Helene St. James Holland (probably) Won't Re-Sign Quincey, Richards (before July 1st (if at all))

Retire91

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I would hope the coach realizes that riding Z for 22 minutes a night isn't going to get it done next season and that Holland has no influence either way (mostly because I worry that Holland/the-rest-of-the-FO were the ones pressing to keep Z and Dats on the ice for The Streak).

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I still don't see how the Wings can move Z at this point. Recapture would be too dangerous. At least if he's controlled, I'd guess there's some shot of a LTIR-retirement or something, to minimize the impact. For all the talk, it just seems like we kind of got boned by the league when they added the recapture rules, for Z's contract at least.

I am kinda at peace with recapture, the Zetts contract was cap circumvention and I think they league designed it a lot with Zetts contract in mind, also Kovy and Pronger but LTIR will be the loophole even if Zetts goes to another team IMO

The leauge really needs to do something about aging and the cap though. Its kinda hard to have players that are 37 years old and older taking up 7.5 million of your cap. I think the General managers need to start considering being more strict and forcing players to take new contracts at 35 to not get stuck in this position.
 

Inspiration

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It's ridiculous to complain about Z's contract. No reasonable person would have expected the NHL to retroactively punish teams for front loaded contracts.

Kind of an unrelated note, but the recapture rule isn't really a punishment (at least not by my definition). All the recapture rule does is ensure that teams recognize a cap hit equal to the amount of cash they pay to a player. If Zetterberg retires with two years left on his deal, the Red Wings will have paid him $71 million over the life of the deal. Without the recapture rule, the Wings would have recognized a cumulative cap hit of $60.8 million (rounding). With the recapture rule, the Wings would ultimately receive a cumulative cap hit of ... $71 million, exactly equal the cash they paid him. Given that the Wings also receive substantial deferral on the recapture amounts without any penalty, I'd say the current recapture rule is more than fair to teams that had existing long term contracts at the time the rule was implemented.

If Wings (or any other team for that matter) couldn't see at least the possibility of the league implementing an equitable solution on these long term deals, then that indicates a significant lack of foresight on their part. For the record, I'm not saying they did; they may have considered it and ultimately deemed the risk to be acceptable.
 

PuckDynasty

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It's kind of like saying that the Wings shouldn't try and "Pronger" Datsyuk's contract because eventually the league is going to change the rules.

I remember thinking how absurd it was at the time that the league didn't grandfather in the long term contracts that were already signed. Also, it isn't like the Wings were the only team that was doing this. Like everything else, it was a brilliant way to get around the cap, and then someone takes it too far and ruins it for everyone else.
 

Frk It

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Kind of an unrelated note, but the recapture rule isn't really a punishment (at least not by my definition). All the recapture rule does is ensure that teams recognize a cap hit equal to the amount of cash they pay to a player. If Zetterberg retires with two years left on his deal, the Red Wings will have paid him $71 million over the life of the deal. Without the recapture rule, the Wings would have recognized a cumulative cap hit of $60.8 million (rounding). With the recapture rule, the Wings would ultimately receive a cumulative cap hit of ... $71 million, exactly equal the cash they paid him. Given that the Wings also receive substantial deferral on the recapture amounts without any penalty, I'd say the current recapture rule is more than fair to teams that had existing long term contracts at the time the rule was implemented.

If Wings (or any other team for that matter) couldn't see at least the possibility of the league implementing an equitable solution on these long term deals, then that indicates a significant lack of foresight on their part. For the record, I'm not saying they did; they may have considered it and ultimately deemed the risk to be acceptable.

I think they thought that eventually the league would fix the situation by limiting the term length on contracts, which they did. So no further circumvention could happen moving forward.

They had no grounds to retroactively punish the deals that were made when there was no existing rule to prohibit it, and I could see why teams would believe that as well. It was total ********, to be frank.

It would be like dropping down the speed limit from 55 to 45 MPH today, and then going back and giving speeding tickets to everyone who was driving 55 MPH last week. You should not be allowed to do that kind of crap. Set the rule right to begin with.
 

odin1981

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smiths followers like him not because of his potential(thats as ****.. of an argument as liking a guy because of his past) but because on a defence that is slow and immobile and unwilling to hit and stick up for itself and teammates smith does all of those things and when a team isnt winning cup after cup after cup, people, real hockey fans, appreciate those qualities

smith isnt a top pairing dman or even a good middle pairing one but he is much better and more useful right now to this team then every single dman on this club making more then him for things they may have done in the past while doing less at the moment, that is where the admiration stems from

"if we're gonna suck, lets not pay guys 4 plus million to suck, lets pay a guy 2 million and be entertained from time to time..."

Smith makes 2.75 million per. As a ****ing #6-7. That is worse than what Jakub Kindl made as a #6. We can at least move this bum. So do so and get a pick that will hopefully turn into a meaningful defender instead of **** for brains Smith. The "offensive d'man" that produces <25 points a year.

We cannot move Big Rig but with his hip issues when he has had enough (probably 1-2 years after we start missing) he is a easy LTIRE just as Kronner and Z will also be.

Clear 2.75 off the cap and get a mid round pick.
 

Ezekial

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Smith makes 2.75 million per. As a ****ing #6-7. That is worse than what Jakub Kindl made as a #6. We can at least move this bum. So do so and get a pick that will hopefully turn into a meaningful defender instead of **** for brains Smith. The "offensive d'man" that produces <25 points a year.

We cannot move Big Rig but with his hip issues when he has had enough (probably 1-2 years after we start missing) he is a easy LTIRE just as Kronner and Z will also be.

Clear 2.75 off the cap and get a mid round pick.

Can only LTIR 2 cap hits.
 

WingedWheel1987

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Kind of an unrelated note, but the recapture rule isn't really a punishment (at least not by my definition). All the recapture rule does is ensure that teams recognize a cap hit equal to the amount of cash they pay to a player. If Zetterberg retires with two years left on his deal, the Red Wings will have paid him $71 million over the life of the deal. Without the recapture rule, the Wings would have recognized a cumulative cap hit of $60.8 million (rounding). With the recapture rule, the Wings would ultimately receive a cumulative cap hit of ... $71 million, exactly equal the cash they paid him. Given that the Wings also receive substantial deferral on the recapture amounts without any penalty, I'd say the current recapture rule is more than fair to teams that had existing long term contracts at the time the rule was implemented.

If Wings (or any other team for that matter) couldn't see at least the possibility of the league implementing an equitable solution on these long term deals, then that indicates a significant lack of foresight on their part. For the record, I'm not saying they did; they may have considered it and ultimately deemed the risk to be acceptable.

But no NHL team would have given out those contracts if they knew any future rule change would be applied retroactively.

You just don't expect that kind of awful decision making to happen in pro sports. It would have been reasonable to expect the NHL to close the loop hole, but to close it and then apply the new rule to contracts handed out 3-5 years prior to the new rule being established is straight up incompetence at the highest level.

There is a reason why ex post facto laws are banned in virtually every country on the planet.
 

Vatican Roulette

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But no NHL team would have given out those contracts if they knew any future rule change would be applied retroactively.

You just don't expect that kind of awful decision making to happen in pro sports. It would have been reasonable to expect the NHL to close the loop hole, but to close it and then apply the new rule to contracts handed out 3-5 years prior to the new rule being established is straight up incompetence at the highest level.

There is a reason why ex post facto laws are banned in virtually every country on the planet.

Very good post.

It's BS that those contracts signed under rules of the NHL and the NHLPA get any kind of retro. in a new CBA.

Some lawyer should be able to tear that apart.
 

Bench

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Very good post.

It's BS that those contracts signed under rules of the NHL and the NHLPA get any kind of retro. in a new CBA.

Some lawyer should be able to tear that apart.

I think the issue is everyone signed off on it. Chicago gets hit hard by it too, with Hossa, who has 5 years remaining, which I believe takes him to age 42.

Hossa is an amazing player, and I wish he would have stayed a Wing, but imagine having that deal, plus Zetterberg, and Franzen riding out until 2021. During the healthy years that's a leathal trio, but starting next year it would be a heavy burden, even with LTIR.
 

jkutswings

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But no NHL team would have given out those contracts if they knew any future rule change would be applied retroactively.

You just don't expect that kind of awful decision making to happen in pro sports. It would have been reasonable to expect the NHL to close the loop hole, but to close it and then apply the new rule to contracts handed out 3-5 years prior to the new rule being established is straight up incompetence at the highest level.

There is a reason why ex post facto laws are banned in virtually every country on the planet.
You guys are missing the point.

Let's say that the recapture law was voided TODAY. IT'S STILL AN AWFUL DEAL.

They signed the guy to a TWELVE YEAR DEAL for 73 MILLION DOLLARS. Since signing that contract, he had 3 more good years, and then became a mix of injuries and robust mediocrity. For heaven's sake, the guy hasn't even cracked 20 goals for the last 4 years. AND HE STILL HAS 5 YEARS LEFT ON THE DEAL!!!

Now sure, you're going to tell me, "But without recapture, they just bury the deal, and they don't owe another cent." Which does nothing to change the fact that he's been significantly under performing for the last 4 years, relative to what they have ALREADY paid him. The contract was objectively a bad deal, even if it was deleted TODAY.

You. Don't. Sign. Players. To. That. Long. Of. A. Term.

Period.

Not 7 years, let alone 12. It was a dumb move at the moment it was made, whether recapture takes effect or not, because there was ZERO chance that the player would be worth his salary for at least a third of the contract, perhaps half of it. And expecting the NHL to be totally cool with a 12 year deal, when statistics say that the player will be garbage for AT LEAST the last 3-4 years, is naive. The excuse, "Other teams got away with it! Why not us too?" Is classic rationalization of unethical behavior. You don't exploit the rules to what is obviously an unfair extent, then complain when they say you can't do it anymore, because whether you COULD have or not at the time, common sense should tell you that you SHOULD NOT have.

Henrik Zetterberg should've been traded after the Chicago series - and I said so at the time, since he still had value, and the run was clearly over - and yet here we are, debating whether a player who clearly is a shell of what he used to be, should be subject to financially penalizing the team or not, based on a questionable rule enaction. HE NEVER SHOULD'VE BEEN PAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! In 2009, he should've been given a 3-5 year deal, then either put on short-term deals, traded, or cut, depending on his year-to-year performance.
 

Ezekial

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His salary was considerably lower in the latter stages of the contract so it wasn't much of a handcuff.

Plain and simple the NHL shouldn't have to be able to do what they did. **** the 12 years, that wouldn't have mattered in the initial contract.



Also - traded after the Chicago series?? Do you know what team you follow?
 

ricky0034

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You guys are missing the point.

Let's say that the recapture law was voided TODAY. IT'S STILL AN AWFUL DEAL.

They signed the guy to a TWELVE YEAR DEAL for 73 MILLION DOLLARS. Since signing that contract, he had 3 more good years, and then became a mix of injuries and robust mediocrity. For heaven's sake, the guy hasn't even cracked 20 goals for the last 4 years. AND HE STILL HAS 5 YEARS LEFT ON THE DEAL!!!

Now sure, you're going to tell me, "But without recapture, they just bury the deal, and they don't owe another cent." Which does nothing to change the fact that he's been significantly under performing for the last 4 years, relative to what they have ALREADY paid him. The contract was objectively a bad deal, even if it was deleted TODAY.

You. Don't. Sign. Players. To. That. Long. Of. A. Term.

Period.

Not 7 years, let alone 12. It was a dumb move at the moment it was made, whether recapture takes effect or not, because there was ZERO chance that the player would be worth his salary for at least a third of the contract, perhaps half of it. And expecting the NHL to be totally cool with a 12 year deal, when statistics say that the player will be garbage for AT LEAST the last 3-4 years, is naive. The excuse, "Other teams got away with it! Why not us too?" Is classic rationalization of unethical behavior. You don't exploit the rules to what is obviously an unfair extent, then complain when they say you can't do it anymore, because whether you COULD have or not at the time, common sense should tell you that you SHOULD NOT have.

Henrik Zetterberg should've been traded after the Chicago series - and I said so at the time, since he still had value, and the run was clearly over - and yet here we are, debating whether a player who clearly is a shell of what he used to be, should be subject to financially penalizing the team or not, based on a questionable rule enaction. HE NEVER SHOULD'VE BEEN PAID IN THE FIRST PLACE!!! In 2009, he should've been given a 3-5 year deal, then either put on short-term deals, traded, or cut, depending on his year-to-year performance.

yeah he was so awful in years 4 and 5

should have just waived him after year 4 where he was barely over PPG and only 13th in the league in points


hell even two years ago he put up 66 points which was 23rd in the league
 

jkutswings

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yeah he was so awful in years 4 and 5

should have just waived him after year 4 where he was barely over PPG and only 13th in the league in points


hell even two years ago he put up 66 points which was 23rd in the league
I didn't say he was awful in years 4 and 5. I said he should've been signed to a reasonable contract, instead of the monstrosity they inked him to, and that the organization should've acted sensibly, relative to their competitive status.

The run was over after 2012. Not strictly because of an erosion of talent, but because the franchise fundamentally changed their philosophical approach.

For years and years, Illitch opened the purse strings, and bought whatever toys he wanted, with no cap limit, and we were spoiled. Then the cap came in, and things got more challenging, but it was still definitely a scenario of, "We're approaching every season with the goal of winning a Cup." They signed free agents, made deadline deals, the whole nine yards.

After winning in 2008 (and choking it away in 2009), they lost back to back second round matchups to San Jose. On the one hand, it was (at least to me) obvious that the Sharks were bigger and faster than Detroit throughout the entirety of each of those series, but you could still chalk it up to a bad matchup, and say that the team was still very much in contention, with a tweak or two to the roster.

Then they lost to Nashville in the first round. The Nashville Friggin' Predators. That team who had, until recently, been the Wings' personal whipping boy, both in the regular season and the playoffs. And they lost IN THE FIRST ROUND.

Now I'm not saying that Detroit should NEVER lose that early. That's ridiculous, and they had even done so on multiple occasions, in prior seasons, both on their way up to championships and on their way down. But the key here is that now a trend had developed, clearly indicating that the existing roster needed at least some noticeable help, in order to extend their window of contention.

And that summer they did nothing tangible to change things.

It was at that moment that I knew the run was over, simply because the actions of the franchise had made it clear that their priorities had shifted.

And that's certainly not the end of the world, but it means that you need to be consistent in your philosophy. So while you certainly don't have to blow it up, at a minimum, there's no more spending picks for minor deadline band-aids, and no more bringing back ancient re-treads on the third and fourth lines. You gradually inject some youth, and let the chips fall where they may.

But as we all know, that's not what happened, either.

So we have the worst of both worlds, where the team no longer has a chance to win anything substantial, but are still caught in several bad contracts, and are delaying the true evaluation of their youth, so they can't truly rebuild yet.

Bringing it back to Zetterberg specifically, Holland should have:

1) Never been dumb enough to sign ANYBODY to a 12 year deal, recapture rule or not. Gretzky in his prime doesn't deserve a 12 year deal, because even HE would be half the guy you signed by those later years. 12 years is simply out of bounds in professional sports.

2) Made up his mind on what this franchise was in the years of 2012-2014. He had one foot in the past, and one in the present, with no clear direction for the future. Guys like Hank (and Pavel) were kinda hung out to try, getting no help to get another ring, but also not even being considered to be traded to a real contender.

3) Depending on the answer to #2, if your run is over, and you still have value to an asset - particularly after the Chicago series, when hindsight confirms it as an uptick in value at best, and a fluke at worst - you get PROACTIVE. Even if you don't actually trade a guy like Hank, you SHOP him. Last I checked, phone calls are cheap, but - to our knowledge - it was never even on the table to see what you could get for a Henrik Zetterberg. WHY? If a franchise is so beholden to its veterans that it can't even gauge their value in a deal, then something has gone horribly horribly wrong.

Sports is fundamentally entertainment, and if there's one thing fans are universally entertained by, it's winning. So if your degree of success has measurably declined, why wouldn't you at least CONDISDER all your options, rather than bury your head in the sand, continue to eat bad contracts, and hide behind mediocrity disguised as a playoff streak? Either they're really that naive as to think this roster has had a chance during the last few years, or worse, they're that lazy, to just close the door on any meaningful play, in favor of some easy dollars for a couple of homes games in the first round before tee times.

I could be the only person on this island, and that's fine. Everybody has a right to their own opinion, and to disagree with mine as much as they like. But the entire lack of identity and direction of this franchise, for AT LEAST FOUR YEARS, is downright embarrassing. I'm fine with struggling, and even losing, if it seems to be part of a bigger plan that makes sense. But I'm definitely not fine with what seems like a combination of needless blunders and mailing it in for several years in a row. I desperately hope that this summer is different, and some tangible changes are made, because it feels like the franchise is avoiding a true rebuild at all costs, but in favor of slowly withering away until the eventual outcome is the same, only with an additional few years of wasted opportunity.
 

Bench

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I could be the only person on this island, and that's fine.

You're so lonely your best friend is a volleyball.

The intention of the contract was one could retire and the cap is gone. Your musings about Gretzky and the Predator series is completely irrelevant to the primary point.

Detroit isn't alone in this, as discussed, since Chicago, who has probably navigated the cap better than anybody the last decade, is also stuck with the same scenario. And the NHL let the Devil's out of the Kovalchuk deal, which was 15 years. Wrap your head around that. Point is, this was the standard. Your powers of hindsight are very strong, though, no question there!
 

jkutswings

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The intention of the contract was one could retire and the cap is gone. Your musings about Gretzky and the Predator series is completely irrelevant to the primary point.
And I'm saying that the NHL should've vetoed the deal right off the bat. And never should've let New Jersey do what they did. Or Chicago. As much as I dislike Bettman, I would happily give him powers to nix nonsense like that instantaneously, because it's bad for the sport.

Some people have this misunderstanding that professional sports leagues are subject to 100% of the same workings of modern democracy. They aren't. A commish can often act on his own in the best interest of the league, and Bettman definitely should have in this instance.
 

The Zermanator

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And I'm saying that the NHL should've vetoed the deal right off the bat. And never should've let New Jersey do what they did. Or Chicago. As much as I dislike Bettman, I would happily give him powers to nix nonsense like that instantaneously, because it's bad for the sport.

Some people have this misunderstanding that professional sports leagues are subject to 100% of the same workings of modern democracy. They aren't. A commish can often act on his own in the best interest of the league, and Bettman definitely should have in this instance.

I doubt the league can veto a contract that fits within their existing rules. You think the NHLPA would have just rolled over on their backs for a belly rub if the NHL 'vetoed' a star player's contract worth tens of millions?
 

jkutswings

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I doubt the league can veto a contract that fits within their existing rules. You think the NHLPA would have just rolled over on their backs for a belly rub if the NHL 'vetoed' a star player's contract worth tens of millions?
The sport has had 3 recent lockouts, all of which ended up favoring the owners. If I were the league, I wouldn't exactly be afraid of the players' union.

At this point, what's done is done, but I guess I'm just glad that recapture exists now, because I think it's wrong that a team would be able to get away with signing such a bad contract. The whole point of a salary cap is to provide a relatively even playing field, where smarter decisions result in greater success, and these types of deals very much felt like cheating - even at the time they were made - whether they were against the letter of the law or not.
 

vladdy16

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I can't imagine a return that you could've gotten for 40 in the last few years that would be remotely worth it.

The Red Wings have been lucky to have him. He's darn near Yzerman level in his leadership and willingness to play through injury. Definitely a net positive for the org no matter how you cut it. There are other places to look as to where the Wings have gone wrong.(obviously overusing 13 and 40 is one of those things)
 

Bench

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Wait, this is the Datsyuk thread too? :popcorn:

Yeah that bothered me, too.

So guess what? I moved all the recent posts about Datsyuk into the Datsyuk thread. So clean and tidy. Do you hear that squeak? Mr. Clean ain't got nothing on me!

So resume talk about Quincey, Richards, that kinda stuff. We have a newer free agency thread going for talk about that.
 

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