How good was Bobby Hull?

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by arrbez, Dec 7, 2005.

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  1. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Let me preface this by saying that I'm too young to have seen him play

    On the lists of the top forwards ever, I always seem him rated behind Beliveau and Richard (and obviously the big 3). Why is that?

    He seems at least as accomplished as Beliveau to me, and moreso than Richard. And he left the league in the prime of his career coming off a 50 goal season

    Is the Golden Jet a little underrated?
     
  2. VanIslander

    VanIslander Don't waste my time

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    He is the consensus pick as greatest left winger in the history of the game.

    No other position is as clear cut.

    That alone is enough respect.
     
  3. Crosbyfan

    Crosbyfan Registered User

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    He probably had the talent to be rated higher but I would rate him below Stan Mikita overall. Mikita was less impressive to watch but more effective. The best I ever saw him play was in '74 against the Soviets. He really made an effort to give the WHA a chance to win. In his NHL years he put out a great effort but moreso in an individual sense.

    If he is more accomplished than Beliveau that would have to be in goal scoring only, although off the ice he helped raise players salaries more than any 10 players combined back when players made a small fraction of what they do today.
     
  4. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    I said I think they are comparable:

    Hull: 3 Art Ross, 2 Hart, 1 Byng

    Beliveau: 1 Art Ross, 2 Hart, 1 Conn Smyth (which, in fairness, didn't exist when Hull won the cup)
     
  5. Gee Wally

    Gee Wally Grumpy

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    Hull was great in his own right.

    I'd Beliveau an edge as a more all around player.
    But close...very close.


    Hull, as written about, had a shot that I thought would kill somebody some day.

    Don't forget he was shooting over 100 MPH in the days of no masks, no kevlar, no freakin' nothing but leather and felt.

    Tough SOB too. I saw him knock out Don Awrey once with one shot. That's it .
    A tussle in the crease... POW !..Awrey goes down like a bag of potatoes.

    A true testament to how good he was is that he could sellout oppossing buildings. Fans in general wanted to see him.
     
  6. Crosbyfan

    Crosbyfan Registered User

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    You think Beliveau would have won only 1?

    Beliveau would list 10 cups before he even thought about the Individual awards. So no he's not at least as accomplished as Beliveau. And Beliveau lead the Canadiens overall in PIM during the 5 straight cups in the fifties. That trumps the Byng.
     
  7. Sens Rule

    Sens Rule Registered User

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    In the NHL in All-Time goals including WHA and NHL regular season and playoffs he trails only Wayne Gretzky and Gordie Howe. Third all-time in Goals is a major accomplishment. And even if he hadn't gone to the less talented WHA is still would be third all time becasue he is far ahead of the 4th place.

    As a goal-scorer no one was better IMO Lemieux, Bossy, Howe, Gretz and the Rocket are his equal but no better. Because of the difference in era's it is hard to say who was a better goal scorer so they all tie!
     
  8. arrbez

    arrbez bad chi

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    Relax, I'm just saying that he never had the opportunity to win a Smyth on his cup victory. I included it as a positive for Beliveau, but I thought it should be noted, that's all.

    The Conn Smyth generally goes to the best player on the team that wins (except in extreme cases like Giguere).

    While Beliveau was certainly a huge part of the Canadiens championships in the 50's and 60's, I think it's fair to say that he also played on better teams than Hull did and had more of an opportunity to win championships. One player can not win a cup by themselves, it takes a team.
     
  9. Jack Canuck

    Jack Canuck Registered User

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    You are in luck. He is making a come back.
    http://www.chicagowolves.com/news/readstory.cfm?story=1303
     
  10. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Bobby Hull is a lot underrated. To me the top tier includes Hull. Howe, Orr, Lemiex, gretzy and I saw them all play. Hull scored 50 goals when it meant something back in the days of the defence oriented original 6. Nobody but him scored over 50 in that era (54 in 65-66). He also set the indiv point record of 97 in that era. If he had played on a team like the 80's Oilers God knows how many goals he would have scored.

    He also was the reason the WHA lasted as long as it did. He was the man that gave it credibility. Also his team the Winnipeg Jets really introduced the European style to North american. watching Hull/Nilson/Hedberg was poetry in motion. Also who can forget his natural hat trick against the russians in 74 and he was the top goal scorer in the 1976 Canada cup.

    No way beliveau matches up. Bobby Hull filled hockey rinks with his charisma & Skill. Also he was very obliging to fans & would sign autograph after autograph.
     
  11. Big Phil

    Big Phil Registered User

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    First off I love Beliveau and I love Hull. But hey man, Beliveau is ahead of him. I even have Beliveau at #5 of all-time. After that its Richard, Havey and then Hull IMO. No knock on Hull, I mean 8th all time is pretty good. I dont think he was underrated at all. He led the league in goals 7 times, the most by any player in NHL history. The thing against Hull is his one Cup. Only one Cup, its astounding Chicago didnt win any more than that. Well one of the reasons why was because the Habs won then instead often. And who was the best player for them? Beliveau. 10 Cups is better than 1. And if you want to compare anyhting compare that, because they both had good regular seasons.

    Yes Hull filled buildings, but Beliveau even today keeps people in awe. Beliveau had more grace while Bobby had more speed. But Beliveau was still a joy to watch.

    There were a lot of years where the Hawks could have won the Cup and didnt. '62, '65, '67, '71 come to mind. So in the original 6 days that has to be a knock.
     
  12. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    If stanley cups are the criteria for determining the better players then the top player list would be very heavy with Montreal Canadian players as yours seems to be. Being on a Stanley cup winner has a lot more to to do with the luck of the draw, coaching & clutch goaltending which Montreal had in spades and Chicago was deficient in. If the roles had been switched, i think you are saying Chicago would have won 10 cups with Beliveau and Montreal would have won only one with Hull. Your logic is vary flawed.
     
  13. scribe114

    scribe114 Registered User

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    Murray you are the man!

    Question for ya, I think Pilote would have won the Smythe in 61 if it were given out, what do you think?

    Another question: (Not to hijack) who do you think was better Kelly or Harvey?

    Back to the thread, good one at that! :handclap:
     
  14. Chili

    Chili Registered User

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    For me Hull is among the best of the best offensive players I've seen play because he could generate offense all by himself. With his great speed and shot he was a handful for any defense or goaler. He had to also be one of the strongest players physically of his era. a unique offensive talent.
     
  15. mcphee

    mcphee Registered User

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    60-67, HUll was the guy. There was no question, he was the star, the major drawing card of the league. You may prefer Beliveau, I do, Mikita, etc., but until Orr,Hull was the guy who people would pay to watch on his own.
     
  16. pnep

    pnep Registered User

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  17. scribe114

    scribe114 Registered User

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    Thanks my good man, I guess someone agreed with me.

    I would like to see them do the same with some of the more modern awards (Norris, Selke, Masterson)

    P.S. Hull was a specimen
     
  18. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Agree Pilote would have won Smythe in 61. Glen hall would have been a close second. To me beating Montreal in the Semis was the big deal. The final with Detroit was al most an afterthought.

    I think Harvey & Kelly were close but my preference is Harvey. He could control a game on his own.
     
  19. mjdm

    mjdm Registered User

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    Bobby Hull is one of the best of all time!!!!
     
  20. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    I belong to that research group (SIHR) that did the study on who would have won the Conn Smythe prior to 1965. I thought that the same was done for other trophies. I'll have to check as it was a few years ago.



     
  21. scribe114

    scribe114 Registered User

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    Thank you Classic, will check periodically to see if the info pops up.
     
  22. ClassicHockey

    ClassicHockey Registered User

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    I checked with the members and what you see on the HHOF website and the link

    http://www.hhof.com/html/newsconn.shtml

    was the work of SIHR members for the Hockey News. The original plan was to do the same for the other Trophies. But when Steve Dryden left the Hockey News, the rest of the project faded away. Too bad, because it would have been interesting. Maybe it will be revived.


     
  23. svetovy poharu

    svetovy poharu Registered User

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    Here is something that I wasn't aware of the amazing Bobby Hull. Back in 1972, his old team along with the NHL through legal action prevented the Golden Jet from playing in Winnipeg's first 14 games of the new WHA. But when he was finally cleared to play by the courts, he went on to score 51 goals and 103 points in 63 games while also serving as the team's coach. He led the Jets to a first-place title in the Western Division and to the AVCO Cup final, as well as being the team's leading scorer despite missing the first 14 games of the season. Plus his linemates benefitted with his RW Norm Beaudin ending up with 38 goals and 65 assists, and his Centre Chris Bordeleau finishing with 47 goals and 54 assists in that first WHA season.

    Interesting to look back: Hull finally got to play in his first WHA game on Nov. 8, 1972 in Quebec City before a crowd of 10,126 (a 3-2 Winnipeg loss to the Nordiques). He failed to score a goal although he drew an assist with only five seconds left in the game, but was named the most outstanding player on the ice. Hull played the next night in Ottawa as Winnipeg coasted to a 4-1 win over the Nationals before 5,044 (Ottawa's largest crowd of the season). He picked up an assist but was covered closely again in this game and unable to score. The Jets played their 3rd consecutive game in 3 nights on Nov. 10. It was Hull's home debut at the Arena in front of 7,487 but resulted in a 5-1 loss to Minnesota. The Fighting Saints goalie Mike Curran kept Hull off the scoresheet and allowed Hull only 3 shots on goal. Bobby finally broke into the WHA goal scoring column in his 4th game on Nov. 12 in Winnipeg as he led his team to a 5-2 win over the Los Angeles Sharks. Hull's first goal came on his very first shift on a powerplay when he blasted a 50-foot slapshot from the blueline.This led to a wild standing ovation, which included littering the ice, causing a five-minute game delay. He went on to score another goal and an assist in this game as well. Jets owner Ben Hatskin had said of Bobby's value that the price for 1,000 seats a game went toward paying Hull his yearly salary of more than $200,000.
     
  24. pappyline

    pappyline Registered User

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    Remember it well. He was the first million dollar hockey player. All the NHL had to do was for each team to come up with 65k each & Chicago to pay Hull what he was worth and they would have killed the WHA at the start & saved the NHL millions of dollars over the years.The impact that Hull had on hockey is grossly underestimated. Likewise his standing on the Hockey News all time list. Pre Orr, gretzy & Lemieux, Hull was ranked second to Howe in those days ahead of Richard, Beliveau, Richard etal. I think a lot of those voters looked only at NHL stats which were very inflated post Hull.
     
  25. chooch*

    chooch* Guest

    Do you recall what Sanderson made or Parent? I had thought Sanderson got $1 million and scored 3 goals in the WHA? Bobby Orr was the highest NHLer in the mid 70's at $600k.
    At what point were the stats inflated post Hull? 1980s?

    DO you recall an oftplayed clip of Hull scoring on a hapless WHA goalie by slapping the puck from the high slot and the goalie literally steps out of the way and meekly waves at it as it goes in the net. Always wanted to know who was the goalie.
     
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