I don't know what more you can expect from a guy who plays 9 minutes total, starts the game on the 4th line, plays 5 shifts there and then gets thrown into the blender for his final 5 shifts (after Hendricks got hurt) with ever-changing linemates. Fine is pretty good under those circumstances. Where exactly was Petan's chance to make something happen for himself?

Meanwhile, after Hendricks' injury, Roslovic was put out there with Perreault and Little for 8 shifts...parachuted into 2/3rds of a line that's been crushing it for the past month. So you can see how he might have had many more and better opportunites to make something happen for himself compared to Petan.

I suppose in isolation you might have a case, but, Petan, much like Dano, has had many opportunities to make a name for himself and hasn't grasped it. It's not a one game thing. Meanwhile, Roslovic has, outside of a few isolated incidents consistently shown that he can impact the game at this level.

Connor didn't in his first opportunities, and got sent down, but the latest chance he got he made the most of it. Petan and Dano are becoming the 'elder statesmen' of prospects and are running out of chances, here. That is not to say they won't find success in the NHL, but I doubt it will be on a Jets team that has a lot of depth and believes in roster balance (thank god)

 

[Blue Shakehead]

The solution for Myers' goof-ups is not Buff playing a casual / lazy style. I'll spell it out - it's easier to get the rest of the team to buy in to an intense, hardworking style when your top players play that way.

By the way, I've liked Buff's play lately, and I've been unimpressed by Myers for he past few games.

Why do we call Myer's offensive zone pinches that cost us "goof-ups" but Buff's same exact plays are "selfish/lazy". For the most part, Buff's most glaring errors this year have been at 3 v 3 when he's double shifted or out there for 2 minutes. You know who else is gets double shifted and is often gassed/dogging it at 3 v 3? Blake Wheeler. He never gets off the ice. But in his case, its never selfishness or laziness. He's just tired while Buff is casual and lazy?

Myers only makes 50% of passes of the D zone. Coughs it up 15% of the time. Other 35% result in loss of possession or extended shifts in our zone trying to get it out. His 15% cough up rate are "goof ups".

Buff makes 95% of passes/clears out of the zone, but whiffs on 5%. Those 5% are "casual/lazy"?

If anything is lazy, its the Bad Buff myth.

 

[Whileee]

Why do we call Myer's offensive zone pinches that cost us "goof-ups" but Buff's same exact plays are "selfish/lazy". For the most part, Buff's most glaring errors this year have been at 3 v 3 when he's double shifted or out there for 2 minutes. You know who else is gets double shifted and is often gassed/dogging it at 3 v 3? Blake Wheeler. He never gets off the ice. But in his case, its never selfishness or laziness. He's just tired while Buff is casual and lazy?

Myers only makes 50% of passes of the D zone. Coughs it up 15% of the time. Other 35% result in loss of possession or extended shifts in our zone trying to get it out. His 15% cough up rate are "goof ups".

Buff makes 95% of passes/clears out of the zone, but whiffs on 5%. Those 5% are casual/lazy?

If anything is lazy, its the Bad Buff myth.

I think Buff can be casual and careless, and sometimes selfish. Maybe that's better than "lazy", which I agree might be the wrong description for him.

I think Myers is more often clueless, and slow-thinking. That's different. The result isn't better, but that's not what I'm getting at.

I actually think that Wheeler is selfish when he stays on for too long a shift. I've posted that plenty of times.

My point is that the leaders on the team need to lead by example in how they play, not just by results. That's because I believe that there is a social dynamic in teams that affects things like work ethic and discipline, etc. You and others might disagree.

 

[Whileee]

Well, come on...there's some context here. I mean, I don't know what more you can expect from a guy who plays 9 minutes total, starts the game on the 4th line, plays 5 shifts there and then gets thrown into the blender for his final 5 shifts (after Hendricks got hurt) with ever-changing linemates. Fine is pretty good under those circumstances. Where exactly was Petan's chance to make something happen for himself?

Meanwhile, after Hendricks' injury, Roslovic was put out there with Perreault and Little for 8 shifts...parachuted into 2/3rds of a line that's been crushing it for the past month. So you can see how he might have had many more and better opportunites to make something happen for himself compared to Petan.

When you've watched the recent games, do you think that Petan has looked to be as good or effective as Roslovic?

 

[Gm0ney]

I suppose in isolation you might have a case, but, Petan, much like Dano, has had many opportunities to make a name for himself and hasn't grasped it. It's not a one game thing. Meanwhile, Roslovic has, outside of a few isolated incidents consistently shown that he can impact the game at this level.

Connor didn't in his first opportunities, and got sent down, but the latest chance he got he made the most of it. Petan and Dano are becoming the 'elder statesmen' of prospects and are running out of chances, here. That is not to say they won't find success in the NHL, but I doubt it will be on a Jets team that has a lot of depth and believes in roster balance (thank god)

That game was a microcosm of Petan's career to date. He gets shuffled around on the bottom 6 and doesn't produce or blow anyone's mind and, welp, I guess he "sucks" to a lot of keen eye tests.

Speaking of Kyle Connor...do you recall any difference in Connor's deployment before he was sent down to the Moose and then after he was called back up? Any contextual information that might give us a clue as to why he was "not ready" in October and "budding superstar" in November?

 

[pucka lucka]

When you've watched the recent games, do you think that Petan has looked to be as good or effective as Roslovic?

When Petan gets to play on the 1PP and gets a few games in the top 6 ask that again. Petan has been better when playing with scrubs. He drove the line with Lemieux & Dano. If Dano had buried half his chances and/or Petan got those minutes on the PP, he would have more points than Roslovic. Petan has a superior hockey IQ to most on the team. He's not huge or exceptionally fast so he's never going to shine with shit players. How many points did Roslo score on the 4th line?

 

[Jet]

Why do we call Myer's offensive zone pinches that cost us "goof-ups" but Buff's same exact plays are "selfish/lazy". For the most part, Buff's most glaring errors this year have been at 3 v 3 when he's double shifted or out there for 2 minutes. You know who else is gets double shifted and is often gassed/dogging it at 3 v 3? Blake Wheeler. He never gets off the ice. But in his case, its never selfishness or laziness. He's just tired while Buff is casual and lazy?

Myers only makes 50% of passes of the D zone. Coughs it up 15% of the time. Other 35% result in loss of possession or extended shifts in our zone trying to get it out. His 15% cough up rate are "goof ups".

Buff makes 95% of passes/clears out of the zone, but whiffs on 5%. Those 5% are "casual/lazy"?

If anything is lazy, its the Bad Buff myth.

Lazy is when he doesn't bust his ass after a turnover or isn't physical or grinding enough in his own zone. I actually place a lot of the blame of that on the coaching staff playing him too much (and we've seen that has disappeared mostly with less minutes, though I still think Buff is weaker than a man his size should be in front of his net and along the back boards).

The selfish play is the part that really annoys me, and thankfully that has diminished quite a bit as well.

 

[Aavco Cup]

Lazy is when he doesn't bust his ass after a turnover or isn't physical or grinding enough in his own zone. I actually place a lot of the blame of that on the coaching staff playing him too much (and we've seen that has disappeared mostly with less minutes, though I still think Buff is weaker than a man his size should be in front of his net and along the back boards).

The selfish play is the part that really annoys me, and thankfully that has diminished quite a bit as well.

Some of those so called lazy plays were early in the season when he had his groin issue and couldn't accelerate well.

 

[garret9]

Sure, but when a "9" player is dogging it and everyone knows that, it kinda bums out the whole team. Know what I mean?

Hence some credence.
It has an impact, but for 90% of the time... You get paid for what you do. You win based off what you do. You get ice time based of what you do.

The decisions made by decision makers clearly have shown that it's what you do that matters most of all.

 

[Bartho]

I'm late to the party, but that was one hell of a comeback! I have a couple of young kids so if I'm not in the arena, I watch the games on the PVR after they're in bed. I cheered so hard when Scheifele tied it that I woke my daughter up.

Why do we call Myer's offensive zone pinches that cost us "goof-ups" but Buff's same exact plays are "selfish/lazy". For the most part, Buff's most glaring errors this year have been at 3 v 3 when he's double shifted or out there for 2 minutes. You know who else is gets double shifted and is often gassed/dogging it at 3 v 3? Blake Wheeler. He never gets off the ice. But in his case, its never selfishness or laziness. He's just tired while Buff is casual and lazy?

Myers only makes 50% of passes of the D zone. Coughs it up 15% of the time. Other 35% result in loss of possession or extended shifts in our zone trying to get it out. His 15% cough up rate are "goof ups".

Buff makes 95% of passes/clears out of the zone, but whiffs on 5%. Those 5% are "casual/lazy"?

If anything is lazy, its the Bad Buff myth.

Is there really that much of an anti-Buff contingent here? Seems like it's only a handful of regulars + some posters that hadn't watched a single Jets game before Laine was drafted.

 

[garret9]

Some of those so called lazy plays were early in the season when he had his groin issue and couldn't accelerate well.

Some of it is that Myers is just not that good. He's not bad, and he's amazing to have as the 3rd guy after Trouba and Buff... but without those two in front his limitedness gets exposed.

 

[Whileee]

Hence some credence.
It has an impact, but for 90% of the time... You get paid for what you do. You win based off what you do. You get ice time based of what you do.

The decisions made by decision makers clearly have shown that it's what you do that matters most of all.

What you do in an organization (or hockey team) can affect what other players do, and what the team does collectively. I'm a stats sort of guy, but I think team performance is partly a social dynamic because the performance and attitude of some players affects the performance and attitude of other players.

 

[Jet]

That game was a microcosm of Petan's career to date. He gets shuffled around on the bottom 6 and doesn't produce or blow anyone's mind and, welp, I guess he "sucks" to a lot of keen eye tests.

Speaking of Kyle Connor...do you recall any difference in Connor's deployment before he was sent down to the Moose and then after he was called back up? Any contextual information that might give us a clue as to why he was "not ready" in October and "budding superstar" in November?

I understand the case you are trying to make, but I disagree with it. To think somehow that one player is being held to a different standard is not logical. You know the org wants all of their prospects to succeed, whether it's for our use or to parlay into another player, prospect, or pick.

I am going to venture a guess that guys like Roslovic and Connor have impressed the organization more in the following areas:

• Play in the AHL
• Play in the NHL
• Adaptability of play style and role, ability to play with a wide range of other player skills and types
• Attitude
• Work ethic
• Practice
• Professionalism.

Unfortunately we are not intimately aware of these things. Simplistically speaking, I have noticed with my imperfect eye Roslo and Connor doing more with whatever they've been given than Petan and Dano.

 

[garret9]

What you do in an organization (or hockey team) can affect what other players do, and what the team does collectively. I'm a stats sort of guy, but I think team performance is partly a social dynamic because the performance and attitude of some players affects the performance and attitude of other players.

Where have I argued this counter argument you are setting up?

 

[Jet]

Some of those so called lazy plays were early in the season when he had his groin issue and couldn't accelerate well.

I'm talking historically.

 

[Whileee]

Where have I argued this counter argument you are setting up?

A 9 performing as a 7 still outperforms a 6 trying their hardest and ends up performing as a 6.

Social contagion...

If the 9s are performing at 7, they can drag the 6s down to 4s. So the 9 performing as a 7 can have a wider negative impact on the team performance than is measured simply by his own metrics...

 

[Blue Shakehead]

I think Buff can be casual and careless, and sometimes selfish. Maybe that's better than "lazy", which I agree might be the wrong description for him.

I think Myers is more often clueless, and slow-thinking. That's different. The result isn't better, but that's not what I'm getting at.

I actually think that Wheeler is selfish when he stays on for too long a shift. I've posted that plenty of times.

My point is that the leaders on the team need to lead by example in how they play, not just by results. That's because I believe that there is a social dynamic in teams that affects things like work ethic and discipline, etc. You and others might disagree.

Well, this is sort of my whole point. We are trying to classify players and their impact on their teammates development and the locker room based on our own very limited impressions of them as people from row 15 or from our TVs. Buff seems like a funny dude who doesn't take himself too seriously. He's also not the fittest player. His mistakes must therefore be categorized as part of the impression we've formed of him. Put them in the casual/lazy category. Myers doesn't ham it up for the cameras and always says the right things and he sweats a lot so his mistakes are selfless goof-ups.

Oh but wait, Buff played skated 6-8 hours a day from 4 years old to 16 years old on rented sticks and skates. So maybe he's a hardworker? Or maybe his casual style is from all those hours of shinny?

None of this is based on reality. Social dynamic exists but we have no idea what these players think of each other. Maybe they think Myers is the lazy/casual one? Or not skilled enough to be taking chances? Maybe they think Buff is too loose? Maybe they all have their own opinions of each and they are mixed? Most of them are probably so focussed on themselves and keeping their NHL jobs that they don't really give a flying about what their teammates are doing - unless it costs them goals against - which in Myers case is fairly often. Who knows. None of us have a clue.

 

[Ducky10]

The solution for Myers' goof-ups is not Buff playing a casual / lazy style. I'll spell it out - it's easier to get the rest of the team to buy in to an intense, hardworking style when your top players play that way.

By the way, I've liked Buff's play lately, and I've been unimpressed by Myers for he past few games.

Somehow I doubt Buff's actual teammates see him as lazy and casual. Just my opinion.

 

[garret9]

Social contagion...

If the 9s are performing at 7, they can drag the 6s down to 4s. So the 9 performing as a 7 can have a wider negative impact on the team performance than is measured simply by his own metrics...

Show me in my quote where I said anything counter to such impacts existing?

Your arguing against an argument I never made?

Again, that's why I said things like:
"there is some credence to it"
"It has an impact"
etc.

However, teams and GMs have acted like it matters less than performance.

Worth less != worthless. My argument is the former, not the latter.

 

[Whileee]

Well, this is sort of my whole point. We are trying to classify players and their impact on their teammates development and the locker room based on our own very limited impressions of them as people from row 15 or from our TVs. Buff seems like a funny dude who doesn't take himself too seriously. He's also not the fittest player. His mistakes must therefore be categorized as part of the impression we've formed of him. Put them in the casual/lazy category. Myers doesn't ham it up for the cameras and always says the right things and he sweats a lot so his mistakes are selfless goof-ups.

Oh but wait, Buff played skated 6-8 hours a day from 4 years old to 16 years old on rented sticks and skates. So maybe he's a hardworker? Or maybe his casual style is from all those hours of shinny?

None of this is based on reality. Social dynamic exists but we have no idea what these players think of each other. Maybe they think Myers is the lazy/casual one? Or not skilled enough to be taking chances? Maybe they think Buff is too loose? Maybe they all have their own opinions of each and they are mixed? Most of them are probably so focussed on themselves and keeping their NHL jobs that they don't really give a flying about what their teammates are doing - unless it costs them goals against - which in Myers case is fairly often. Who knows. None of us have a clue.

Except when Wheeler talks about players taking unnecessary risks that cost the team in the context of Buff having just done that. Then we sort of put two and two together...

You're right that we don't really know the dynamics, and I would bet that Buff is going to be a force for the Jets in the playoffs. However, it got pretty frustrating to watch him play like it was a shinny game last season, and a bit at times this season (early on). He's improved. My pure guess is that he's settled down a bit after getting a couple of goals and stringing together some points.

 

[Jet]

Somehow I doubt Buff's actual teammates see him as lazy and casual. Just my opinion.

Maybe not lazy but careless and selfish? Whether they vocalize it or not I'd bet they do.

 

[Whileee]

Show me in my quote where I said anything counter to such impacts existing?

Your arguing against an argument I never made?

What were you implying in your statement that a 9 performing as a 7 was better than a 6 performing as a 6? That binary comparison seems to discount the notion that the 7 performance might have a wider negative impact. That's all....