Helene St. James Holland (probably) Won't Re-Sign Quincey, Richards (before July 1st (if at all))

[SpookyTsuki]

This train of thought is absolutely ridiculous.

If you want leadership you sign someone like Brad Richards to a 1 year/$3 million contract. You don't take on a $6M cap hit/5 year contract for "leadership".

And Zetterberg marketing a team? Huh? You think fans of a team who didn't give a crap about Zetterberg when he was actually good (because they aren't Wings fans) are going to come to the arena just to see a broken down, slow, 36-39 year old player? At this stage in his career Zetterberg is one of the most painful, boring players in the NHL to watch. The guy can barely skate and isn't good anymore. I'm sure the fans will be coming out in droves to see the slowest player in the NHL skate around the perimeter protecting the puck before he falls down time after time.

You don't know how a casual fans brain operates. Zetterberg gets on the team they already get more money then they lose.

 

[Heaton]

I would dance for joy if either Zetterberg or Kronwall got picked by an expansion team. Detroit is long overdue to stop overpaying guys for what they USED to do, and start treating the rebuild seriously. Protect your best young players, and anybody you could still get good trade value for, and if the new team on the block does you a favor by volunteering to take one of your several bad contacts, then celebrate and move on.

Z earned this contract when he was in his prime, he didn't sign the contract based on prior accomplishments.

We all knew these years would come and why people groaned when Franzen and Z signed the deals. People didn't care early on because they were still elite. This just goes to show that Holland (and most other GMs) have no ability to manage the cap effectively. This team has a ton of dead weight, even guys like Tatar and Nyquist are going to be paid far past what they're worth, at least Z earned his contract and is only falling off when he's at the end of his career. Anyone complaining about Z should focus their frustration on Holland, it's not Z's fault he signed a 13 year deal, that was what was right for him, it's Holland's job to look after the team's cap structure, not Zetterberg.

 

[Frk It]

Z earned this contract when he was in his prime, he didn't sign the contract based on prior accomplishments.

We all knew these years would come and why people groaned when Franzen and Z signed the deals. People didn't care early on because they were still elite. This just goes to show that Holland (and most other GMs) have no ability to manage the cap effectively.

Recapture didn't exist when the deals were signed. There was little reason to groan, to be honest.

 

[Heaton]

Recapture didn't exist when the deals were signed. There was little reason to groan, to be honest.

Everyone still knew that Franzen and Z would be playing well past their cap hits reflected their abilities. Even if recapture never was implemented, Z would still be playing for the next few years.

 

[obey86]

You don't know how a casual fans brain operates. Zetterberg gets on the team they already get more money then they lose.

What does this even mean?

 

[obey86]

Z earned this contract when he was in his prime, he didn't sign the contract based on prior accomplishments.

We all knew these years would come and why people groaned when Franzen and Z signed the deals. People didn't care early on because they were still elite. This just goes to show that Holland (and most other GMs) have no ability to manage the cap effectively. This team has a ton of dead weight, even guys like Tatar and Nyquist are going to be paid far past what they're worth, at least Z earned his contract and is only falling off when he's at the end of his career. Anyone complaining about Z should focus their frustration on Holland, it's not Z's fault he signed a 13 year deal, that was what was right for him, it's Holland's job to look after the team's cap structure, not Zetterberg.

I have no problem with the Z or Kronwall contracts in totality. In fact, I would do them again if given the chance, even if they aren't good now. That doesn't mean the Wings NOW should keep Zetterberg or Kronwall at all costs however.

 

[Heaton]

I have no problem with the Z or Kronwall contracts. In fact, I would do them again if given the chance, even if they aren't good now. That doesn't mean the Wings NOW should keep Zetterberg or Kronwall at all costs however.

The Wings could move Kronwall, but not Z (unless they buy him out). But honestly, Z is probably near the bottom of contracts that need to be moved, he can still be useful in a different role. Holland has saddled this team with some horrendous deals, we'll be paying Weiss for the next 5 years, Abdelkader for 7 years, Ericsson forever, Howard to sit on the bench. This team is beyond ****ed.

 

[Retire91]

Z earned this contract when he was in his prime, he didn't sign the contract based on prior accomplishments.

We all knew these years would come and why people groaned when Franzen and Z signed the deals. People didn't care early on because they were still elite. This just goes to show that Holland (and most other GMs) have no ability to manage the cap effectively. This team has a ton of dead weight, even guys like Tatar and Nyquist are going to be paid far past what they're worth, at least Z earned his contract and is only falling off when he's at the end of his career. Anyone complaining about Z should focus their frustration on Holland, it's not Z's fault he signed a 13 year deal, that was what was right for him, it's Holland's job to look after the team's cap structure, not Zetterberg.

Its Holland's job to continually improve the team and recognize that the team is badly in need of transition. The declining Zetterberg with the 6 million cap hit neither helps the team nor aids transition. He is currently collecting checks based on past performance. Holland needs to recognize this and move him or make sure his coach plays him in a role where he can be useful like on the 3rd or 2nd line. Then he needs to fill that void on the top line with someone other than a player like Brad Richards. Its not unreasonable as a fan to be upset with Zetterberg's future on this team nor Holland for not providing a solution.

If GM's want to handcuff themselves in the future with these contracts its their prerogative but to just sit with his hands in his pockets like he has no idea what to do is unacceptable. Abby is another contract that is going to hurt in 3-4 years. You are absolutely right these deals are horrible for the cap.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

What does this even mean?

Some people think they're gonna lose money

If some team gets zetterberg all they would have to do is hype him up alittle and then he's a money maker for them. Just because he's "not a good player". Doesn't mean Las Vegas won't pick him up

 

[jkutswings]

Some people think they're gonna lose money

If some team gets zetterberg all they would have to do is hype him up alittle and then he's a money maker for them. Just because he's "not a good player". Doesn't mean Las Vegas won't pick him up

He sells jerseys for opening night...then shows his age within 20 games and rapidly becomes not worth his salary. The guy USED to be great, but is now cooked. I'd ship him for a bag of pucks, if only to shed this ridiculous identity of being the golden retirement home of the NHL.

 

[njx9]

Holland needs to recognize this and move him or make sure his coach plays him in a role where he can be useful like on the 3rd or 2nd line.

I would hope the coach realizes that riding Z for 22 minutes a night isn't going to get it done next season and that Holland has no influence either way (mostly because I worry that Holland/the-rest-of-the-FO were the ones pressing to keep Z and Dats on the ice for The Streak).

---

I still don't see how the Wings can move Z at this point. Recapture would be too dangerous. At least if he's controlled, I'd guess there's some shot of a LTIR-retirement or something, to minimize the impact. For all the talk, it just seems like we kind of got boned by the league when they added the recapture rules, for Z's contract at least.

 

[jkutswings]

Except that even before the rule was instituted, common sense says that more often than not, signing a player to a long-term deal towards the end of their career is a bad idea. When you're making the conference finals or better, your current success can sometimes buffer that bad decision, but it's statistically still a bad decision.

I hated the Hank and Franzen deals before the ink was dry. I just wish I could say that Detroit has learned their lesson (but I've yet to see evidence that they have).

 

[Frk It]

Except that even before the rule was instituted, common sense says that more often than not, signing a player to a long-term deal towards the end of their career is a bad idea. When you're making the conference finals or better, your current success can sometimes buffer that bad decision, but it's statistically still a bad decision.

I hated the Hank and Franzen deals before the ink was dry. I just wish I could say that Detroit has learned their lesson (but I've yet to see evidence that they have).

Common sense said that you could drive a caphit down by offering a ridiculously long contract, and if that player retired early, the caphit and contract disappeared altogether. It was an outright loophole that many teams elected to capitalize on.

I really, really don't get harping on these contracts.

If the NHL never instituted a recapture rule because they got caught with their pants down, these contracts are both steals and complete non-issues.

 

[njx9]

Common sense said that you could drive a caphit down by offering a ridiculously long contract, and if that player retired early, the caphit and contract disappeared altogether. It was an outright loophole that many teams elected to capitalize on.

Exactly. If Z could actually retire tomorrow without screwing us completely, I doubt many people would be complaining as much. But we unexpectedly became 'on the hook' for his entire cap hit, after the deal, regardless of his retirement. It sucks now, and it would be great if the FO would quit signing other stupidly long deals, but I find it hard to blame Holland for giving a star player (at the time) a contract that was expected to run out the day that player hung up his skates, with the benefit of a lower, end-to-end cap hit.

 

[jkutswings]

Common sense said that you could drive a caphit down by offering a ridiculously long contract, and if that player retired early, the caphit and contract disappeared altogether. It was an outright loophole that many teams elected to capitalize on.

I really, really don't get harping on these contracts.

If the NHL never instituted a recapture rule because they got caught with their pants down, these contracts are both steals and complete non-issues.

Wrong. Had the rule never been instituted, the practice would still be an obvious attempt at circumvention, and on principle would be a bad business practice.

Players over 35 have a negligible chance at deserving more than a 1 or 2 year deal, because it’s rare that they haven’t either already fallen off the table, or are on the precipice of doing so. Ergo, even without the recapture scenario, it was a bad move by Holland to roll out the red carpet for guys that haven’t been elite for several years, because the only options would be to either eventually eat a lot of salary, or to go the snake oil salesman route, and hide behind a practice that, even were it not illegal, would be transparently immoral, and would eventually upset enough owners that they’d change the rules anyway, so he'd be foolish to not see it coming. You can't engage in an objectively shady practice, then be surprised that it gets outlawed.

I’d sooner lose the occasional All-Star at the tail end of his prime, than do what Detroit did, and end up stuck with several very expensive lemons.

 

[Frk It]

Wrong. Had the rule never been instituted, the practice would still be an obvious attempt at circumvention, and on principle would be a bad business practice.

Players over 35 have a negligible chance at deserving more than a 1 or 2 year deal, because it’s rare that they haven’t either already fallen off the table, or are on the precipice of doing so. Ergo, even without the recapture scenario, it was a bad move by Holland to roll out the red carpet for guys that haven’t been elite for several years, because the only options would be to either eventually eat a lot of salary, or to go the snake oil salesman route, and hide behind a practice that, even were it not illegal, would be transparently immoral, and would eventually upset enough owners that they’d change the rules anyway, so he'd be foolish to not see it coming.

I’d sooner lose the occasional All-Star at the tail end of his prime, than do what Detroit did, and end up stuck with several very expensive lemons.

And why is circumvention an issue when there is no rule preventing it at the moment?

Or are you supposed to have a crystal ball and know the rule is coming?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Common sense said that you could drive a caphit down by offering a ridiculously long contract, and if that player retired early, the caphit and contract disappeared altogether. It was an outright loophole that many teams elected to capitalize on.

I really, really don't get harping on these contracts.

If the NHL never instituted a recapture rule because they got caught with their pants down, these contracts are both steals and complete non-issues.

Exactly. And it's kind of crazy that the league can go back and amend the conditions under which a contract was signed.

GM's are making their decisions based on the situation at the time, but the league can just go back and change the rules?

 

[njx9]

You can't engage in an objectively shady practice, then be surprised that it gets outlawed.

You can certainly be surprised when the league, out of the blue, retroactively punishes you for a contract that was perfectly valid and legal, well after you sign it. Suggesting otherwise is ridiculous and based on pure hindsight. I doubt you'd find a single person anywhere who thought Z's deal would be so problematic because of an unknown, unrumored rule change that was backdated to affect previously signed contracts.

 

[jkutswings]

Hogwash.

The moment the Kovalchuk deal went public, everybody saw it for what it was: a blatant circumvention of the cap. Anybody NOT thinking that the league would eventually guard itself against that type of shady dealmaking is deluding themself.

Now can you argue that the new rules should only affect contracts going forward? Sure, and then the legal system can decide who's right. But professional sports leagues are (necessarily) far closer to dictatorships than democracies, and the NHL WANTING to prevent these types of deals was a given as soon as they started happening, because the contracts are objectively dishonest, and give teams an advantage they shouldn't have.

 

[Lil Sebastian Cossa]

Hogwash.

The moment the Kovalchuk deal went public, everybody saw it for what it was: a blatant circumvention of the cap. Anybody NOT thinking that the league would eventually guard itself against that type of shady dealmaking is deluding themself.

Now can you argue that the rules should only affect contracts going forward? Sure, and then the legal system can decide who's right. But professional sports leagues are (necessarily) far closer to dictatorships than democracies, and the NHL WANTING to prevent these types of deals was a given as soon as they started happening, because the contracts are objectively dishonest, and give teams an advantage they shouldn't have.

You realize that Zetterberg was already over a year into his deal by the time Kovalchuk signed, right?

Z was earlier than most of the deals.

e: The REAL catalyst for looking closer at the deals was Hossa when it came out that Chicago talked to him about retiring early. Then the Kovalchuk contract came and just bombed the whole system.

Z and Franzen, because of Detroit's reputation of players playing forever (Yzerman, Lidstrom, etc.) got the "it's a long deal, but the Wings aren't gonna have them quit early" treatment.

 

[The Zermanator]

Hogwash.

The moment the Kovalchuk deal went public, everybody saw it for what it was: a blatant circumvention of the cap. Anybody NOT thinking that the league would eventually guard itself against that type of shady dealmaking is deluding themself.

Now can you argue that the new rules should only affect contracts going forward? Sure, and then the legal system can decide who's right. But professional sports leagues are (necessarily) far closer to dictatorships than democracies, and the NHL WANTING to prevent these types of deals was a given as soon as they started happening, because the contracts are objectively dishonest, and give teams an advantage they shouldn't have.

If a government makes something illegal, they don't tend to go and arrest everyone who did it before it was illegal. Punishing someone (or a team) for something that was done within the confines of the rules is just silly.

 

[njx9]

Hogwash.

The moment the Kovalchuk deal went public, everybody saw it for what it was: a blatant circumvention of the cap.

I doubt you'd find a single person anywhere who thought Z's deal would be so problematic because of an unknown, unrumored rule change that was backdated to affect previously signed contracts.

So hardly hogwash, unless we move some goalposts around first or completely ignore what was actually being discussed. Come on.

 

[Frk It]

"Let me just refrain from signing my star player to an awesome caphit by perfectly legal means, because MAYBE one day in the future the league is going to punish all these other savvy GM's that are doing so."

This is what Holland's mindset was supposed to be??? Give me a ****ing break. One of the most hindsight driven things I have ever read on here. Holland has messed up plenty, but this is just flat out not a case of it.

Also newflash -- Every team in the league is looking for ways to circumvent the cap any chance they can. It's the league's job to make sure they can't to begin with.

 

[Shaman464]

"Let me just refrain from signing my star player to an awesome caphit by perfectly legal means, because MAYBE one day in the future the league is going to punish all these other savvy GM's that are doing so."

This is what Holland's mindset was supposed to be??? Give me a ****ing break. One of the most hindsight driven things I have ever read on here. Holland has messed up plenty, but this is just flat out not a case of it.

Also newflash -- Every team in the league is looking for ways to circumvent the cap any chance they can. It's the league's job to make sure they can't to begin with.

Circumventing a cap he helped push into action. Sorry, but if he wasn't aware that the league would eventually punish teams for this, he lacks the foresight necessary to be a GM.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

It's ridiculous to complain about Z's contract. No reasonable person would have expected the NHL to retroactively punish teams for front loaded contracts.