How on Earth did Mike Bossy go #15 Overall in 1977 NHL Draft??

AmericanDream

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Oct 24, 2005
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Can someone please explain this?

For the life of me, I simply cannot fathom how he he went 15th overall with a 4 year pedigree in the Q of absolutely destroying the league...Was there any issues/red flags with Bossy that I am not remembering at the time? I mean, he wasn't tiny, not a hulking winger but was around 6'0 170lbs when drafted...I know scouting isn't a perfect science, but when you score over 300 goals in 4 years of junior, I am going to call a WTF????
 

The Pale King

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I've read up a bit on this before because I thought it was bizarre as well. Best I could find is that scouts thought he was timid and had no defensive game to speak of. The Q was (and has been historically, to generalize) a league where you can excel despite those kinds of shortcomings.

The Rangers and Leafs both passed on him twice before the Isles selected him, if you can believe that. Extra strange with Toronto, as they traded for Rick Vaive and made him their captain just a couple seasons later.
 

reckoning

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The scoring title in the QMJHL that year was won by a player named Jean Savard. He was actually a few months younger than Bossy, and ended being drafted four picks later at #19 by Chicago. Scored a grand total of 7 goals in his brief NHL career.

One of the Islanders top scouts had his eye on Bossy all year and convinced Torrey that he was a pure goal scorer that they couldn't pass up. Torrey didn't think a prospect that good would last to #15, but the scout correctly predicted that teams would overlook him because of the Q's reputation as the lesser of the three junior leagues, and because Bossy played on a weak Laval team without much in the way of linemates. His numbers would have been bigger and more noticeable on a top team.
 
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K Fleur

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As @The Pale King already elaborated on, I remember hearing in a random NHL network segment that scouts found him to "timid" and weren't certain that his goal scoring abilty in juniors could/would translate to the NHL.

Those scouts were wrong.
 
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Canadiens1958

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The scoring title in the QMJHL that year was won by a player named Jean Savard. He was actually a few months younger than Bossy, and ended being drafted four picks later at #19 by Chicago. Scored a grand total of 7 goals in his brief NHL career.

One of the Islanders top scouts had his eye on Bossy all year and convinced Torrey that he was a pure goal scorer that they couldn't pass up. Torrey didn't think a prospect that good would last to #15, but the scout correctly predicted that teams would overlook him because of the Q's reputation as the lesser of the three junior leagues, and because Bossy played on a weak Laval team without much in the way of linemates. His numbers would have been bigger and more noticeable on a top team.

Nailed it until the last sentence. Concern was that the scoring numbers were inflated by extra TOI due to extra shifting and that no one bothered defending him or Laval.

Another concern was that Bossy was an "old", January birthday, who was never approached to play in the WHA. He was not a skater whose skating impressed.

Canadiens drafted Mark Napier five picks earlier, also an "old" born six days after Bossy, but a much better skater in junior,coming off two excellent WHA seasons.

Mark Napier Stats | Hockey-Reference.com
 

The Panther

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All good reasons already mentioned. It seems like in the 70s/80s, the Q was a real crapshoot in terms of its top players. Remember the legendary Guy Rouleau? No you don't, but he outscored 19-20 year old Luc Robitaille in the Q when they were teammates. 91 goals in 61 games, yet he wasn't good enough for the NHL, while Robitaille stepped in as rookie of the year.

Someone mentioned Mark Napier. Seems like Montreal was crazy to take him over Bossy. But if you compare, say, an average Bossy season to Napier's peak season (1981-82), they're actually not that far apart. The big difference is, how do you know, in Junior, which guy has the drive and determination to bring it at his top level every night, and which guy doesn't?
 
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reckoning

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I was reading newspaper archives from '77 and saw one that had the midseason prospect rankings. Mark Napier was rated #1. The only problem was that he was already playing in the WHA, so nobody knew how long it might take for him to leave and join the NHL. The weaker teams picking early needed immediate help. Montreal could afford to wait for him.

Similar situation in that same draft with another WHA player - John Tonelli. Rated as a mid-first round selection, Islanders got him late in the 2nd.
 
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Artorius Horus T

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What about 1977 WHA draft,Bossy was drafted by the Indianapolis Racers, 5th round.
- not that Bossy would of ever played in the WHA, but thought it was interesting :)
 

puckpilot

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The 1:50 mark of this video gives a little insight by one of the Islander's executives. Also it's also well known, Bossy wouldn't fight, not matter what, no matter what someone did to him. And even today, if a player has that hanging over them, they probably get labelled as a wuss.

 

Artorius Horus T

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The 1:50 mark of this video gives a little insight by one of the Islander's executives. Also it's also well known, Bossy wouldn't fight, not matter what, no matter what someone did to him. And even today, if a player has that hanging over them, they probably get labelled as a wuss.



Thats because of: "you think you better than me?" "you think you too good to fight me? neanderthal/bully mentality. That still exists today.

The truth was; he was better than anyone, also, he was smart not to fight.
 

Jumptheshark

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I've read up a bit on this before because I thought it was bizarre as well. Best I could find is that scouts thought he was timid and had no defensive game to speak of. The Q was (and has been historically, to generalize) a league where you can excel despite those kinds of shortcomings.

The Rangers and Leafs both passed on him twice before the Isles selected him, if you can believe that. Extra strange with Toronto, as they traded for Rick Vaive and made him their captain just a couple seasons later.
The Q still has a bad rap
 

cupcrazyman

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When Bossy looked at his 1st contract he said to Bill Torey that's not a log of money for someone who is going to score you 50 goals.Mike would go on to score 53 in his rookie season.
 
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thegoldenyear

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Everything upthread is fair enough, but a bottom-feeder did present Bossy with a crack at going top five.

Per his 1988 autobiog, Boss: The Mike Bossy Story, the Cleveland Barons came calling with the fifth overall pick. Bossy's agent, Pierre Lacroix (yeah, him: they'd met when Lacroix was PR for Laval) devised a way to get out of indentured service to a soon-to-be-contracted franchise:

"...They asked Pierre how much it would take to sign me.

"'We want $100,000 to sign and $100,000 a year for three years,' Pierre replied firmly. 'That's $400,000 for three years.'

"'Thank you,' came the abrupt reply.' Maybe next time. We'll call you back.' Click.


"...I didn't want to go to Cleveland. We knew the Barons' franchise was in serious financial trouble. We knew $400,000 for three years was too much above the going rate for a first-round draft pick. For a team on the brink of extinction, it was out of the question."

Per the book, a reporter told Lacroix the Leafs (#11, #12) passed because they bought into some [strategic?] intel that Bossy was also considering the WHA Nordiques. The book spends five pages detailing Bill Torrey's initial lowball offer and subsequent Bossy-Lacroix posturing re: Quebec.

"...[Quebec GM Maurice] Filion's mistake was giving us 48 hours to accept his offer...If he hadn't...I would have been forced to decide right there between the Islanders' initial offer: three years for $160,000 U.S., but only $72,000 guaranteed; and the Nordiques' offer: three years for $300,000 Canadian, all guaranteed.

"I would have taken the $300,000 Canadian.

"Goulet-Stastny-Bossy?"

Hey, that would've made an interesting line!
 

blood gin

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It was down to Torrey or Dwight Foster for the Islanders. Al Arbour heavily lobbied for Bossy and got his man. The belief was that Foster was a gritty, tough forward with good defensive skills but didn't have the offensive skillset that would translate well to the NHL. Bossy was a scorer who couldn't check. Arbour basically said "I can teach a scorer how to check, but I can't teach a checker how to score" and that won Torrey over. Bossy was selected and the rest is history
 

decma

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All good reasons already mentioned. It seems like in the 70s/80s, the Q was a real crapshoot in terms of its top players. Remember the legendary Guy Rouleau? No you don't, but he outscored 19-20 year old Luc Robitaille in the Q when they were teammates. 91 goals in 61 games, yet he wasn't good enough for the NHL, while Robitaille stepped in as rookie of the year.

Someone mentioned Mark Napier. Seems like Montreal was crazy to take him over Bossy. But if you compare, say, an average Bossy season to Napier's peak season (1981-82), they're actually not that far apart. The big difference is, how do you know, in Junior, which guy has the drive and determination to bring it at his top level every night, and which guy doesn't?


Guy Rouleau is 10 months older than Luc Robitaille. If you control for age, it is clear that Robitaille had the better junior stats.

Age 18 season:
Rouleau 56 pts in 68 games
Robitalle 85 pts in 70 games

Age 19 season:
Rouleau 133 pts in 70 games
Robitaille 148 pts in 64 games

Age 20 season:
Rouleau 163 pts in 60 games
Robitaille 191 pts in 63 games


The scoring title in the QMJHL that year was won by a player named Jean Savard. He was actually a few months younger than Bossy, and ended being drafted four picks later at #19 by Chicago. Scored a grand total of 7 goals in his brief NHL career.

Yeah, Jean Savard did have a very good age 20 season, but if you look at their 18 and 19 year old seasons, it was clear that Bossy was producing at a much higher level.

In their 18 year old seasons (74-75), Bossy had 84 goals and 149 points in 66 games, while Savard had 35 goals and 59 points in 72 games.

The next season, Bossy 64-79-136 while Savard was 68-25-67.

So even though Savard had the better age 20 season, the three year totals were much better for Bossy.
 
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Staniowski

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Guy Rouleau is 10 months older than Luc Robitaille. If you control for age, it is clear that Robitaille had the better junior stats.

Age 18 season:
Rouleau 56 pts in 68 games
Robitalle 85 pts in 70 games

Age 19 season:
Rouleau 133 pts in 70 games
Robitaille 148 pts in 64 games

Age 20 season:
Rouleau 163 pts in 60 games
Robitaille 191 pts in 63 games




Yeah, Jean Savard did have a very good age 20 season, but if you look at their 18 and 19 year old seasons, it was clear that Bossy was producing at a much higher level.

In their 18 year old seasons (74-75), Bossy had 84 goals and 149 points in 66 games, while Savard had 35 goals and 59 points in 72 games.

The next season, Bossy 64-79-136 while Savard was 68-25-67.

So even though Savard had the better age 20 season, the three year totals were much better for Bossy.

That's an interesting scoring leaders in the Q in '85-'86:
1st - 20-yr-old Guy Rouleau
2nd - 19-yr-old Luc Robitaille
5th - 18-yr-old Vincent Damphousse
6th - 17-yr-old Jimmy Carson
15th - 16-yr-old Pierre Turgeon

3 years earlier ('82-'83) in the Q, when they were both 17 (both 1965 birthdays), Pat LaFontaine outscored Mario Lemieux by a wide margin.
 
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vadim sharifijanov

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The 1:50 mark of this video gives a little insight by one of the Islander's executives. Also it's also well known, Bossy wouldn't fight, not matter what, no matter what someone did to him. And even today, if a player has that hanging over them, they probably get labelled as a wuss.

bossy was a much tougher, resilient and willing player than any of the pre-draft anecdotes suggest.

but still one has to admit, if a guy flat out is never going to fight he was pretty fortunate to walk into the league having clark gillies, bryan trottier, and denis potvin on the ice wasn't he?
 
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Canadiens1958

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That's an interesting scoring leaders in the Q in '85-'86:
1st - 20-yr-old Guy Rouleau
2nd - 19-yr-old Luc Robitaille
5th - 18-yr-old Vincent Damphousse
6th - 17-yr-old Jimmy Carson
15th - 16-yr-old Pierre Turgeon

3 years earlier ('82-'83) in the Q, when they were both 17 (both 1965 birthdays), Pat LaFontaine outscored Mario Lemieux by a wide margin.

Lafontaine was a February 1965 birthday, Lemieux was an October 1965 birthday. In terms of the NHL draft(Sept 15) and Hockey Quebec. Lafontaine was a year older.
 

Staniowski

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Lafontaine was a February 1965 birthday, Lemieux was an October 1965 birthday. In terms of the NHL draft(Sept 15) and Hockey Quebec. Lafontaine was a year older.

Yeah, I'm aware of their birthdays, and also of the NHL draft rules regarding such. I don't think the QMJHL uses a Sept 15 cutoff, does it? What were/are the rules for this in minor hockey in Quebec? Would Mario have grown up playing mostly with '66 birthdays?
 

Canadiens1958

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Yeah, I'm aware of their birthdays, and also of the NHL draft rules regarding such. I don't think the QMJHL uses a Sept 15 cutoff, does it? What were/are the rules for this in minor hockey in Quebec? Would Mario have grown up playing mostly with '66 birthdays?

Now, roughly the last 10 years it is the same for Hockey Quebec January 1 to December 31. Previously the school year was used.Oct 1 to Sept. 30. Also the minor - first year,major - second year distinction was never officially recognized.

Playing elite in the 1970s, first year against mainly older players- Oct 1,1964.
 
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The Panther

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That's an interesting scoring leaders in the Q in '85-'86:
1st - 20-yr-old Guy Rouleau
2nd - 19-yr-old Luc Robitaille
5th - 18-yr-old Vincent Damphousse
6th - 17-yr-old Jimmy Carson
15th - 16-yr-old Pierre Turgeon
Yes, this is exactly my point (above).
Robitaille -- 668 NHL goals, Eight times 1st/2nd team All Star
Damphousse -- 1205 NHL points; led Stanley Cup winner in scoring
Jimmy Carson -- more goals as a teen than any NHL player in history; 141 goals first three seasons
Turgeon -- 1327 NHL points; 132 points in one season
Rouleau -- not drafted at all, couldn't make the NHL

I am guessing the reason Rouleau couldn't make it on any NHL team is not his talent or ability, but something to do with his maturity / attitude. (Yeah, I know he was sort of small, but other players were then, too.)

So, I think NHL teams were aware of (a) possibly deceptively high stats in the Q, and (b) the maturity-level of young players being a factor in who can make it in the big-leagues or not.
3 years earlier ('82-'83) in the Q, when they were both 17 (both 1965 birthdays), Pat LaFontaine outscored Mario Lemieux by a wide margin.
Mario was also outscored that year by the legendary Claude Verret, who made it into 14 NHL games in his career.
 
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decma

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Yes, this is exactly my point (above).
Robitaille -- 668 NHL goals, Eight times 1st/2nd team All Star
Damphousse -- 1205 NHL points; led Stanley Cup winner in scoring
Jimmy Carson -- more goals as a teen than any NHL player in history; 141 goals first three seasons
Turgeon -- 1327 NHL points; 132 points in one season
Rouleau -- not drafted at all, couldn't make the NHL

I am guessing the reason Rouleau couldn't make it on any NHL team is not his talent or ability, but something to do with his maturity / attitude. (Yeah, I know he was sort of small, but other players were then, too.)

So, I think NHL teams were aware of (a) possibly deceptively high stats in the Q, and (b) the maturity-level of young players being a factor in who can make it in the big-leagues or not.

I think you need to take age into account when looking at the junior stats.

Here are the stats of those five players in their first year of draft eligibility.

Turgeon 58-69-154
Damphousse* 69-45-155
Carson 69-70-153
Robitaille 70-32-85
Rouleau 68-25-56

Yeah, Rouleau had great seasons in his following three Q seasons, but guys who score 2 pts a game as overagers but never amount to much in the NHL are a lot more common than guys who manage that as 18-year olds.

* with a December birthday, Damphousse was relatively old in his first draft-eligible season, but even his stats in his draft-1 season were better than Rouleau's were in his first draft eligible season.
 

Staniowski

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I think you need to take age into account when looking at the junior stats.

Here are the stats of those five players in their first year of draft eligibility.

Turgeon 58-69-154
Damphousse* 69-45-155
Carson 69-70-153
Robitaille 70-32-85
Rouleau 68-25-56

Yeah, Rouleau had great seasons in his following three Q seasons, but guys who score 2 pts a game as overagers but never amount to much in the NHL are a lot more common than guys who manage that as 18-year olds.

* with a December birthday, Damphousse was relatively old in his first draft-eligible season, but even his stats in his draft-1 season were better than Rouleau's were in his first draft eligible season.

Yes, you certainly need to take age into account. A 16-year-old is a lot different than an 18-year-old, and an 18-year-old is a lot different than a 20-year-old.

There is nothing unusual about Guy Rouleau. The QMJHL, OHL, and WHL have each had many players like this.

Whenever you move to a higher level of hockey, some will make it, and some won't, even if they seemed to be of a similar quality at the lower level. The most important reason for this is that at each higher level, the competition is better and the pace is faster.

It's the job of scouts to determine who can make it at the higher level. In the case of Bossy, I'm sure there was some doubt about whether he could do it, probably because he was perceived to be only a scorer.
 
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Staniowski

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Now, roughly the last 10 years it is the same for Hockey Quebec January 1 to December 31. Previously the school year was used.Oct 1 to Sept. 30. Also the minor - first year,major - second year distinction was never officially recognized.

Playing elite in the 1970s, first year against mainly older players- Oct 1,1964.

C1958, thanks for the info.
 

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