How do the Pens do it?

[illpucks]

As teams like Edmonton and Buffalo are showing, it takes more than drafting high to put together a perennial contender and multi cup winner. Not saying the pens haven't been lucky though by landing Crosby and Malkin, because they have been.

If Edmonton was smart they would have traded up to get Laine. McDavid Laine would be like Sid Geno

 

[Riptide]

Not Boston?

I'd prefer to play Boston over Tampa as I do not see Boston being as deep and as good as Tampa. That said, either of those teams are very capable of beating Pittsburgh, and while it would suck to lose to Boston (I have a TON of friends who are B fans), there wouldn't be any shame in losing to either.

 

[Riptide]

If Edmonton was smart they would have traded up to get Laine. McDavid Laine would be like Sid Geno

You need that center depth - especially at 1/2C. Drai can always play wing. Laine will never play C. So while Laine is absolutely the better player of the two, I'd still take Drai due to the position he plays.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

that "superstar" forward group just got swept by an expansion team

They had one superstar and 2 other guys playing like superstars, neither of whom they have anymore. I never even called them a superstar forward group either, so there's no need to get all insecure and defensive.

As a fan of a team who understands the importance of a guy like Vlasic, I'd thought you guys maybe more than any other fanbase would appreciate what a guy like Dumoulin brings to the table. A team can do much worse than have Dumoulin on your top pairing.

(No, I'm not saying Dumoulin is on par with Vlasic. I'm simply referring to a guy being great at the parts of the game that don't necessarily show up in the stat sheet)

Plenty of teams have a defenseman worse than Dumolin on their top pair (hell, SJ technically has Paul Martin on their top pair, though he is #4 in TOI), but Dumolin was the ice time leader for Pittsburgh.

On top of that, I know that you didn't compare the two, but Vlasic is just flat out on a different level from Dumolin. In his last 6 playoff series, Vlasic has been hard matched against Kopitar, F.Forsberg, Tarasenko, Crosby, McDavid, and now Getzlaf. In those 6 series, those players have 7 goals and 10 assists in 34 games. (And off the top of my head, at least 3 of those goals were in garbage time.) These aren't their numbers at 5V5 or when Vlasic is on the ice, these are their numbers as a whole in the entire series. Those 6 superstars combined have scored at a 17 goal, 24 assist per season rate against the Sharks. Effectively, you could say that against Vlasic, the very best players on playoff teams suddenly score at a rate that is weak for a 2nd line player.

I think defensemen like Dumolin are very effective, but the Penguins were getting scored on by the other team's top players quite often. Had the Pens had Vlasic in Dumolin's spot, maybe they wouldn't have let guys like Ovechkin, Oshie, and Hoffman score the way that they did.

2016 was more dominant, but 2017 was more impressive imo. How many teams can lose their #1 dman and goalie heading into the playoffs, completely shape shift their style, and still go on to win the cup?

It depends on how you define impressive. They went to game 7 OT against a terrible Ottawa team and were mostly outplayed in every series except that Ottawa series. It's definitely more impressive forCrosby, Malkin, Kessel, and the goalies, who didn't have to (and didn't) put up elite superstar numbers to win, but that 2016 team impressed me a lot more because they just flat out dominated the best Sharks team in the history of the franchise in that 2016 SCF.

 

[Mickey Marner]

Well, they failed to win 6 consecutive cups between their first and second. Crosby's deal is arguably cap circumvention, or at least no longer legal. They are receiving excellent bang for their buck from Murray, Guentzal (sp?) and co.

 

[TomasHertlsRooster]

Holtby did what every "elite" goalie did against the Pens save for Vasilevsky the past 2 years.

And Craig Anderson and Martin Jones?

Some credit obviously goes to Pittsburgh's forward group and scorers for torching those goaltenders, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think they were a bit lucky to have the last 3 Vezina winners all have MAJOR meltdowns in the playoffs in 2017.

 

[bukwas]

Not Boston?

No, i can't see it.
I think they roll over everyone with Tampa putting up the best fight.

 

[Hockeyholic]

Jinx thread. They're going back to Philly.

 

[Crosbyfan]

Maybe...just maybe...Malkin was a top 100 player more so than the Chicago trio after all...

 

[Riptide]

Well, they failed to win 6 consecutive cups between their first and second. Crosby's deal is arguably cap circumvention, or at least no longer legal. They are receiving excellent bang for their buck from Murray, Guentzal (sp?) and co.

I think you need to look up the definition of "cap circumvention".

It can only be "cap circumvention" if he fails to play out the entire 12 year contract. If he plays all 12 years, he will have been paid 104.4m and completed the contract in it's entirety. There's no possible way that one could then call that "cap circumvention".

 

[COHawk]

The pats were a couple plays away from 2 more Super Bowls, but it doesn’t really matter, does it?

In the argument of a team remaining competitive in between championships, yes it does matter. The reason I posted that as explained in other posts already is because the OP said "The last "dynasty" (Hawks) had to spend 1-2 seasons retooling after every cup win." My argument was that 2014 was most definitely not a retool.

 

[ES]

Pens have pretty good situation salary-wise. Here are the players who are under contract for next year and the amount of salary retained by other team. Pens is the biggest winner here.

PIT
3,2M until 2019, 1,2M until 2022 (Brassard, Kessel)
NYR
1,9M until 2020 (Beleskey)
LA
1,75M until 2021 (Phaneuf)
CGY
1,416667M until 2019 (Smith)
FLA
0,8M until 2022 (Luongo)
ARI
0,5625M until 2021 (Demers)

 

[Rodgerwilco]

The Hawks were one OT goal away from winning in 2013 which would have been 3 straight Cups.

Pittsburgh has yet to run into a team on the level of 2014 LA, maybe the '16 Sharks and '17 Caps were on that level but Pittsburgh matched up better against SJ and Holtby disappeared in 2017.

No, you're retro-actively transplanting a cup win in between their 12-13 and 14-15 cups.

They only made it to the Conference Finals in 13-14, anyway.

Even if they did win in 13-14, it's impossible to say that nothing would have happened en route to the win, or as a result from the win, that would have stopped them from winning the 14-15 cup anway.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

And Craig Anderson and Martin Jones?

Some credit obviously goes to Pittsburgh's forward group and scorers for torching those goaltenders, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think they were a bit lucky to have the last 3 Vezina winners all have MAJOR meltdowns in the playoffs in 2017.

Its weird that all these goalies tend to melt down against 1 opponent. We call this the common denominator

Just a major coincidence I'm sure

 

[Grandma Bingo]

the caps don't really count considering they've been 2nd round fodder for the pens stretching back to 2009.

Stretching back to 1991, you mean.

 

[ZeroPucksGiven]

• The Pens are the first team since the 1997-99 Detroit Red Wings to win 9 straight playoff series, a mark only 6 teams in league history have ever done. They join the ‘91-93 Pens on this list. The all-time record, by far, is 19 straight series wins by the Islanders from 1980-84. These Pens have an opportunity to be one of a very select few to have a double-digit playoff series win streak with a win next round.

From pensburgh

Pretty impressive in the cap era

 

[CupsOverCash]

The pens found depth. The playoffs are a different animal in that your star players are super focused on and your depth players have to perform. They finally found some guys like Sheary, Guentzel, Hornquist, Rust, and some other guys. I mean Kessel is a depth player. Thats how much depth they created for themselves. Add in Murray and Fluery stepping up when asked upon. Recipe for domination.

 

[Lebowski]

I think Tampa is the only worry they have.

Boston and Columbus are no easy pickings either.

I'd give the Pens 50/50 odds against any of those three teams.

 

[Sypher04]

Well, let's put this into perspective, the Hawks went:

2012/13 - Cup
2013/14 - WCF game 7 OT vs. LA (Cup champs)
2014/15 - Cup

So really, they were one single goal away from making it to the finals in 2013/14 which was a year everybody thought the Western Conference was winning regardless. So to say they were hypothetically 1 goal away from winning three Cups in a row, is that really THAT much different than if Pitt wins three in a row? They were competitive all 3 years.

Doesn't work like that...

Chicago was 1 goal away from playing for the cup in the finals. You can't just give them the next series by default if they beat LA

 

[CupsOverCash]

Boston and Columbus are no easy pickings either.

I'd give the Pens 50/50 odds against any of those three teams.

I would too. The Pens are the best team in the world when they are on. Question is will they be on when playing these teams who are hungry to knock them off.

 

[Peat]

Its weird that all these goalies tend to melt down against 1 opponent. We call this the common denominator

Just a major coincidence I'm sure

90 of the 181 goaltending performances that the Pens faced over the last two seasons ended in a save percentage of .900 or less. I can't find a team that got more.

There's always two sides to a coin and yeah, all of the top goaltenders up against us could have done better and it's just as well they didn't... but the Pens force bad goaltending performances more often than anyone else. There's probably some luck to the ones we've destroyed over the past few play-offs, but not all that much.

I suspect a good X and Os analysis of how good a job teams did of boxing out the Pens from the slot would also help explain why some goaltenders looked great against us and others turned into pumpkins.


Anyway, as to the original question -

Retools happen when teams lose too much talent, either due to pay rises exceeding the cap or old age.

The Pens were fortunate enough to start a run with few important old players and few important players due for big pay rises. What we've lost has therefore mainly been relatively unimportant - and Rutherford and WBS have done a fantastic job of replacing that. I think we may be stronger now than when we started this run.

 

[COHawk]

Doesn't work like that...

Chicago was 1 goal away from playing for the cup in the finals. You can't just give them the next series by default if they beat LA

Goddamn. Everybody needs to read my later posts before quoting this.

In no way am I saying it counts as a victory or anything. It is an argument against the OP saying the Hawks were still competitive in 2014 rather than a retool.

 

[MoeManthaMustache]

The simple answer is that the penguins relied on a combination of youth with a vet or two as compared to teams that solely relied on slower, less skilled vets. I think you are seeing the trend now - speed and skill are heavily valued, and in cases when you have young players who have that - you put them on the ice and deal with the mental mistakes as they come. The Leafs, the Bruins, the Penguins - teams that receive major contributions through players whom the average fan has to say "who?" No more Craig Adams... and the bonus is the the burden those younger players take from the salary cap.

 

[3074326]

And Craig Anderson and Martin Jones?

Some credit obviously goes to Pittsburgh's forward group and scorers for torching those goaltenders, but you'd have to be kidding yourself if you don't think they were a bit lucky to have the last 3 Vezina winners all have MAJOR meltdowns in the playoffs in 2017.

And you would have to be kidding yourself to think that the last three Vezina winners all just randomly had meltdowns against a team built to score in bunches.

That was no coincidence. The Pens have made lots of goalies look silly in the postseason. Most of the ones they've played against, to be honest.

 

[boredmale]

First you luck out in a draft that while the top player was generation, you lose the draft lottery and get a player anyways that is almost as good. Then the very next year the league has a draft lottery where picking first in the previous 5 draft hurts your chances, that you win and get yet another generational player.