Confirmed with Link: Holland signed to 2-year extension

[Dotter]

I like this. Let the man do the rebuild. He's been doing a great job.

 

[WingNut]

I like this. Let the man do the rebuild. He's been doing a great job.

WTF are you talking about! You cannot be serious!

 

[Run the Jewels]

I would say yes, focusing on draft picks is a newer statement that began after last season and was reinforced heavily at the deadline. But "moving younger players on the roster"- haha they've been saying that for 5 years. Somehow the oldest team in the league is always magically getting younger. We have to expect 1 or 2 veteran contracts this summer, that's how Kenny rolls.

They have been focusing on draft picks since the first salary cap was implemented. They stopped trading first round draft picks so they could draft and develop their best draft picks. Outside of Larkin it's been a total failure. I will never understand the people who think we need to be more patient with draft picks, this GM created the phrase "over ripen" or those who are opposed to maximizing our potential to draft at the top of the draft.

Those who continue to praise the same approach that has resulted in us being one of the worst teams in the league with no end in sight are truly a sight to behold.

 

[FissionFire]

The crossroads for the franchise was when they chose to let Yzerman walk instead of forcing Holland to vacate the GM post and either move up or resign. We had exactly what we needed to transition to a new era and the perfect GM loved by the city to do it and Ilitch jumped the shark. It’s been one long downhill spiral ever since.

 

[Red Stanley]

I just meant that I didn't like the pick. He might still become a good NHL player, but I'd bet it would be as a middle six winger, rather than a playmaker who really helps drive the offense. I preferred Vilardi then, and I still think Gabe ends up having a better career, but we'll see.

He wasn't drafted as a playmaking center. He was drafted to be the true power forward we've been lacking for a long time. He is supposed to address a very specific and dire need. His primary job will be to create space by driving the net and cause mayhem once he gets there. Whether he does that as a wing or a center is less important.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

WTF are you talking about! You cannot be serious!

I think he means this in a cherry-picking "in the time period where Ken Holland admitted to himself that the Wings are rebuilding" kind of way.

Obviously if you consider a longer period of time, Holland's track record is not so good.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

He wasn't drafted as a playmaking center. He was drafted to be the true power forward we've been lacking for a long time. He is supposed to address a very specific and dire need. His primary job will be to create space by driving the net and cause mayhem once he gets there. Whether he does that as a wing or a center is less important.

If you're expecting a "true power forward" you're going to be disappointed. Rasmussen doesn't really hit and doesn't really fight.

 

[Red Stanley]

They have been focusing on draft picks since the first salary cap was implemented. They stopped trading first round draft picks so they could draft and develop their best draft picks. Outside of Larkin it's been a total failure. I will never understand the people who think we need to be more patient with draft picks, this GM created the phrase "over ripen" or those who are opposed to maximizing our potential to draft at the top of the draft.

Those who continue to praise the same approach that has resulted in us being one of the worst teams in the league with no end in sight are truly a sight to behold.

The same approach of picking in the top 10 for the first time in three decades just last year? Or are you upset that we've been truly bad for only two years with this year's draft still ahead? Where do you draw your conclusions from when Holland has had all of one draft under these circumstances?

 

[Red Stanley]

If you're expecting a "true power forward" you're going to be disappointed. Rasmussen doesn't really hit and doesn't really fight.

Hitting and fighting is not what defines a power forward. The fact that a lot of them did is an indication of their toughness and competitiveness that made them so effective. In case you missed it in my giant wall of text: "His primary job will be to create space by driving the net and cause mayhem once he gets there."

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

Hitting and fighting is not what defines a power forward. The fact that a lot of them did is an indication of their toughness and competitiveness that made them so effective. In case you missed it in my giant wall of text: "His primary job will be to create space by driving the net and cause mayhem once he gets there."

Okay, fair enough. That's just not what most people use "true power forward" to mean. It's generally used to refer to the 80s-style guy who would hit, fight anyone who disagreed with his hit, and then get out of the box and score. Repeat.

 

[SoupNazi]

He’s replaced one with a better one. Has he really ever had a guy worth firing til now?

No, he never has. This is a new situation, even for him.

 

[Red Stanley]

Okay, fair enough. That's just not what most people use "true power forward" to mean. It's generally used to refer to the 80s-style guy who would hit, fight anyone who disagreed with his hit, and then get out of the box and score. Repeat.

For sure. It would still be true today had the league not intentionally cracked down on dangerous hits and fighting in particular. I look at a kid like Rasmussen and can totally see him fitting the role. The team rarely crashes net, rarely scores from the point (in large part due to our Dmen not getting shots through) and is terrible on the PP. A guy like that can potentially solve a lot of those problems. In that regard I can see the logic behind the pick. Keep in mind I had no horse in that race. I'm glad others from that draft are doing well. It's good for the game when first round picks work out.

 

[Run the Jewels]

The same approach of picking in the top 10 for the first time in three decades just last year? Or are you upset that we've been truly bad for only two years with this year's draft still ahead? Where do you draw your conclusions from when Holland has had all of one draft under these circumstances?

Sorry, I'm pointing out the fact the GM believed this was a playoff team, busted the cap structure totally out of wack, and had been assembling first round draft picks for nearly 15 years.

You think he's been successful given his stated goals?

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Give me one example of backtalking his coaches.

FAIL.
You can't.

London... I said it has continued, but if you want it unequivocally London was a tire fire where he thought he knew better than one of the best Major Junior operations going.

There is a reason there is so much smoke around AA's attitude and his teammates are willing to take him to task publicly all the time. Why halfway through the season you stopped hearing the organization drop his name along with Mantha and Larkin. Even when they are angry they talk about the steps. Last night Blashill goes through Larkin, Mantha and Bert as young players making strides. They don't include AA because he is a jerk that isn't going to be here much longer, there it is for you. I am hopeful the reason they are not going as far in explaining that all the way is a lesson learned from Mrazek. Trade him and then role him in the ditch is what you're about to see in my opinion. But I see what they mean with his incredibly inconsistent efforts, the guy is brutal for long stretches of the game, his one breakaway isn't worth that trade off.

I get that he has a lot of fans. He is exciting to watch at times. But there isn't a huge mystery to what is going on with him and his completely uneven play sees him get punished at times. I hope he can figure it out, I really do, but I doubt it is going to be here much longer. I would be pretty surprised if he is here this time next year.

 

[NickH8]

Truth.
And that's not to take away from what Bertuzzi did.
But when Bertuzzi was promoted, it was after a spell during which Mantha was struggling with Zetterberg.
Bertuzzi was going to play with Z and Mantha with Larkin.
But Mantha got hurt.
So AA took his place.
AA played the next 8 games on line 1/2 with Larkin. He went 5-4-9 and the Red Wings went 5-3-0 on that stretch.
After AA went 1-1-2 in a 4-2 loss, that was it.
Mantha replaced him.
AA spent most of the rest of the year on Line 3 and line 4
In his last 10, he skated less than 12:32 5 times.

Blashill - a chump of a coach- will tell you he went with who gave him the best chance to win.

AA's top 5 icetime games? Detroit was 5-0.
AA's top 15 icetime games? Detroit was 9-4-2.
AA's bottom 5 icetime games? Detroit was 1-3-1.
AA's bottom 15 icetime games? Detroit was 6-7-2.

Those are some telling stats. I don't think Athanasiou will be a game breaker, but he's definitely a solid offensive winger who does well when he isn't on a defensive line. There's no reason for Helm to be playing with Larkin over him.

 

[Red Stanley]

Sorry, I'm pointing out the fact the GM believed this was a playoff team, busted the cap structure totally out of wack, and had been assembling first round draft picks for nearly 15 years.

You think he's been successful given his stated goals?

Two years ago they were way worse than anyone had anticipated. They were also super injured. Holland was a seller that year. In the preseason he did talk about hoping they were better than the standings. This season showed they really aren't. He sold again and started saying things many have waited to hear for a long time. The bad contracts happened while we were still a playoff team. Since we've missed he's gained a ton of extra picks and will be picking again in the top 10. There's a clear distinction between then and now. Even if his philosophy has shifted gradually over the past few years (clearly indicating that he has anticipated all of this) the reality of picking high is new. Therefore a sample of one isn't enough to claim some sort of continuous pattern given how radically the circumstances have changed over the last two years. You could very well end up being right. I will continue to be patient and will reserve judgment for when all these top 10 picks show us what they've got at the NHL level. Right now I'm happy at least Larkin is playing like a top pick. That could mean a lot in the long run.

 

[cjm502]

I've said it before, but I don't care how well anyone thinks Holland has done this last year or two. People seem to forget he is the one who got us in to this mess in the first place and handcuffed the team with long term unmovable contracts to subpar players.

I don't want to hear the "well the Illitchs pressured him to keep the playoff streak alive when we should have been rebuilding!!!" excuse either. Do people not think the front office and ownership met every off season to discuss the teams future? Kenny went in to every season saying "I like our team", and I doubt he was telling the ownership any different. The GM telling ownership our roster needs a rebuild and can't compete in the playoffs is a GM saying they are not doing their job very well. Its been rumored that he overvalues a lot of our players and his words and actions seem to back that up. He instead let the results of failure speak for themselves, and started the rebuild years late. Loyalty is generally a good thing, but this organization is loyal to a fault from top to bottom.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Those who continue to praise the same approach that has resulted in us being one of the worst teams in the league with no end in sight are truly a sight to behold.

The end is in sight when it happens.

Calling it the "same approach" is complete and utter BS too. You really see no difference between drafting 20-30 and drafting top 10? No difference between having 6-7 picks or 12-13 picks?

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

The end is in sight when it happens.

Calling it the "same approach" is complete and utter BS too. You really see no difference between drafting 20-30 and drafting top 10? No difference between having 6-7 picks or 12-13 picks?

Wait a second pavel

You have specifically said before teams don't need to draft top ten or even top five to draft elite players.

Why now the change?

 

[Pavels Dog]

Wait a second pavel

You have specifically said before teams don't need to draft top ten or even top five to draft elite players.

Why now the change?

You don’t. But chances are much higher at the top of the draft. It’s not hard to grasp. Drafting 15th is better than 25th. Drafting 5th is better than 15th. You can still find elite at 25th or in the later rounds but it’s much harder, especially if you don’t have extra picks (i.e. you’re a seller). I’ve never believed in building a team on only late rounders or 1st rounders or that only top 3 or top 5 picks matter. Gather talent everywhere, but there’s zero doubt you have a better shot at finding it with 7 picks in the top 100 instead of 2 or 3.

 

[Heaton]

I wish Holland would be more transparent with his plans over the next 2 years after re-signing. Going into this season Holland did everything he could to ice a playoff team, what's his focus going to be next year? Signing more veterans on July 1st? Trading contracts/veterans out for younger players? I would hope that a brilliant hockey mind like Ken Holland would realize at this point that next season is probably going to be worse than this season and he needs to prepare his team/management. For that reason, I hope Zetterberg gets a clearer message to avoid some unnecessary frustration.

 

[obey86]

I wish Holland would be more transparent with his plans over the next 2 years after re-signing. Going into this season Holland did everything he could to ice a playoff team, what's his focus going to be next year? Signing more veterans on July 1st? Trading contracts/veterans out for younger players? I would hope that a brilliant hockey mind like Ken Holland would realize at this point that next season is probably going to be worse than this season and he needs to prepare his team/management. For that reason, I hope Zetterberg gets a clearer message to avoid some unnecessary frustration.

Signing a single veteran defenseman (Daley) to a relatively inexpensive deal is doing everything he could to ice a playoff team?

 

[obey86]

You don’t. But chances are much higher at the top of the draft. It’s not hard to grasp. Drafting 15th is better than 25th. Drafting 5th is better than 15th. You can still find elite at 25th or in the later rounds but it’s much harder, especially if you don’t have extra picks (i.e. you’re a seller). I’ve never believed in building a team on only late rounders or 1st rounders or that only top 3 or top 5 picks matter. Gather talent everywhere, but there’s zero doubt you have a better shot at finding it with 7 picks in the top 100 instead of 2 or 3.

Teams like Philly and Boston have been able to consistently find good players later in the 1st round (and draft) to stay competitive.

I think what Boston has done over the last few seasons to get back to contender status is impressive. I remember everyone saying they should trade their best players, tear it down, and start over after a few down seasons. Good thing they didn't do that.

I still contend that there was nothing wrong with trying a "rebuild a fly" approach as it CAN work. Holland and company just didn't draft the right players and make the right moves to be successful. It wasn't the APPROACH that was the issue, it was the EXECUTION that was the issue.

 

[Shaman464]

Teams like Philly and Boston have been able to consistently find good players later in the 1st round (and draft) to stay competitive.

I think what Boston has done over the last few seasons to get back to contender status is impressive. I remember everyone saying they should trade their best players, tear it down, and start over after a few down seasons. Good thing they didn't do that.

I still contend that there was nothing wrong with trying a "rebuild a fly" approach as it CAN work. Holland and company just didn't draft the right players and make the right moves to be successful. It wasn't the APPROACH that was the issue, it was the EXECUTION that was the issue.

Except the approach is literally the one that the league has set up ever more complex rules to try to stop. You CAN swim up stream in a rushing river, but your odds of getting anywhere are very low. It was also telling that Holland, as time went along further and further tempered expectations. It started off with rebuild on the fly to get back to being a contender, then it was anything can happen, then it was if you expect cups you're in the wrong business, now its we want to at least be in the playoff picture some years. And this was all because the three essential tools of any rebuild, on the fly, or otherwise weren't being used. Holland refused to trade expiring contracts of role players to make room for youth and see what they were capable of. He also tried to rebuild through free agency, which seems at this point untenable, instead of going after primarily lower cost vets (who would either be easily turned at the deadline, or would play above their contract and help the team compete). Finally he hasn't built a scouting team that is able to find diamonds in the rough, and instead values grit and personality, which is fine, but rarely will it replace the elite talent Detroit lost.

In the end the rebuild on the fly wasn't a rebuild and it wasn't on the fly. It was code for keep the playoff streak alive at all costs.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Those are some telling stats. I don't think Athanasiou will be a game breaker, but he's definitely a solid offensive winger who does well when he isn't on a defensive line. There's no reason for Helm to be playing with Larkin over him.

They like to distribute Larkin against the other teams top forward when possible. So there is your reason.